MK9 meter-building possibilities?

[THTB]

I just thought of this...with MKDC on my mind and all. Basically a random observation based on NEC vids + MK9 stuff I've noticed.

Okay, so I'm pretty sure people know that the Rage meter in MKDC builds very fast when hit, as well as when an opponent blocks your attacks (This I just recently learned lol...I never realized it built so fast, particularly because I stopped following MKDC shortly after I quit). I know the devs said none of the meter building is final, but from the looks of it, meter building is looking possibly extremely similar to MKDC in MK9.

The building meter through blocked attacks is what I'm highlighting right here. A lot of the footage we've seen shows that the hit levels are 2D-style...high,mid, low and overhead. I do recall a vid where a jab was being crouch-blocked instead of whiffing completely as well.

Basically, what I'm trying to get at is, granted if this stuff does remain in the final builds, is basically I think jab pressure is gonna be extremely good in this game...and will be reminiscent of UMK3 (not in the sense that jabs work the exact way, but the positives of jabs in the environment will benefit the aggressor fairly heavily like UMK3).

One character I've noticed that could possibly benefits heavily from this is Scorpion. His entire FP string is heavy advantage on hit (and seems to have nice block advantage), possibly free hellfire as well. I do suspect his jab pressure is gonna be scary.

What does everyone think of this observation?

 

[GamerBlake90]

Rather spot-on observation there, THTB. It sort of makes the Rage Meter in MK vs DC a never-ending commodity, as nearly everyone only Breakers and never Rages and it therefore raises defensive capabilities a lot. However, as we know, the MK vs DC project was sort of rushed and left incomplete at the time WB merged with Midway (hence the Breaker combos when Breakers should only be for defensive purposes, not open up for more offense). That's why to me, the Rage Meter seemed to become a bit too "easy" to use in the game...if you get what I'm saying.

There'll probably be some similarities of MK vs DC's meter to the one in MK9, save that with the Breakers, we can only use them in the MIDDLE of a combo, not to stop one before it even starts like we could do in the previous game. This turned out to be a secure way to avoid offensive Breaker tactics and makes for a better mode of fighting. And of course, there's the X-ray and the strengthening of special attacks to be used with the meter. To me, this will provide for more expert levels of play in Mortal Kombat 9.

How fast the meter in MK9 will build, though, I'm not sure if it will be as fast as it was in MK vs DC. Like I said, MK vs DC was unpatched and its fighting system wasn't quite produced to the best levels it could have been at. Makes me think the build-up for the meter in MK9 will be a bit slower, but I could be wrong. I'd have to watch some gameplay videos again to be sure.

Still, you make an excellent point. The fact that even block damage will build meter will pressure players to try to evade the attacks more rather than blocked. Unfortunately, if they don't evade right, they just open themselves up for more damage. It truly comes down to a 50/50 game of, "Should I block or should I get the Hell away?" And since this will be on a 2D plane, evading attacks instead of blocking will NOT be as easy without 3D movement to help.

Should provide for a good fighting scene for us players!

 

[Sablicious]

As long as breakers are acquired quickly enough to mitigate the seeming air juggliness of the game (not Naruto level KnJ quickly though!), yet balanced enough not to allow for SF4-esque super (Ultra) use within the first 10 seconds of a round - in turn resulting in ridiculously and incongruously nerfed supers/Ultras in an effort to offset this silliness - then I'll be happy.

Ideally though, you shouldn't build meter too much from getting pummeled as it's essentially rewarding ineptitude, once again, a la SF4. And to gain access to moves that potentially do 50-75% damage through being outplayed flies in the face of the very concept of fight-gaming.

This is why I'd prefer X-rays to be like SNK 'desperation moves', where your health bar needs to be very low for them to be active. This might not work with the current MK2011 model however, so failing that, having an alternate, souped-up verison of the X-ray when you're on the precipice of death might be something to consider. Say, the same X-ray but with an extra hit or deux. If that's too hard to implement at this stage then you could simply imbued the move with a different hue (and up its damage output) to signify it's the DM X-ray as distinct from the standard one.

 

[MKF30]

I think it'll be different, but perhaps not THAT different...example, in the recent MK kast the MK testers and team said, in MKDC you builded up the meter fast going on offensive (cough The Flash, Shao Kahn*cough lol) to name a few examples off hand, Flash especially good lord his meter filled up in no time. With that being said, they confirmed and said that "this time it'll be different, if you're getting your ass handed to you your meter will build up faster then the attacker" and I can totally get this...they said they wanted to make it more of a defensive tool rather then offensive weapon.....

 

[Sablicious]

^ Yeah. Saw that.

Not sure how it will work if getting pummeled is the easiest way to get meter. It could lead to odd strategies of players deliberately taking damage to gain meter. Or worse, thre system could outright reward incompetence.

I just don't subscribe to the 'crutches for the weak' mantra. Even in old SNK games, where oftentimes your most powerful moves were available after having copped a beating, the executional prerequisite of a lot of those moves/games made these move prohibitive to lesser skilled players... if not the entire game itself - lol!

Fight games need to reward skilled play not scrubbery. Otherwise you end up with a 'Mario Kart Wii model' where hanging back/being pounded is a valid strategy. Stoopid.

 

[Dark_Rob]

Basically, what I'm trying to get at is, granted if this stuff does remain in the final builds, is basically I think jab pressure is gonna be extremely good in this game...and will be reminiscent of UMK3 (not in the sense that jabs work the exact way, but the positives of jabs in the environment will benefit the aggressor fairly heavily like UMK3).

I honestly dont think jab pressure will be anywhere near as predominant in MK9 as it is in UMK3. There are 2 primary factors that make jab pressure work so well in UMK3. The Run cancel and the fact that the throw is a by product of close low punches(like you use in run jabs)
The run cancel is what makes it possible to "stay on top" of your opponent, and opens up a plethora of rushdown options. MK9 obviously doesnt have a run button it has a dash, so unless you can dash cancel your jab recovery(an interesting idea actually) I suspect jab pressure will be more like it is in MK2. Its effective in MK2 to, but not to anywhere near the extent it is in UMK3. You can win matches on run jabs alone in UMK3.
Now onto the throw. Let me ask you this, why would I continue to try and pressure with Jabs when I can just go for the throw? At best I get the throw, at worst it gets teched. Think about it, in SSF4 if you start a block string on an opponent and they continue blocking 9 times out of 10 you will try a tick throw to catch them napping. I think it will be similar in MK9. Its just a natural result of having a dedicated throw command as opposed to a throw being a by product of a close in low punch. Im not saying one way is better than the other, only that they lead to different strategies. Having a dedicated throw command just invites throw mixups, its only natural.
Just ask Tom Brady about Storm's throw mixups with Raiden in MKDC.

 

[Juggs]

I honestly dont think jab pressure will be anywhere near as predominant in MK9 as it is in UMK3. There are 2 primary factors that make jab pressure work so well in UMK3. The Run cancel and the fact that the throw is a by product of close low punches(like you use in run jabs)
The run cancel is what makes it possible to "stay on top" of your opponent, and opens up a plethora of rushdown options. MK9 obviously doesnt have a run button it has a dash, so unless you can dash cancel your jab recovery(an interesting idea actually) I suspect jab pressure will be more like it is in MK2. Its effective in MK2 to, but not to anywhere near the extent it is in UMK3. You can win matches on run jabs alone in UMK3.
Now onto the throw. Let me ask you this, why would I continue to try and pressure with Jabs when I can just go for the throw? At best I get the throw, at worst it gets teched. Think about it, in SSF4 if you start a block string on an opponent and they continue blocking 9 times out of 10 you will try a tick throw to catch them napping. I think it will be similar in MK9. Its just a natural result of having a dedicated throw command as opposed to a throw being a by product of a close in low punch. Im not saying one way is better than the other, only that they lead to different strategies. Having a dedicated throw command just invites throw mixups, its only natural.
Just ask Tom Brady about Storm's throw mixups with Raiden in MKDC.

You can also cancel jabs into block, which everyone knows as "kara jabs". Even though not a lot of people like the idea of kara jabs in UMK3, I really like them and hope there some sort of kara jab in MK9. If they do implement this, they will have to fix it a bit though so it's not as OP as in UMK3. I'm specifically talking about the corner. For those that don't know, you can jab cancel an opponent in the corner, and if you time it right, it's an easy infinite.

I just hope they've considered MK2 and UMK3's gameplay as far as buffering and canceling moves.

 

[Dark_Rob]

You can also cancel jabs into block, which everyone knows as "kara jabs". Even though not a lot of people like the idea of kara jabs in UMK3, I really like them and hope there some sort of kara jab in MK9. If they do implement this, they will have to fix it a bit though so it's not as OP as in UMK3. I'm specifically talking about the corner. For those that don't know, you can jab cancel an opponent in the corner, and if you time it right, it's an easy infinite.

I just hope they've considered MK2 and UMK3's gameplay as far as buffering and canceling moves.

Oh id bet money you will be able to Kara Jab in MK9. I dont know about the 3d MK's but even in MK1 you could Kara Jab. Personally I love Kara Jabs in UMK3 to. But the run is what really made jab pressure so nasty in UMK3.

 

[THTB]

Throws in MK9 are duckable, and the hit levels are nothing like MKDC, but more along the lines of SF, meaning jabs hit crouch blockers. I honestly think throws will only be useful when an opponent attempts to stand block something to get a better punish or getting them to look for overheads. Otherwise, I doubt it'd be that useful.

 

[Juggs]

Throws in MK9 are duckable, and the hit levels are nothing like MKDC, but more along the lines of SF, meaning jabs hit crouch blockers. I honestly think throws will only be useful when an opponent attempts to stand block something to get a better punish or getting them to look for overheads. Otherwise, I doubt it'd be that useful.

So, you can just stay crouch blocked to avoid being thrown? There better be overheads in this game then.

 

[THTB]

And there are. But from the looks of it, they're not that fast, though they do launch on a lot of the ones I've seen.

 

[Juggs]

And there are. But from the looks of it, they're not that fast, though they do launch on a lot of the ones I've seen.

Interesting, so can you block a JK if you're crouch blocking? Or is JK considered as an overhead? Also, has there been any anti-airs seen in videos that isn't an uppercut?

 

[THTB]

I'm pretty sure high-angle jabs are gonna be good for AA...I know one of Kung's kicks are good AA, same with Cyrax, Scorpion has air throw. Sindel's scream likely will be a good one, as will Kabal's spin.

 

[Check]

Yea sorry, no to jab pressure unless the block is as screwed up as MKDC.

Getting meter when hit is skillless and embarassing. You can control the meter and round by inflicting damage, then getting hit. Just look at how awful Flash vs GL is MKDC. Complete waste of time.

Rewarding actual skill like pulling off combos would be much better way to build that meter instead of getting hit to build it. Theres a cardinal rule in game balancing that says "Part of fair-play is giving your opponent a chance to turn the tables if they are getting pummeled." Fair-play? Really? Sounds more like scrub talk. But they are taking this route because of that rule, and instead of it helping its hurting. So first and foremost that needs to go.

Meter buildup for different things:

Doing combos = builds enhanced special meter
Good defense = builds breaker meter
and Xrays are dumb and slow down the gameplay too much like KK or freefall, so who cares! LOL, anyway, this meter could be a combination of the above two.


of course things like spamming specials is good for building meter, but building their meter instead of yours for defending properly? me thinks not. (Think Flash 31 LOL)

Anywho, thats all i have. I prefer no meter, like MKDA. And with great blocking, like MKDA.

 

[techn9ne]

I wish that they would add in parrys again and that be a way for building meter. I can't tell you how many times I havent gotten the first hit in mkdc, only to launch a character for a 40-50% combo and I still don't have a breaker and they have full meter... I know they are doing this for the casual player and so that someone on a lower skill level can fight against someone of a high skill level. Pretty much any match with GL is pointless, Its a catch 22. get close and add pressure and you eat a breaker combo, stay away you let him build meter by spamming df3, stay in the midrange and you are gonna eat the grab because of how fast it comes out.

 

[JagoMIH]

no meter
no breakers
no bullshit

keep it simple keep it oldschool

 

[Momotaro]

Getting meter when hit is skillless and embarassing.

I agree, but that's just the business model these days. And it works.

SF4 does it. BB does it. TvC does it. KOFXIII does it. MvC3 does it. See a pattern here?

All new games. All made in the New Generation of Fighters. It sucks but what can we do, ya know?

 

[MKF30]

I honestly dont think jab pressure will be anywhere near as predominant in MK9 as it is in UMK3. There are 2 primary factors that make jab pressure work so well in UMK3. The Run cancel and the fact that the throw is a by product of close low punches(like you use in run jabs)
The run cancel is what makes it possible to "stay on top" of your opponent, and opens up a plethora of rushdown options. MK9 obviously doesnt have a run button it has a dash, so unless you can dash cancel your jab recovery(an interesting idea actually) I suspect jab pressure will be more like it is in MK2. Its effective in MK2 to, but not to anywhere near the extent it is in UMK3. You can win matches on run jabs alone in UMK3.
Now onto the throw. Let me ask you this, why would I continue to try and pressure with Jabs when I can just go for the throw? At best I get the throw, at worst it gets teched. Think about it, in SSF4 if you start a block string on an opponent and they continue blocking 9 times out of 10 you will try a tick throw to catch them napping. I think it will be similar in MK9. Its just a natural result of having a dedicated throw command as opposed to a throw being a by product of a close in low punch. Im not saying one way is better than the other, only that they lead to different strategies. Having a dedicated throw command just invites throw mixups, its only natural.
Just ask Tom Brady about Storm's throw mixups with Raiden in MKDC.

Yeah, I agree with this ^. Also as a big Raiden guy myself in MKDC during Xbox's reign with that game, I ALWAYS mixed up teleports, jabs, pokes, throws etc...worked like a charm.

But yeah especially with your UMK3 vs. MK9 standpoint, I highly doubt you'll be able to jab cancel while dashing "constantly" like you can in UMK3 due to the run and kara jabbing tactics alone, is why I feel personally MK9 will be a little bit more "even" meaning, since you can't just win on kara jabbing like you could in UMK3 with little defensive tools to counter that, in MK9 I see it being more so like MK1 and MK2 but with a dash....like MKDC.

The MK team did say we'll be able to block cancel into moves, I'm sure cancel jabs into block etc but I definitely agree and don't see any UMK3 smothering kara jab situations happening...with a dash I just don't see how it's possible, at least not nearly the same or aggressively as UMK3's methods with run and jab cancelling.

Juggernaut, yeah dude there's not many but here's a good vid of seeing Scorp AA via his jabs into punishing combos

He does is a few times in this video.

 

[Sablicious]

no meter
no breakers
no bullshit

keep it simple keep it oldschool

I'd agree with this as long as there were some 'desperation' -type moves a la SNK games. But this would have to be mitigated by reasonably difficult comman inputs and/or small windows of opportunity to land such moves. Otherwise it's just rewarding scrubbery, like Ultras in SF4.

So, you can just stay crouch blocked to avoid being thrown? There better be overheads in this game then.

Super SF4's Gouken and his Demon Flip dive kick would like to endorse this comment!

 

[chrisofrays]

no breakers

i love the meter but not really liking how the breaker system is looking. it seems that you can break the 1st attack.

at 4:40 reptile breaks a punch from night wolf

hopefully you can only use it once per round and it isn't brain dead when it comes to the input and execution. maybe make them whiff when timed incorrectly and leave you open for punishment

 

[MKF30]

They confirmed via the last MK Kast part 4 that unlike previous MK games with the breaker, you'll be able to "not accidentally use it on one move" and instead it will work better as it'll only break once the second hit hits you....so this is good and an improvement, no more accidental breaking when you don't want to.

 

[Graveyard]

In mkast 2.4 Paulo confirmed dash canceling your jabs. I had an idea, if you can dash cancel your jabs what if you could dash cancel your simple combo chains? So lets say you do hp>hp>hk xx dash cancel xx overhead normal, this might set up some kind of anti-turtling if the overhead was fast enough kinda like runjabs juiced. There would be more options to escape because of breakers and wakeup specials but it seems like this could really up the pace of the game.

 

[THTB]

In mkast 2.4 Paulo confirmed dash canceling your jabs. I had an idea, if you can dash cancel your jabs what if you could dash cancel your simple combo chains? So lets say you do hp>hp>hk xx dash cancel xx overhead normal, this might set up some kind of anti-turtling if the overhead was fast enough kinda like runjabs juiced. There would be more options to escape because of breakers and wakeup specials but it seems like this could really up the pace of the game.

This is exactly what popped into my mind when they revealed dash cancelling normals and cancelling dash with anything. I wouldn't be surprised if pressure is super scary based on that alone.

 

[MKF30]

This is exactly what popped into my mind when they revealed dash cancelling normals and cancelling dash with anything. I wouldn't be surprised if pressure is super scary based on that alone.

Interesting theory, although I have ne of my own. I think that despite what this games dashing options turn ou tto be, based on what I've seen and what the MK team has said and stressed about "both players being on equal ground and the defender having options to escape"

I can't possibly imagine seeing a more aggressive rush game in MK9 as oppose to UMK3's run button which made for a devastating rush game with little options for the defensive player to do much against. MK9 I do believe will be more "equal fotting" in terms of aggressive players vs defensive.

The run is easily far easier to cancel from then a dash.

I like and fully support this however and agree with the MK team's reasons here. They know UMK3 is a great game, but I think they also know an aggressive player in that game has the edge over the defensive player, this game they want to make it more balanced. Fine by me.

 

[Juggs]

I can't possibly imagine seeing a more aggressive rush game in MK9 as oppose to UMK3's run button which made for a devastating rush game with little options for the defensive player to do much against

One can hope.