Mind Games (patch)

[THTB]

I said a number of wakeup attacks...I didn't specifically say Raiden's would be stopped. Raiden's indeed does win in that situation.

 

[GERNBURGS]

I can't break throws while holding block, so I assume just about every character has a ridiculous throw game. It's almost to the point where I'm ready to stop playing the game.

Are you serious?!? Breaking throws in this game is fine, I think the throw system is pretty good. Only a complete scrub would complain "I can't break throws so I'm gonna quit". Stop posting about your scrub mentality. In a game like MK, throwing is absolutely critical to the entire structure of the game. The entire game revolves around the mix-up between mid/low/throw. You HAVE TO have throws, otherwise, the game is oversimplified, further, if throws are too weak, they won't be used over all of the strings and jump-ins so the game will just be attack, block, attack, block... Just wait for your turn to attack and block, that would suck.

 

[DrDogg]

I said a number of wakeup attacks...I didn't specifically say Raiden's would be stopped. Raiden's indeed does win in that situation.

Yeah... that's why I asked for examples. I gave Raiden's example as one I was doing frame data theories with. So what wake-up attacks do you know Jax can block?

Are you serious?!? Breaking throws in this game is fine, I think the throw system is pretty good. Only a complete scrub would complain "I can't break throws so I'm gonna quit". Stop posting about your scrub mentality. In a game like MK, throwing is absolutely critical to the entire structure of the game. The entire game revolves around the mix-up between mid/low/throw. You HAVE TO have throws, otherwise, the game is oversimplified, further, if throws are too weak, they won't be used over all of the strings and jump-ins so the game will just be attack, block, attack, block... Just wait for your turn to attack and block, that would suck.

Wow... guess you've never played Tekken, Soul Calibur, SF or any other game in which you can break throws on reaction?

I can assure you, I'm no scrub at this game, nor do I have a scrub mentality. I can also assure you that I can probably beat you with a high percentage of throws due to the fact that you can't break throws while holding block.

 

[R00KI30FTH3Y3AR]

You know, in regards to throws, I actually kind of like how they're used in this game. The above examples you cited, Dr Dogg with Tekken, SC, SF etc. are all prime examples of why I think this system is so much better. The throw is virtually useless to me if it can't be used almost as often as you would any other kind of attack. The occasional teching that you get in MK9's 50/50 isn't too bad overall I think. I haven't really seen basic throws have much use since Third Strike, and that was only because of kara-throwing that they were even that effective. Command throws don't count here because MK doesn't have any other than Cyrax's nerfed b+1 (Not counting Jax's or Kano's since those are X-Ray specials).

How does this pertain to Jax, specifically? It's simple, the throw is one of his best and most unpredictable moves. When I played THTB's Jax at Summer Slam, one of his most effective tactics other than the low block strings he'd use after I got knocked down was his five-hit throw string. Given that Jax has constant pressure, but no real mid-screen game to speak of, that 13% five hit throw string might not seem like much at first, but when it comes down to the wire it's all that much more important to finish your opponent off for good.

 

[DrDogg]

You know, in regards to throws, I actually kind of like how they're used in this game. The above examples you cited, Dr Dogg with Tekken, SC, SF etc. are all prime examples of why I think this system is so much better. The throw is virtually useless to me if it can't be used almost as often as you would any other kind of attack.

You can use a throw as often as any other attack in fighting games that have proper throw teching. The difference is how effective the throws are. In the case of MK9, throws are more effective than almost any other attack. They're unblockable, have good priority, execute faster than most of the attacks in the game, and if the opponent is blocking, the throw is guaranteed. If you tech a throw, you're safe, and if a throw is ducked, the opponent has to be expecting the throw and attacking before the animation comes to an end to be able to punish it. Even then, punishment isn't very much for a vast majority of the cast.

There isn't a single attack in MK9 that compares to how effective throws are. You can't tell me that's a good thing. You also can't tell me that allowing people to tech while holding block would drastically change the throw game. Everything I listed above would still apply except that instead of getting a guaranteed throw if the opponent is blocking, you get a true 50/50 throw attempt, IF and only IF the opponent is fast enough to react to the 10-frame throw animation.

IMO throws are currently overpowered, but allowing me to tech while holding block would tone throws down a bit, while still allowing them to be one of the best attacks in the game.

 

[69beastlyninja]

Can you give me some examples so I can get a general frame data outlook on this? Raiden's Superman is 8 frames (12 at full screen). Jax's d+1 is 6 frames, but when you include the delay needed to make the GP fake feel real (meaning it would connect with proper wake-up timing if it wasn't canceled), plus the 1-3 frames of recovery I'm assuming d+1 has on whiff, I'm thinking Superman wins.

You're right, but this is Raiden we are talking about. Isn't he basically the exception to everything? I don't have much offline experience, but playing online Raiden's I will just get close to them on their wake up and block. If I see that they are not going to use Superman then I start throwing out f4,1,3 to make them use a wake up attack more often. Basically I either guess right and get around 30% on a blocked Superman/ 15% or 4-5% chip damage. If they get me with Superman then I lose 10% max. If neither person attacks then it's pretty much neutral and grab n' punch will pretty much beat out anything of his besides pokes or a back jump. I know that this is probably really late but I thought I would just post it anyways.