Mind Games (patch)

[DrDogg]

I only use Reptile when it comes to tournaments. Doesn't mean I can't learn other characters just to have a little fun.

Dogg, f413 into dash punch would help so much, not because of a high/low mixup, but because of his throws. Like I said, Jax is the only character who can throw in either direction and still get you to the corner because of how multislam works. f413 is to get your opponent off of neutral crouch in attempts to avoid throws. Air throw grabs jumps. Pretty much it's like his moveset is designed around landing multislam. Idk, that's what's been working for me. Idk about you.

Kano has tick throw setups, from my experience, Jax doesn't have anything as effective. So if Jax was designed around connecting his throw, why is Kano (and many other characters for that matter) much better at it?

What I've been doing is trying to maintain pressure with a blocked Gotcha so that I can use the frame adv to go for a tick throw. It doesn't work all that well, especially against heavy zoning characters.

 

[THTB]

That's what I tried at first, too, but the problem I ran into was that there was really not much of a reason for the opponent to stand block.

But yeah, that's what Jax seems to be aimed towards. I wanna hit the lab now and find some tick grab setups.

 

[Jade101]

That's what I tried at first, too, but the problem I ran into was that there was really not much of a reason for the opponent to stand block.

But yeah, that's what Jax seems to be aimed towards. I wanna hit the lab now and find some tick grab setups.

You cant win a tournament with jax, it's fucked up.

 

[scorpiomagnum]

My main strategy w/ Jax revolves around getting mid GP off.

Most knockdowns put your opponent in range for this move (air grab, uppercut, dash punch, f+22,b+1 into air gotcha which is my main punisher, f+4 into overhead).

I like to throw Jax's projectile or dash punch when they get up for the first couple of knockdowns. If then try to jump or wakeup attack, they will get hit more oftern than not.

I try to force them to duck or block on wakeup then it opens up mid GP.

After mid GP, depending on the distance I will dash and combo (f+22,b+1 into air gotcha), jk into air grab, or simple air grab (usually after f+22,b+1 into air gotcha to mid GP since I'm further away.

Then the mindgame starts over again.

Also ground gotcha is a great wakeup option and can even stuff lots of wakeup attacks as well and I believe parries.

 

[THTB]

You cant win a tournament with jax, it's fucked up.

How about instead of whining and theorycrafting about how Jax sucks, you play with him, find as many ways to exploit his strengths and conceal his weaknesses as you can, and try and win a tournament? All I've seen you do in this entire topic, as well as any other topic where you can talk about Jax, is go "Jax sucks! Wah wah wah!" Stop it.

Good players don't always win tournaments or place high because of how good their character is. They get up there because they put in the work to get better. Yeb took Gen to a high placing at a major, and the character was considered low tier. Kuroda in Japan was doing extremely well with Q in 3S. ST has had multiple instances where a low tier has done well at tourneys. Why? Because players actually worked.

Stop asking to be spoonfed your favorite character with top tier status, sit down and get better.

 

[EVB SomeCubanGuy]

How about instead of whining and theorycrafting about how Jax sucks, you play with him, find as many ways to exploit his strengths and conceal his weaknesses as you can, and try and win a tournament? All I've seen you do in this entire topic, as well as any other topic where you can talk about Jax, is go "Jax sucks! Wah wah wah!" Stop it.

Good players don't always win tournaments or place high because of how good their character is. They get up there because they put in the work to get better. Yeb took Gen to a high placing at a major, and the character was considered low tier. Kuroda in Japan was doing extremely well with Q in 3S. ST has had multiple instances where a low tier has done well at tourneys. Why? Because players actually worked.

Stop asking to be spoonfed your favorite character with top tier status, sit down and get better.

THIS! I can attest to this...I've been playing Baraka since launch, and all I heard was how much he was unplayable. Then the first hotfix came out and completely overhauled the character. Went into the lab with him for a few weeks, played some offline casuals, went to CEO with him and ended up nearly making top 16 out of over 120 entrants. Low tier doesn't mean a thing if you have matchup knowledge and experience with your character. Trust me.

 

[DrDogg]

My main strategy w/ Jax revolves around getting mid GP off.

Most knockdowns put your opponent in range for this move (air grab, uppercut, dash punch, f+22,b+1 into air gotcha which is my main punisher, f+4 into overhead).

I like to throw Jax's projectile or dash punch when they get up for the first couple of knockdowns. If then try to jump or wakeup attack, they will get hit more oftern than not.

I try to force them to duck or block on wakeup then it opens up mid GP.

After mid GP, depending on the distance I will dash and combo (f+22,b+1 into air gotcha), jk into air grab, or simple air grab (usually after f+22,b+1 into air gotcha to mid GP since I'm further away.

Then the mindgame starts over again.

Also ground gotcha is a great wakeup option and can even stuff lots of wakeup attacks as well and I believe parries.

Um... what happens when the opponent uses an invincible wake-up attack? Even if for some reason the opponent doesn't want to use an invincible wake-up, it's not hard to react to ground pound, because it's so slow. I'd just get up crouching to punish your Dash Punch, and if you did ground pound, I'd just jump back, use some sort of aerial attack (Kitana iAF), or just a quick attack to interrupt the 40-frame ground pound (depending on meaty timing).

That's what I tried at first, too, but the problem I ran into was that there was really not much of a reason for the opponent to stand block.

But yeah, that's what Jax seems to be aimed towards. I wanna hit the lab now and find some tick grab setups.

Agreed. There's no reason to stand block against Jax, which is a big problem. That's why I mentioned he should have an overhead mid-string that you can't react to. At least that would allow me to combo into Gotcha on a block string to maintain pressure.

THIS! I can attest to this...I've been playing Baraka since launch, and all I heard was how much he was unplayable. Then the first hotfix came out and completely overhauled the character. Went into the lab with him for a few weeks, played some offline casuals, went to CEO with him and ended up nearly making top 16 out of over 120 entrants. Low tier doesn't mean a thing if you have matchup knowledge and experience with your character. Trust me.

But you're talking about after Baraka received a pretty big buff. I don't even know if I'd call him low tier anymore. He's certainly better than Jax at the moment.

Skill is a huge factor in doing well at tournaments, but your character choice also makes an impact. I would be shocked to see someone make top 16 at Evo with Jax in his current state. He just doesn't have the tools to deal with a lot of characters.

 

[chrisofrays]

ANYWAY. Chrisofrays you asked earlier if it would be broken if the gotcha grab left an opponent in a stagger stat..did you mean as opposed to knocking someone down? Cuz i think it would be a good idea as it would limit the opponents options since wake up moves wouldnt be the problem (correct me if i'm wrong) and the only thing they could really do is jump..but I can see how that could turn into a cyrax bomb trap to be honest. Cuz thats free damage you know? I honestly think his ground pounds should be a bit faster and i would be straight with him. THTB made a good point about the dash punch too

i had in mind either two new uses for gotcha grab, both cases would stagger the opponent rather than knocking them down. the first could be that it gives you a chance of a mixup like cages nut punch, the other is that instead ground pound would actually combo. but of course reduce the damage where needed and make it that the juggle would only work once in a combo.
id also be up for a faster GP

 

[Jade101]

How about instead of whining and theorycrafting about how Jax sucks, you play with him, find as many ways to exploit his strengths and conceal his weaknesses as you can, and try and win a tournament? All I've seen you do in this entire topic, as well as any other topic where you can talk about Jax, is go "Jax sucks! Wah wah wah!" Stop it.

Good players don't always win tournaments or place high because of how good their character is. They get up there because they put in the work to get better. Yeb took Gen to a high placing at a major, and the character was considered low tier. Kuroda in Japan was doing extremely well with Q in 3S. ST has had multiple instances where a low tier has done well at tourneys. Why? Because players actually worked.

Stop asking to be spoonfed your favorite character with top tier status, sit down and get better.

You dont understand, its hard when everyone is better then jax!

 

[THTB]

Did I ever say it would be easy? No. That's why I said put in work and actually get better.

 

[DanCock]

I'm loving the new jax. everyone is not better then him. I actually have pretty much made him my #2


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[Lord Beef]

I'm actually thinking about checking out some jax as a second after the matches we played. He's got pretty solid upclose and stupid-awesome counter n zoning tools.

-b_s- :headbang:

 

[scorpiomagnum]

Um... what happens when the opponent uses an invincible wake-up attack? Even if for some reason the opponent doesn't want to use an invincible wake-up, it's not hard to react to ground pound, because it's so slow. I'd just get up crouching to punish your Dash Punch, and if you did ground pound, I'd just jump back, use some sort of aerial attack (Kitana iAF), or just a quick attack to interrupt the 40-frame ground pound (depending on meaty timing).

Well, I tend to use Jax's projectile more for meaty attacks then dash punch. I've been able to tag a fair share of wake-up attacks.

Truth be told, I tend to use his projectile more than the average Jax player not to zone but to annoy and let them know that its there.

Of course you have to be careful against teleport attacks or EX-armor specials like Cage's EX-shadow kick or NW's EX-shoulder but sometimes if you time it right, you can throw it out and still have time to block.

OR

Look for their wake-up, condition them to take that risk and punish. Then you start the mindgame.

 

[GNG Iniquity]

Personally, I think a good Jax is A tier at worst. I've gotten my shit handed to me by a good Jax using those mind games. Anyone who says Jax flat out sucks, is lying through their teeth.

Does he take some work? Yes. Is he bad? No.

 

[DrDogg]

I see a few people saying Jax isn't bad, but I have yet to see anyone point out why they think this. Baiting invincible wake-up attacks does not make Jax good.

Please show some match vids or post some strats...

 

[THTB]

I've posted a few things and my opinion on Jax...I want to clarify I don't think he's high tier, maybe mid at best. I do think he's good, though. Like I said, I think every character but Stryker is legitimately good and has something. Just those higher than Jax have better things.

 

[DrDogg]

I've posted a few things and my opinion on Jax...I want to clarify I don't think he's high tier, maybe mid at best. I do think he's good, though. Like I said, I think every character but Stryker is legitimately good and has something. Just those higher than Jax have better things.

In this thread? All I see from you is talk of ground pound cancels on wake-up and his throw being good. Am I missing something or are you referring to a different thread?

 

[THTB]

Yes, it's been here, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Owerbart]

why not Stryker? he seems like a nice character to use. Anyways, I try to not pay atention to tiers. As somecubanguy said, if you are good with your character, then the sky is the limit.

 

[Jade101]

I've posted a few things and my opinion on Jax...I want to clarify I don't think he's high tier, maybe mid at best. I do think he's good, though. Like I said, I think every character but Stryker is legitimately good and has something. Just those higher than Jax have better things.

Thtb Jax is low tier, he needs just one more buff to be mid tier.

 

[ZeroEffect]

I'm no Jax pro, but I really like him now with the ground pound cancels. Makes him much more mobile and tricky. Right now, most of my strategy with him revolves around getting people to jump with those and staying away.

I do run into problems occasionally with Kitanas/Mileenas due to air projectiles. I've seen that his corner pressure can be pretty devastating at times, I just don't know the best ways to really apply it.

 

[Gotcha]

I'm no Jax pro, but I really like him now with the ground pound cancels. Makes him much more mobile and tricky. Right now, most of my strategy with him revolves around getting people to jump with those and staying away.

I do run into problems occasionally with Kitanas/Mileenas due to air projectiles. I've seen that his corner pressure can be pretty devastating at times, I just don't know the best ways to really apply it.

For me when i get someone into the corner i do
Foward 4 cancel into elbow drop
Ex ground pound
1,12,12,12,gotcha grab/dashnpunch/ w/e
thats a nice 50+% in the corner with only 1 bar of super
And even if they block the F4 Elbowdrop, its safe on block, just keep doing D1 (jabs) and put pressure on him then throw in another mix up

Now what i dont understand is how you guys are saying he has no pressure game??
Do D1 dash D1, use your F4 1 4, why are you not abusing his amazing high low mix ups
Yes they dont do alota damage.But it doesnt matter if you do alot or a little damage if your always ontop of your opponent

Stop just thinking hes only about groundpounds, yes they gave him groundpounds, but that doesnt mean you have to revolve your entire playstyle around his ground pounds.
The way i play with jax, i can and will find a way to get you in that corner,
Think about it, what does jax have that wont stop an opponent from getting out of the corner?
You have to air grabs, wonderful blockstrings, and even if they tele out, you can bait out the tele, and throw them right back in the corner.

Now his ground pound is amazing, you cant just look at it like a projectile, look at it as a trap to get your opponent with.
Mess around with your opponent, you can cancel it so get him to run into your ground pounds, if you throw projectiles, your opponents either A:going to tele, B:Jump in, Cash block in. and from there just predict where theyre going to go with it and get them on land/wake up.


hes not a character where you can use combo A,Combo B, and automatically win, gotta think with him. if you have slow ground pounds, and a slow projectile, bait out your slow projectile since you know theyre going to try and test your projectile by throwing one of there own.

 

[DrDogg]

I had two tournaments yesterday and a tournament today. In one of the tournaments yesterday, I played Jax most of the time and took 1st place (although I had to switch to my main to win in winner's finals and grand finals).

Jax still feels extremely limited to me. Most of my wins came to be because my opponents had not faced a decent Jax. I noticed that canceling out of Ground Pound means you can't block for a short time (unless I'm missing something... please tell me I'm missing something...!). What I found was that if I canceled Ground Pound and tried to block a wake-up or some other attack, I'd get hit. This was especially painful against Raiden who would just use a wake-up Superman if I tried to Ground Pound cancel.

I would actually feel Jax is lower mid-tier if you could just cancel Ground Pound into block, but since you can't, it's really not very effective... especially against characters who have wake-up attacks with some range to them.

Thoughts?

And even if they block the F4 Elbowdrop, its safe on block, just keep doing D1 (jabs) and put pressure on him then throw in another mix up

Now what i dont understand is how you guys are saying he has no pressure game??
Do D1 dash D1, use your F4 1 4, why are you not abusing his amazing high low mix ups
Yes they dont do alota damage.But it doesnt matter if you do alot or a little damage if your always ontop of your opponent

d+1 is not adv on block. If the opponent blocks a d+1, they can attack before you can... especially if you dash before the second d+1.

There's also no such thing as a high/low mixup. An opponent can simply block low the entire time and block or avoid anything you attempt that's high or low. Now if you meant an overhead/low mixup, I can understand where you're going, but Jax doesn't have this. His only overhead attacks are either mid-combo, or the Overhead Smash. Both of these options can be blocked with ease, on reaction.

Mess around with your opponent, you can cancel it so get him to run into your ground pounds, if you throw projectiles, your opponents either A:going to tele, B:Jump in, Cash block in. and from there just predict where theyre going to go with it and get them on land/wake up.

When someone throws a projectile at me, I just duck... What's Jax going to do to me?

 

[THTB]

If you do a ground pound cancel immediately into a generic low like d1/d3 after a knockdown like f413, you can block a number of character's wakeup attacks in time.

 

[DrDogg]

If you do a ground pound cancel immediately into a generic low like d1/d3 after a knockdown like f413, you can block a number of character's wakeup attacks in time.

Can you give me some examples so I can get a general frame data outlook on this? Raiden's Superman is 8 frames (12 at full screen). Jax's d+1 is 6 frames, but when you include the delay needed to make the GP fake feel real (meaning it would connect with proper wake-up timing if it wasn't canceled), plus the 1-3 frames of recovery I'm assuming d+1 has on whiff, I'm thinking Superman wins.