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Mass shootings and drugs

What really gets me is the commercials for prescription drugs. Do you think a lot of countries have those? "Feeling down? Ask your doctor about Placebaeu!" Who are these people? Who thinks that is a good idea? Ask your doctor?!

"Doctor Smith, I know you completed an undergraduate in biochemistry, while I flunked high school biology. Then you went to medical school, completed a specialisation, did years of hospital residency, and continuing education... but, I saw a commercial. It was a nice commercial. There was a cute butterfly, smiling people, a balloon floating in a sunny field, and I really like balloons. So, you might have your little diagnosis of what is best for me, based upon 10 years of post-secondary education and more years of medical training, but I have good grounds to second guess your opinion and bring up something you might not know. See, I saw a commercial."

Something like that?
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
Saying that mass shooting are caused by drugs is ignoring the 5 or 6 other possible causes.

Mental illness, medication, gun availability, social media, and personal experiences all are factors that can cause people to go on a rampage. Only focusing on one is ignoring the big picture, which is muy malo.

Correlation does not equal causation. HOWEVER it is hard to ignore the fact that these drugs CAN be a factor in these tragedies(but not the sole factor).
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
Saying that mass shooting are caused by drugs is ignoring the 5 or 6 other possible causes.

Mental illness, medication, gun availability, social media, and personal experiences all are factors that can cause people to go on a rampage. Only focusing on one is ignoring the big picture, which is muy malo.

Correlation does not equal causation. HOWEVER it is hard to ignore the fact that these drugs CAN be a factor in these tragedies(but not the sole factor).
I'm not saying drugs are the only cause. I'm saying they're a huge factor and are not talked about enough.

I will say that a lot of bad things that can contribute to someone going crazy are better remedied by getting to the root of the problem and not just prescribing a medication. Bad parenting, social anxiety, bullying and depression can all be worked out without drugs but aren't most of the time. Even in mild cases doctors are handing out prescriptions that could not only just mask the issues but also make them worse. Not to mention it can't be healthy to use these drugs over a long period of time. Think about how crazy a person can go after being dependent on a certain drug to function normally and then it's gone.

These drugs are not designed to cure problems, they're just a quick fix. What makes people think that the people on these drugs will get off them if their problems don't go away? What if their life problems become worse? Do more? It's the wrong way to go about helping people but it's the right way to make big money. All this shit is about is money.
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
Most mental issues are caused by what goes on around you right? All factors mentioned here are treated with drugs instead of actually solving the problem at hand. Confront the problems head on and make them really go away. These are the types of things that build character and make a people strong. Just imagine if every person ever faced with some type of problem that was hard to deal with was just medicated. I'm not even talking about people born with some crazy mental illness. I'm talking people with problems that EVERYONE has to deal with in life.

No I'm not saying everyone with any real life issues going on gets medicated but there's a significant portion of people that do. I also think some of the more severe mental illness is caused by prolonged use of these drugs. When you're brain depends on a drug for a long time I don't think it's unreasonable to believe a persons mental stability can change dramatically when not on the drugs. As far as I know none of these shooters were on their medication when they killed people.
 

Sami

Warrior
OP linked an article hosted on a pro-alternative medicine, pro-gun and pro-conspiracy website run by a complete loon. I don't know why you're all replying to him.
 

ColdBoreMK23

Noob Saibot
Alright, time for me to speak up. I will be as unbiased as I can be, being both a resident of critical care/pulm and as a pro-gun nut case (as some of the Democrats want you to believe we are).

1. I am not a Psychiatrist, I work critical care/pulm. I deal with the worst of the worst on a daily basis and do get some exposure to different Psychological and neuro-chemical pharmaceuticals. Psych usually deals with these patients, I'm only the physical doc not the mental, so keep that in mind.

2. When we have someone who is currently on any type of medication for different psychological disorders, whether it is Depakote for bipolar, Zoloft for depression, Trazadone for Schizophrenia, or even Xanax/Ativan/klonipin for anxiety. We have to not only monitor the persons physical but mental response to these medications.

What most people not in Medicine or in any healthcare field to begin with fail to realize, is that when we prescribe any medication; whether it is a Psychological medication, anticoagulant, diuretic, hypertension medication, seizure, or even supplements, etc. There needs to be some sort of monitoring to keep the desired "levels" in the blood and also the desired effects on whatever you are trying to treat.

If you prescribe a patient Warfarin, you better be drawing PT/INR lab tests AT LEAST weekly until we get them at a stable level. If someone is on Dilantin, we need Dilantin levels. Potassium levels for people on non K sparing diuretics. Etc.

The thing is, with all these other types of medication, we can adjust them according to set in stone TESTS that give us results.

Psychology is a tricky thing. You can monitor brain wave activity, check different chemicals in the blood stream that can affect neurological activity, etc. HOWEVER, it is more of an observational medicine of mental AND physical symptoms than just set in stone tests and results. Sure, you can do bullshit tests to check for different diagnosis's and whatnot, but it is never set in stone.

Getting back to the medication "levels". Some of you say that people being on these medications long term has adverse effects. That can be true in some cases. But, over time, being on the same dose of say Zoloft, you build a tolerance to this dosage and even medication. Psychology has the highest turn over for switching medications amongst any field of medicine.

Let me give this example:

1/1/13

Patient sees Doctor and states their "anxious". Doctor writes script for Ativan 0.5mg every six hours as needed for anxiety.

Patient is good for a few months

3/1/13

Patient returns to Doctor and states medicine isn't cutting it and isn't working. Doctor bumps up dosage to Ativan 1mg every six hours...


Patient is good for a few months


6/1/13

Patient sees Doctor and states medicine isn't working and has no desired effect. Doctor says fuck it and puts them on Klonipin or Xanax and starts the cycle all over again.


This is where we run into a problem with Psychology. When you are dealing with a mentally unstable individual, how do you KNOW for SURE that the medicine isn't working, they aren't taking it as prescribed, they are taking too much and became tolerant of the dose because of such, or are just plain addicted? Zoloft is not a narcotic like Ativan, Xanax, Klonipin (although shouldn't even be considered a narcotic because they are schedule 5), etc etc.

Basically, you have a patient that is either

A. Not receiving the appropriate dosage of medication to keep a neuro-chemical balance


B. Patient is built up a tolerance and needs medication readjustment


C. The patient needs something else

That's enough for medicine posting for now.


3. My guns never killed anybody, because "I" never killed anybody. Trying to be unbiased as I can be. There is no correlation with gun control and an area being safer. It is actually reverse. Even other countries that have strict gun control have high violent crimes per capita. Even looking at our own country. If we subtract the four strictest areas of gun control from our country (Chicaco, New York, Cali, Detroit) our violent crime ranking drops almost to dead last in the world from almost fourth. Crime rates in areas where there isn't restrictions is far less. Facts.


Once again, gun control doesn't work.

Neither does "stricter" background checks. In PA we have questions on the checks that specifically ask if you were ever diagnosed with a psychological disorder.

Because one person kills a few people we want to punish everyone. Sounds legit...


In summary. We have numerous problems in this country starting with the president down to the bum on the streets. We have a society problem, not an inanimate object killing people problem. People will find ways to commit crimes and murder people no matter what. I've seen it al, believe me.

I just wish the major media outlets would advertise the people that defend themselves with guns, the almost 2 MILLION incidents every year where an innocent person saves their own life, their kids life, their parents, friends, other families lives with a firearm. Never hear about it...



TL;DR.

- The world sucks
- Guns aren't the problem
- Psychological disorders are the most difficult to treat
- I'm tired
- I could have fapped instead of writing this.
- Don't get into medicine unless you want to be miserable.


Goodnight.




I broke my back... It's spinal.
 

Chakk dizzle

That's baaaaane
Most mental issues are caused by what goes on around you right? All factors mentioned here are treated with drugs instead of actually solving the problem at hand. Confront the problems head on and make them really go away. These are the types of things that build character and make a people strong. Just imagine if every person ever faced with some type of problem that was hard to deal with was just medicated. I'm not even talking about people born with some crazy mental illness. I'm talking people with problems that EVERYONE has to deal with in life.

No I'm not saying everyone with any real life issues going on gets medicated but there's a significant portion of people that do. I also think some of the more severe mental illness is caused by prolonged use of these drugs. When you're brain depends on a drug for a long time I don't think it's unreasonable to believe a persons mental stability can change dramatically when not on the drugs. As far as I know none of these shooters were on their medication when they killed people.
Have you been around individuals with REAL mental illnesses? Im not talking about a little anxiety or mild depression. I mean schizophrenia., bipolar , ppd. These individuals more often than not NEED medication to even function. I have been around plenty in my career and people with real mental illness cannot even begin behavoral therapy without medication. You cannot explain to a person who is suffering fom paranoid delusions that they are suffering from paranoid delusions. It simply is not possible. That is part of what defines the illness
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
Seriously?

Just because event A precedes event B, doesn't mean event A causes event B.

These people were on drugs for a reason. If we assume that having a mental disorder makes you more predisposed to commit mass shootings, then what is more likely, that the assailants committed those shootings because of an underlying mental condition, or because they were being medicated for that condition, and the medication caused that behavior?

Also, you are grouping totally different drugs together. Most commonly used anti-depressants today are SSRIs, and some of the older ones are MAOIs. Ritalin is an amphetamine, Xanax is a benzodiazepine, and all of these are totally different in the way they affect the nervous system. Grouping all drugs together and saying that they cause people to kill is like grouping all cars together and saying they cause people to commit intentional vehicular homicide.

The one moral I see here is: keep guns out of the hands of insane people. Closing gun control loopholes and instituting more thorough background checks is sensible, and is already being done.

Also, changing the stance that the media uses to portray these incidents, and making sure that they don't glorify them, is another step that could be taken - though of course, this leads to a bigger debate as to what role anybody should have in the regulation of media content. Frankly, I think the media is going to do whatever the hell they want, and if we support the idea of media freedom - I mean, well and truly support it - then it's not our place to regulate them regardless.

It's a complex issue. Don't jump to conclusions.
Ritalin - aggression, restlessness, hallucinations, unusual behavior, or motor tics (muscle twitches);

Xanax - lack or loss of self-control, mood or mental changes, seeing, hearing, or feeling things that are not there, sense of detachment from self or body (god damn!), feeling sad or empty, Actions that are out of control, attack, assault, or force, lack of feeling or emotion, nightmares and thoughts of killing oneself.

Now I'm not saying these drugs are the same but are you saying it's not possible for any of them to contribute to ones insanity over extended periods of use? Even short term use from a bad prescription?

I'm not trying to dismiss what you said, it is a very complex issue. I have stated many times within this thread that I don't think drugs are the only factor here. There's many other factors but drugs are not talked about nearly enough.
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
Have you been around individuals with REAL mental illnesses? Im not talking about a little anxiety or mild depression. I mean schizophrenia., bipolar , ppd. These individuals more often than not NEED medication to even function. I have been around plenty in my career and people with real mental illness cannot even begin behavoral therapy without medication. You cannot explain to a person who is suffering fom paranoid delusions that they are suffering from paranoid delusions. It simply is not possible. That is part of what defines the illness
These kinds of people are the ones who do need it. As I mentioned many times drugs are being over prescribed to people who can do without them. In some cases it makes them more ill than before. Is this considered to be untrue?
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
OP linked an article hosted on a pro-alternative medicine, pro-gun and pro-conspiracy website run by a complete loon. I don't know why you're all replying to him.
Dude it's just a list of people who killed while prescribed medicine. I'm not promoting any type of conspiracy.

And wtf is wrong with being pro gun and pro alternative medicine?
 

Chakk dizzle

That's baaaaane
What I think what you are ignoring is the fact that these people were on medication in the first place. Meaning they were diagnosed with psychological issues at some point . Is that not more likely to be a major factor? It is a bit unfair to assume that none of these people were correctly diagnosed. Who is to say they were even taking their meds as prescribed ?
 
Anyone with the actual training may prove me wrong on this one (as I'm admittedly not the most well versed on this subject):

Isn't depression caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain that a drug like Zoloft is meant to remedy? So a person may not be depressed because they don't have Zoloft, but they may be depressed because they don't have the correct chemical balance that Zoloft could provide?

Juice this Dr. explains pretty much was SSRI's do to the brain.


My sister was on Prozzak and Wellbutrin for years and she's more fucked up than ever.
 
I wonder if Scoot thinks vaccines cause autism, too.

Why is this thread still alive?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/post2468343_b_2468343.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/italian-court-reignites-mmr-vaccine-debate-after-award-over-child-with-autism-7858596.html?origin=internalSearch

Before you pick up a gamepad, know that vaccines use aluminum compounds as adjuvants (immune system stimulator) and still use mercury as a preservative in quite a few. Aluminum and mercury are neurotoxins. 1+1=2.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2671833

The more you know.
 

McNasty

Moist.
"may cause thoughts of suicide" on every prescription anti-depressant advertised. If that isn't clear I don't know what is. Me personally I'd rather live a miserable life without drugs then depend on one to make me "happy". This is just my opinion though, but I should also mention that OP is extremely polarizing/misleading.
 

Duck Nation

Dicks with a future
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/post2468343_b_2468343.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/italian-court-reignites-mmr-vaccine-debate-after-award-over-child-with-autism-7858596.html?origin=internalSearch

Before you pick up a gamepad, know that vaccines use aluminum compounds as adjuvants (immune system stimulator) and still use mercury as a preservative in quite a few. Aluminum and mercury are neurotoxins. 1+1=2.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2671833

The more you know.
What I know is that vaccines have been used with the same essential substrates for much longer than the sudden spike in autism, and have been responsible for saving millions of lives and preventing even more than that from suffering debilitating long-term health issues. There is absolutely no link whatsoever that any reputable source (read: people who do the actual goddamn research instead of courts filled with people who have no expertise whatsoever on the subject) has ever found connecting autism to vaccines. It's trumped up, made-up bullshit and the anti-vaccine activists are needlessly endangering children. They'd change their tune real fucking fast if polio came back along.

You disgust me.
 

GodsLonelyman

Kombatant
The government, The FDA, and big pharma are all cronies and in cahoots. Big pharma makes tons of cash producing dangerous drugs with dangerous side effects which are then labled safe by the "fda" and prescribed to millions of people. It's a huge drug operation bigger and more powerful than the cartel. Modern psychiatry is a sham, and psychiatrists are nothing more than drug dealers pushing and selling dope to their clients for their suppliers, big pharma. Everyone these days has some type of "disorder" or label given to them by their friendly neighborhood quack, and prescribed a magic pill that will "fix" things. Meanwhile, much more harmless natural drugs are demonized and the public is doctrined and brainwashed by the corrupt propaganda machine into hating them and hating those who use them. We live in an age where "doctors" working for the corrupt regime lie and falsify medical studies and pull statistics out of their asses to propagate the lie. Reminds me of the other day, some overweight fat fuck probably about 300 pounds and no more than 5'6" was giving me the stink eye for smoking outside of a mcdonalds. He had this look of grandiosity on his face, as if he were better than me, all this while he was slurping down an xxl soda and chewing on his huge greasy chemical ridden big mac. Some people I tell ya.
 
Reactions: nwo

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
I wonder if Scoot thinks vaccines cause autism, too.

Why is this thread still alive?
I have no idea about that. Also I just want drugs to be part of the discussion instead of being ignored. Everything else gets its fair sare of blame. It's not like these things don't have clearly advertised side effects. I don't see why it's so crazy to have this discussion.

I'm not saying drugs can't help people. I'm saying that they're over prescribed in a lot of situations, people become addicted and reliant on them. A lot of these legal drugs are very addictive and cause a lot of problems that can stem from abuse. It's a topic that shouldn't be ignored. I don't think I should be treated as some wack job for bringing up the issue when every other thing under the sun (music, games, guns, movies and whatever) takes blame by the media.
 

fr stack

Noob's saibot or noob saibot's?
guys pharma reps are not the same as doctors
dont ever think they are , theyre business men , how many companies do you know that would willingly sell an unfinished or badly made product , cause i know a lot ..
research how clinical trials are done pharma companies only have to supply say 3 cases of the drug working , they DO NOT have to supply the number of failed tests , i dont care if my son or daughter are batshit crazy , they will not be getting force fed side effects
 

Relaxedstate

PTH|RM Relaxedstate
I have no idea about that. Also I just want drugs to be part of the discussion instead of being ignored. Everything else gets its fair sare of blame. It's not like these things don't have clearly advertised side effects. I don't see why it's so crazy to have this discussion.

I'm not saying drugs can't help people. I'm saying that they're over prescribed in a lot of situations, people become addicted and reliant on them. A lot of these legal drugs are very addictive and cause a lot of problems that can stem from abuse. It's a topic that shouldn't be ignored. I don't think I should be treated as some wack job for bringing up the issue when every other thing under the sun (music, games, guns, movies and whatever) takes blame by the media.
You need to edit the OP then. Because that shit is whack lol
 

nwo

Kombatant
I wonder if Scoot thinks vaccines cause autism, too.

Why is this thread still alive?
I haven't had a vaccine in about 15 years, and I only get sick about less than once every 5 years.

I really don't see how a vaccine could possibly improve my health at this point in time.
 
As someone who has been diagnosed as psychotic (mild schizophrenia) I have to say in my experience the drugs they tried to give me are worse than my condition is to begin with.

I'll deal with the occasional voice and hallucination. Its better than being on those drugs and not even feeling like a person anymore.

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