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MK11 Johnny Cage General Discussion

Wrath0594

Steam profile: 76561198102032134
Yeah I wasn't trolling at all. Johnny's d4 is probably his best feature. It low profiles and beats out most character fastest buttons. He can get in fairly easily as well.

The only two characters who really need nerfs are Geras and Erron. Scorpion's mb teleport on block should go, but sub zero is fine. Tom Brady even made a video explaining how his 50 50's can be fuzzy blocked. And I did it without watching it first.
Even if it couldn’t be fuzzied, it’s unsafe. That’s what separates mk11 SZ from MkX 50/50 characters. The low string is safe, but that and the overhead combo into iceball are -15. Didn’t know it could be fuzzied, thought the OH was too fast, but I’ll have to try it. The thing about fuzzyguarding is that it’s primarily used with strings, not starters. If his overhead is unseeable (faster than 20 frames give or take) it can’t be fuzzied, because you don’t know when it will come out, unlike say Jade f2,1 or f2 low fireball mixup, another one you can fuzzy. I’m sure you understand how fuzzyguarding works, but again, I’ll have to see Tom’s vid and give it a try.

Back to your original comment, I hope you read my response as well as the others. No one is saying the weak characters shouldn’t be fixed. But you’re in the Johnny Cage threads so of course we’re talking about Johnny Cage issues. All of the fixes we suggest come with the assumption that the rest of the cast will also receive balance changes. I thought that went without saying, honestly.
Why would Scorp's tele on block go?
If you want the most thorough explanaion, watch Tom Brady’s video on this. Basically the window to wait until scorp can’t amp, but before he can block is extremely small, and a move that oppressively dominates neutral shouldn’t have such a mindgame attached to it. It should just be punishable. You can’t throw projectiles. You cannot jump. And you cannot AA Scorpion. That’s huge. Blocking jump ins means free mixups between all his strings and both throws.

No disrespect, but you need to play a few high level scorpions, my guy. Similarly, I thought Erron was A+ tier, not S. Today I fought someone who knew how to use gun cancels. Suffice to say, now I see what the big deal is.
 
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Johnny is probably the only character to have a variation that offers less tools than the default version. Dizzy is supposed to be part of the balancing team of the game in NRS studios but how did he approve this variation to be included in the release build ? And especially to Johnny ?

I took a few extra training sessions with Showstopper two days ago. When neutral ducking, the shades (which is a mid) whiffes everywhere except at the closest range possible and the end of the range. So 80% of the range of that mid projectile can be neutral ducked. Talking about range, why is the range of this mid-but-not-really-mid projectile that short ? In Johnny's reveal trailer, he had a fullscreen Throwing Shades. It would have been understandable to nerf it if the move was too good to be fullscreen, but no it sucks even at short range. Using the throwing shades is a death wish.

And of course the Say Cheese move, the worst 2-slots special in the game that replaces one of Johnny best tools. I talked a lot about that move and nothing has changed.

At least I'm glad that Shock Jolt is a viable variation.
 

Derocus

'The Cage Mage'
D4/throw or 124 when they stop mashing.

I sometimes crossup j2 cause you're plus 5 so a lot of d1's will whiff and you get free pressure.

If they're incredibly mashy I d1 np mb
You legit covered all the bases there. Good answer, dude.
d1xxnutpunch is my favourite stupid gimmick. I've done it 3 times in a row on multiple occasions now because these online Subs have 0 respect for Johnny boy.

I'll tell you what doesn't work after a nutpunch restand, walking or dashing back to bait a whiff. D4's will catch you ez pz, Sub Zero's is especially fuckin' extendo-leg.
NJP 124 isn't the worst choice, but these D2 mashers, dude.
If someone respects Johnny, it's actually an easier win. But if they've got no respect and are constantly (and most likely unintentionally) low-teching Johnny's highs, that's when I'm straight up not having a good time.
 

DrFolmer

AKA Uncle Kano
If someone respects Johnny, it's actually an easier win. But if they've got no respect and are constantly (and most likely unintentionally) low-teching Johnny's highs, that's when I'm straight up not having a good time.
THIS!

It's no secrets pokes are REALLY strong in this game - like have you seen Noob's midscreen d4!? No but seriously, Johnny's d3 is CRAZY GOOD as well. The pokes do help out with throw mixups. F4 and F3 are both good tools (F4 actually packing good range). I honestly like him as a fairly good neutral, footsie character. I was a bit skeptical about NP only being +5 initially but it's okay.

I think he looks solid on paper. The problem for me arises when we start to discuss Krushing Blows. For a lot of the established (is it too early? I dont think so) higher tier characters we can observe that their krushing blows are designed to compliment their respective gameplan. Jax has his traditional get in your face and overwhelm you with good normals - on top of that he has a Krushing Blow throw to reward him for succesfully being in his opponents face to generate heat.

And then we have Erron Black who has his dropkick Krushing Blow which compliments his slide/dropkick mixups. You get the picture.

Johnny's Krushing Blow game is virtually nonexistent. I really like the fact that he has some insane plus strings in his kit - I just rarely experience people ever blocking high against Johnny. Blocking low deals with his krushing blow in f43, Blocking low deals with his low starter string. It's just particularly hard for Johnny to make comebacks with the limited opportunities available

As with the quote, it's so frustrating to play against people who just mash pokes at every waking moment. We cant use our fast normals to punush them (since our fast ones are high) and f4 is too slow. I just end up throwing a d3 into throw, but then we have the guys who just have to throw out at least 3-4 d1's that somehow go under my throw. It's really not pleasant when your opponent doesn't respect you LOL

It would be cool if we could have some proper Krushing Blows, maybe involving his throw game since it's such an integral part of his gameplan

And holy s*** his other variation is garbage
 
Becuase I havent seen that much high level gameplay from him. Curious what you guys throw out mid range? So far ive basically been doing B34, F4 into caged rage, f3 into kicks or or f3 dash up grab and D4 jailing etc. and up close 124/12xxcaged. and d1xxnp
 
I tried ranked last night and it wasn't as scary as I thought. Won twice despite playing like a**. Honestly thought I'd get curbstomped by Tom Brady or something, but it looks like a lot a good variety of peeps are on there or the matchmaking was going easy on me. Here's the games.
 
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M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
Mid range it depends on the match-up.

Does the opponent have an 11 frame, or a 9 frame mid? -> Char select or spam d4 and hope you kill him with 50 of these because that's all you get.
P.s. parry doesn't work as the startup is crap.

Otherwise, yes, you can do f4, b3, you know..actually play the game as intended.
 
I really wish i thought to record the matches ,but i was running sets with this kotal who was insane. Kotal has this really long range mid that is -7, but he would just jump out of it so it was hard to punish. I found i can punish with s1, but it's frame tight, which is harder online. The problem is is that kotal can go into a low ender which is unsafe. The start up on this string is 19 frames but it's almost impossible to whiff punish or stuff due to it's abusurd range.

The problem is It's a guess whether or not he went for the low ender, which will blow me up if i read the jump instead. He would play at a range where none of my buttons could hit, as his range allows him to do that.I would sometimes catch him with f44 but I had a hard time coverting into nutpunch.

I noticed forceballs were decent, but eventually he would close the gap and I would just get mixed in the corner. Next time I run sets against him I'll make sure to record. Sorry if this sounds really vague as I'm guessing not many have played the kotal matchup.

I forgot to mention the -7 mid is completely safe if he decides to block. He didn't tend to block after but its another option thats entirely safe.
 
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lionheart21

Its Game Over, Man
THIS!

It's no secrets pokes are REALLY strong in this game - like have you seen Noob's midscreen d4!? No but seriously, Johnny's d3 is CRAZY GOOD as well. The pokes do help out with throw mixups. F4 and F3 are both good tools (F4 actually packing good range). I honestly like him as a fairly good neutral, footsie character. I was a bit skeptical about NP only being +5 initially but it's okay.

I think he looks solid on paper. The problem for me arises when we start to discuss Krushing Blows. For a lot of the established (is it too early? I dont think so) higher tier characters we can observe that their krushing blows are designed to compliment their respective gameplan. Jax has his traditional get in your face and overwhelm you with good normals - on top of that he has a Krushing Blow throw to reward him for succesfully being in his opponents face to generate heat.

And then we have Erron Black who has his dropkick Krushing Blow which compliments his slide/dropkick mixups. You get the picture.

Johnny's Krushing Blow game is virtually nonexistent. I really like the fact that he has some insane plus strings in his kit - I just rarely experience people ever blocking high against Johnny. Blocking low deals with his krushing blow in f43, Blocking low deals with his low starter string. It's just particularly hard for Johnny to make comebacks with the limited opportunities available

As with the quote, it's so frustrating to play against people who just mash pokes at every waking moment. We cant use our fast normals to punush them (since our fast ones are high) and f4 is too slow. I just end up throwing a d3 into throw, but then we have the guys who just have to throw out at least 3-4 d1's that somehow go under my throw. It's really not pleasant when your opponent doesn't respect you LOL

It would be cool if we could have some proper Krushing Blows, maybe involving his throw game since it's such an integral part of his gameplan

And holy s*** his other variation is garbage
Thus far, his main comeback tool seems to stem from his Fatal Blow cancels. If Krushing Blows weren't a thing, or if he had some good options of his own. he'd be in a really good place. But as you said, characters like Geras, Erron and Jax have good Krushing Blows, as well as an overall solid toolset.
 
I hate to assume that johhny just gets bodied in the match up. I feel like there has to be something I'm not doing. Me getting beat by long range buttons can't just a problem that cage has. It's worth noting that this might have been the best player I've encountered in mk11 yet.

When I was able to pressure I couldn't get anything off of a knockdown as id have to make the read between the roll or his up3. Had nothing to do with kotal. In hindsight I should've been hitting more nutpunches but I could really only land his f44 and pokes due to his footsie range

Edit: After looking at the kotal community I've learned that once you do pressure him he is quite bad up close. I think these losses came down to this player's ability to play at kotal's range, and his ability to play solid defense against my pressure despite kotal having a rough time defensively. I still think after labbing I stand a better chance, but I think I needed to dismantle his defense more than anything
 
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Wigy

There it is...
@Chad Ironchest the only Kotal I've seen annihilated me so I believe you lol. Would walk backwards and clap my cheeks every time I pressed a button
Pretty sure you can zone him out then poke him to death if he thinks about doing anything.

Seems his only punish for it is whiff punish f3 (the low I think that's the input)

D3/4 on block push him out of range of his pokes.

Worked against legit every kotal I've played
 

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
Finally got all Johnny brutalities.

Here is a video with the movelist for all of them.
Youtube is still processing it so you won't get the full video for a couple of hours, but it's late and it will probably work while I sleep.
You can see the movelist though so you don't have to wait.


It follows with a lengthy crapfest where I try to do them all for a showcase.
I eventually succeed but barely because it's 3 AM and I can barely see any more so I dropped everything.
Also I literally exploded from rage because of the glasses brutality.

I will probably edit it sometime to cut out the crap but now I need some sleep.

Enjoy.
 

lionheart21

Its Game Over, Man
Mic Check and No Hollywood Strings Attached are his easiest since they're actually the ones that make sense with his playstyle
 

Wrath0594

Steam profile: 76561198102032134
Looking for an easier version of the combo B34, bd3 ampd, dash b2, F3 Bd3
The ender is F4 bd3, not f3. You might find using s2 instead of b2 easier. The trick is to cancel the dash into b2 very early, then dash f4 for the ender.

Only other thing you can do if neither b2 or s2 is consistent for you is cut it out entirely and just go straight into F4 db3 after the amp.
 

Derocus

'The Cage Mage'
Finally got all Johnny brutalities.

Here is a video with the movelist for all of them.
Youtube is still processing it so you won't get the full video for a couple of hours, but it's late and it will probably work while I sleep.
You can see the movelist though so you don't have to wait.


It follows with a lengthy crapfest where I try to do them all for a showcase.
I eventually succeed but barely because it's 3 AM and I can barely see any more so I dropped everything.
Also I literally exploded from rage because of the glasses brutality.

I will probably edit it sometime to cut out the crap but now I need some sleep.

Enjoy.
Dude, sick.
But Johnny doesn't even get a nutpunch brutality? Feels bad man.
 
Is it me or is Johnny way to honest he has no dirty his parry is slow, everything starts up high, garbage kbs, he cant juggle 2 bars like kung lao, I honestly have an easier time playing ranked with lao than Johnny and I really want to play Johnny because of shimmies and staggers. Everyone's tier lists have johny up higher than lao, but I really cant see it being true.
 

FoughtDragon01

Ask me about my Mileena agenda.
I know he's got more pressing issues right now, but could NRS make it so that his Brass Knuckles buff doesn't go away post-Finish Him? It'd make comboing into his 'Say Uncle' brutality SOOOO much easier.
 
Cage's second variation and his crushing blows need to be completely reworked. His F344 and his F21 strings need to be changed to MID attacks. I have almost 400 matches with Cage, and while I win more than I lose, he's unplayable at a high level. You can only "condition" somebody so much with F4 until they eventually catch on. Anybody who regularly spams D1 wins.
 

EntropicByDesign

It's all so very confusing.
Curious how people are finding his Tournament variations in general ranked play/competitive sets?

I was the most hyped for JC out of anyone pre-launch based on his amazing design. I've never been a Cage player, but after that action figure win screen? Sheeeeeeeeeit... But his actual gameplay, as it stands at the moment.. I'm just not sure about. I'm also a middling player tho, and readily admit I dunno shit about shit.. So, curious how others are doing with him, and how they think he stacks up?