Question Looking At Certain Character's Defensive Backdashes

[The Celebrity]

I love backdashes, I use them a lot. I do feel that backdashes should have less recovery if I'm going to use stamina. Cause as it stands some backdashes just aren't worth doing.

All backdashes are almost linear in recovery. I did the numbers before and by my calculations every single one in the game was between 30-34 recovery frames give or take. I didn't look into kp2 chars though.

 

[Invincible Salads]

It's fair and unfair depending on who gets what back-dash. Goro should krawl backward like an ant who is also krawling backwards or maybe do a 6-limb kartwheel like an ant who is also doing a 6-limbed kartwheel. Regardless, Goro's kurrent back-dash ant working.

Nah, Goro shouldnt be doing no cartwheel, he's supposed to be an ungraceful brute, though, with much more intelligence than ferra/torr

 

[REO]

Wonder if Tremors backdash works like Alien's.

Tremor's backdash doesn't have the same evasive properties as Alien's. It still gets hit by highs. It just visually looks like it low profiles.

 

[honeybooboo]

What about csz's special cancelable backdash

 

[REO]

In my testing I think it was a few frames. That's when used in neutral. You get a lot more invincible frames on reversal backdash.

I did a little demo of that here. Toward the end F/T vs Scorp, you can see Scorp avoids several active frames. There's no way it's only 1 frame. You wouldn't dodge anything if it were 1 frame.

Are you sure that reversal backdashes have extra frame of invulnerability? I think it's just a difference between doing the perfect first available frame with invincibility as a reversal VS trying to randomly backdash (which may cost you to lose some proper invincible frames vs an attack).

 

[Goat-City]

Apparently back dashes have 30-35 recovery frames universally. I think they should get 10-20 of those chopped off. 10 for someone like Quan or Triborg, 20 for someone like Kenshi. That being said, I wonder how much recovery forward dashes have in comparison.

 

[Lokheit]

Some characters got "extra properties" on moves that usually have "universal rules" like Alien having a 2 hit jump in kick, Drunken Master Bo' bing able to cancel his throw into a special, Ninjitsu Scorpion having a 2 hits and cancelable back4 or Cryomancer Sub-Zero having a Mid uppercut.

There are some examples on KP2 characters of "universal rules" being broken and I think they wanted to experiment with them. Probably we will see a lot more of this in future installments.

 

[Shaikhuzzaman]

I'm pretty sure all backdashes have the the same properties whether they're done on reversal or not. It's just about timing the backdash

 

[the.hamburglar]

This game is a clusterfuck of balance issues in more ways than one, it seems. I really hope they look into this. I mean, I enjoy the game a lot, but I wish some things in this game were more like Street Fighter V.

I could not agree anymore
Why does Takeda get a unblockable set up that im pretty sure is safe but CSZ cant even connect anything into freeze
Why does Kang get nerfed over and over but JC gets a slap on the wrist and D'vorah apparently didnt exist till recently
Why do JIPs beat my d2 anti air
Why do Kano and Ermac have safe 50/50s
Why is Raiden even a character, hes just been nerfed to shit since day 1
Also one last thing - why release a good character in the Kp1/2 and after everyone has said character, make them barely viable
But back to the backdashes

 

[Zoidberg747]

Make all backdashes go fullscreen and have full invincibility.

Why can't defense be broke too

 

[Ze Dingo]

I could not agree anymore
Why does Takeda get a unblockable set up that im pretty sure is safe but CSZ cant even connect anything into freeze
Why does Kang get nerfed over and over but JC gets a slap on the wrist and D'vorah apparently didnt exist till recently
Why do JIPs beat my d2 anti air
Why do Kano and Ermac have safe 50/50s
Why is Raiden even a character, hes just been nerfed to shit since day 1
Also one last thing - why release a good character in the Kp1/2 and after everyone has said character, make them barely viable
But back to the backdashes

I just want consistency. That's all. Hopefully, next game...

 

[Alright RyRy]

I believe every character should have the Kano back dash, or the Kenshi / Goro backdash.

Either or doesn't matter. It really bothers me when a MU has an extra hurdle to over come and it's a move that every character in the game has.

Goro vs Kano for example is pretty much impossible, everything Kano does leaves him at - frames but not able to be punished so he can just backdash for free.

Only using Goro as an example because Goros advancing normals are on the slower side compared to the rest of the cast, so it's hard for Goro to compete in certain MUs. Not impossible by any means, just something that shouldn't be a topic when it comes to a universal move.

All backdashs should have the same distance and recovery, if they want to have a higher / lower hurt box than so be it, but the distance should be the same.

That's my opinion. @YOMI REO what are your thoughts with what I said .

 

[Jason Pls]

Kenshi deserves to get a backdash...

Pig once described Kenshi's backdash as "geriatric", and I always chuckle thinking back on it.

 

[STRYKIE]

Why can't defense be broke too

Already happened, it was called Injustice.

#BuffRushdown2014 #BuffOffense2014 #BrbMakingParodyDrManhattanHideyAccount

 

[Wigy]

I would suggest doing a video on kenshis and takedas but i don't think you'd be able to upload their 14 century long backdashes without some kind of nasa supercomputer.

BTW someone know what the deal is with kotals sun disc backdash, sometimes you can do it sometimes you can't and it doesnt seem to be space dependent?

 

[Wigy]

I could not agree anymore
Why does Takeda get a unblockable set up that im pretty sure is safe but CSZ cant even connect anything into freeze
Why does Kang get nerfed over and over but JC gets a slap on the wrist and D'vorah apparently didnt exist till recently
Why do JIPs beat my d2 anti air
Why do Kano and Ermac have safe 50/50s
Why is Raiden even a character, hes just been nerfed to shit since day 1
Also one last thing - why release a good character in the Kp1/2 and after everyone has said character, make them barely viable
But back to the backdashes

Liu literally had pseudo infinites off a full screen armoured move.

Behave.

 

[TyCarter35]

Kano's backdash seems to be much faster from hindsight and moves Jim back much farther in comparison to over characters. To think, whice characters besides Alien, Triborg and Kano have good back dashes?

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Kano's backdash seems to be much faster from hindsight and moves Jim back much farther in comparison to over characters. To think, whice characters besides Alien, Triborg and Kano have good back dashes?

Sub-Zero and Quan

 

[Trauma_and_Pain]

Are you sure that reversal backdashes have extra frame of invulnerability? I think it's just a difference between doing the perfect first available frame with invincibility as a reversal VS trying to randomly backdash (which may cost you to lose some proper invincible frames vs an attack).

Both are true. What you're saying is definitely right; a lot of times the reversal just has better timing, so the invincible frames line up better and that's why it works, and I really should've mentioned that in my demo. Honestly looking back at it, I may have overstated how many more extended frames there are. It's as much a matter of reversals spending invincibility better than it is truly having invincibility for longer.

This looks like proof to me.

Above Goro follows up with a normal and Scorp is hit early in his backdash.

Goro cancels into flame breath (which is needed for extended frames) and hits Scorp about 8 frames later.

Set speed to 0.25 to see it best. As a reference point I measured the frames on Youtube from the frame "Reversal" appears to the frame of hit. The capture is 30 frames per second and the normal backdash was hit at frame 6 (in-game frame ~12). The extended backdash was hit at frame 10 (in-game frame ~20). You can measure the frames yourself. Use comma and period keys (Chrome) to navigate frame-by-frame.

Did it in the corner so we know that only the invincible frames and not the movement is causing avoidance. You can see the exact moment invincibility ends in both cases because both attacks obviously clip through his model, then hit later in their active frames. The margin of error is only 1 frame since it's possible a single frame was clipped when the framerate was halved.

It looks like solid proof to me, but if you see any problems let me know.

 

[Pterodactyl]

It's fair and unfair depending on who gets what back-dash. Goro should krawl backward like an ant who is also krawling backwards or maybe do a 6-limb kartwheel like an ant who is also doing a 6-limbed kartwheel. Regardless, Goro's kurrent back-dash ant working.

Goro's back dash should've just been a backwards punchwalk.

And his forward dash should've been a punchwalk.

And his walk also should've been a punchwalk....

---

Just wanna say REO you're probably my favorite notable tourney player to watch and my favorite that posts on these forums.

 

[thlityoursloat]

Some backdashes aren't just awful, they LOOK awful too. EB's backdash is just fucking hilarious.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Already happened, it was called Injustice.

#BuffRushdown2014 #BuffOffense2014 #BrbMakingParodyDrManhattanHideyAccount

But it didn't matter because that game had some ridiculous offense in it too. I just want them to both be broke. Guess it will never happen

 

[Akromaniac27]

In my testing I think it was a few frames. That's when used in neutral. You get a lot more invincible frames on reversal backdash.

I did a little demo of that here. Toward the end F/T vs Scorp, you can see Scorp avoids several active frames. There's no way it's only 1 frame. You wouldn't dodge anything if it were 1 frame.

Kudos to putting this together, but its kinda inaccurate. While I only posted either publicly or within PMs, for characters such as Mileena, Kitana, Sub and Sonya's frame data, MOST gaps throughout the roster are only a 1f gap.

The animation makes it look deceptively larger, but its only 1 frame to get out a reversal. Very few gaps, such as Mileena's f4()4, EXsais and so on, have a 4f gap in which the invincibility of a backdash is still active. I don't know the exact number of invincibility frames, but its only around 5 or 6 whether its raw or not. The example of 21u4 is a 1f gap, and I believe the example with F/T is also 1 or 2 frames. The string being evaded is only active for the next frame or two, so even if backdashes had 3f of invincibility, it would still suffice. Same with the example of cancelling into sai; the sai is travelling faster than the speed of the backdash on top of the fact that sais start traveling on frame 14 but arent active till frame 15.

NRS just needs to get their shit together with their ass backwards logic, and hopefully hire competent testers that actually know what they're being paid to do.

 

[Akromaniac27]

The problem with defense in the game is just typical NRS logic. It WOULD make sense that because backdashes have +30 frames of recovery, and within a game where footsies cover half the screen, that backdashing would be treated as a normal movement, but no...you have to be mindful of when to break/run/block break/use an interactible, because SHOULD you want to distance yourself after, you either can't or lose all stamina.

Imo:

-backdashes shouldn't require stamina
-block breaking shouldn't require stamina, nor two bars, just one
-short distance backdashes like Kenshi, Mileena, Goro and so forth, should be 27-30f in recovery, maybe slightly less given how little distance they travel
-Absurd backdashes like Sub, Kano, Quan, etc. should have 35f of recovery, if not a few more given these same characters, Quan aside, with easy mode safe footsies on top of the backdash they have
-NJPs should all be made unsafe regardless of height. If they're gonna keep WU NJP a thing, there should be SOME sort of penalty for it

Just my opinions to actually adding defense in a game that is clearly only offense oriented.

 

[The Highlander]

Make all backdashes go fullscreen and have full invincibility.

Why can't defense be broke too

I don't think you remember how annoying rushing down zod was...