General/Other - Raiden Let's discuss MoS/Displacer

[ToxicBaraka1210]

I just picked the character up for practice 5 hours ago. I already have some great setups and pressure. I will make videos of versus gameplay so people can see how his pressure can be applied.

yea it seems like everyone thinks youre supposed to drop one orb at a time which is not the case. i have some match vids too and im writing up a starter guide to try to explain it. as youll see exploring it every trap will be 30% no meter and next trap out. even if blocked you still get next trap out and knockdown from sweep or low mixup to corner. flows nice dont it =P

 

[cambros22]

TG raiden is fine, minus the b2 OS. Get rid of that I say.

As far as the other two variations go... I've put literally no time into them so I have no clue. I'm still waiting for someone to post max damage combos for MoS and D so I can post them in the combo thread lol.

Damage in MOS is solid 20 to 30% meterless. Spending meter is 35 to 40%

 

[cambros22]

yea it seems like everyone thinks youre supposed to drop one orb at a time which is not the case. i have some match vids too and im writing up a starter guide to try to explain it. as youll see exploring it every trap will be 30% no meter and next trap out. even if blocked you still get next trap out and knockdown from sweep or low mixup to corner. flows nice dont it =P

Totally agree. Damage is solid. I wouldnt even spend meter for damage. Id just save it for armor wakeups and ex traps, guarenteed pressure after corner carry or hard knockdowns.
Also he can blow up a ton of wakeups by timing out knockdowns with ex trap and doing low profile pokes om opponents wakeups. And once your good at converting, these punishes lead to 30% damage

 

[cambros22]

I mean if the orbs are connected in open space and not blocked, then they should stay out about as long as a clone does. As far as the single orb goes, that's exactly what I was thinking as well. Those things really need a hitbox. I thought that since pre launch

They Stay out long enough. Hell you can chain the full traps into combos back to back

 

[cambros22]

MoS is underrated but the orbs do need better recovery. Displacer is a steaming pile of shit. MK9 teleport or bust.

Non-TG variations absolutely do NOT need the LRC. Thunder God barely needs the LRC. The other variations just need their one and only tools to actually be good enough to justify each variation having precisely one and only tool. Nothing needs to be added or subtracted here, just fixed. Because this is how it breaks down now:

Master of Storms: All about setting lightning traps; isn't that great at lightning traps.
Displacer: All about teleporting; is fucking terrible at teleporting
Thunder God: About improved combo and chip damage; has absolutely ALL the combo and chip damage.

(Actually, though as far as "no adding/subtracting" goes, if Displacer Raiden were to get a worthwhile teleport I'd be more than fine with that variation losing B2 and B33 and having them replaced with things that looked and functioned more like his MK9 b312 string and a short string with good range that doesn't really lead to anything on hit other than maybe a confirm into superman)

MOS is great at setting traps, the pressure you can get from them is amazing.

 

[cambros22]

For Displacer the obvious solution is to make his normal Teleport more viable by reducing the recovery frames. -19 is a good number (that's the same as in MK9, right?)


Master of Storms is more tricky because the orbs are quite powerful already, it's just that this variation is under represented and hence, under developed, simply because TG is so good. I think the correct solution would be to buff it in such a way that it becomes more viable, but in ways that are different than TG so people would have an incentive to pick the latter over the former. Initially I was thinking that giving MoS the same, or even pre-patch, F1, 2 might have been the solution, but TG has that as well, i.e. it wouldn't really provide any benefits over it.

So now I am of the opinion the best thing to do is to buff his orbs somehow, or even give him a new orb move, such as Revoloving Orbs for example. That would be a move where an orb or two literally revolves around Raiden for a short time and protects him from harm or deflect or absorbs projectiles or some such. Another interesting orb buff might to allow three orbs on the screen at the same time and all three of them form a triangular beam. Either that or single orbs should have some effect on the opponent, like maybe drain a little bit of life or meter or stamina. In that way, the opponent could still walk right through them and keep on with his attack or whatever they were doing, but it'd cost them a little. The point being, a single orb shouldn't be completely harmless.

Giving a character buffa because they arent represented enough in the community is silly. If we buff characters that look bad because no one has unlocked them, or no one listens to those who have, will only result in the character becoming OP and then people will cry for nerfs. Save buffs for things that are just bad dont add to something just because it looks like it isnt good or you can find a use for it.

 

[cambros22]

For displacer just fix the teleport. No reason to use phase or in front teleport at the cost of half a bar of stamina if its going to leave you so minus in front of someone's face. For MoS make adjustments for the traps, I actually like @brizzle concept for the traps though I think a full 10 seconds would actually be sort of broken. Point is for variations that are built around specific tools, those tools have actually turned out to be lackluster.

How is MOS tools lackluster?

 

[cambros22]

I would like less recovery on traps for MoS. A hitbox on orb placement for some nicely spaced pressure would be cool. My main problem with MoS is that when I play I kinda just play Raiden. It might just be me but I feel like I have to go out of my way to put traps up while playing. Which I think stems from the just awful recovery on trap. He has like 2 strings that guarantee a 1st orb. And even then that's all he gets. Not like he places the orb then continues pressure to place another.

Actually he can place orb to continue pressure.

I think MoS max damage stuff would just be basic Raiden combos. I don't think his traps lead themselves to combos. He can start combos with them though and there is a thread for all of that.

Traps lead into 24 to 30 % meterless damage

EDIT: Does anyone know if traps hit more than once on armor? I would love for traps to break armor but he would probably lose something to have complete shutdown if he doesn't already.

Traps hit once om armor but you can time your own pokes to break armor on wakeups or low profiles exc...

 

[cambros22]

b2 should just be a safe overhead, and b22 should be the unsafe bigger damage one, raiden needs buffs

You must be joking right?

 

[cambros22]

I want +5 so I can use it as a poke, raiden has no options

Then you are a not creativily approaching how to use the character. Plus he has a shit ton of options

 

[buyacushun]

Traps hit once om armor but you can time your own pokes to break armor on wakeups or low profiles exc...

Dang was hoping for something really dirty. Really all I want right now is more time to get the second orb out. Once the first orb is out I feel like I'm being forced into my gameplan instead of actually planning on when to act. This also sucks against some characters who can turn the tide quickly.

Someone said have orb have a hitbox when being placed. I think that would be an interesting change because the orb only comes out a certain distance in front so you'd have to space it. Leave Raiden at like -2 on block on or something. Doesn't have to give him more pressure but just a nice technical way to get an orb out.

Oh and f1 as a mid again please NRS.

 

[cambros22]

Dang was hoping for something really dirty. Really all I want right now is more time to get the second orb out. Once the first orb is out I feel like I'm being forced into my gameplan instead of actually planning on when to act. This also sucks against some characters who can turn the tide quickly.

Someone said have orb have a hitbox when being placed. I think that would be an interesting change because the orb only comes out a certain distance in front so you'd have to space it. Leave Raiden at like -2 on block on or something. Doesn't have to give him more pressure but just a nice technical way to get an orb out.

Oh and f1 as a mid again please NRS.

If only you understood how good these orbs are. Buffing them the way your asking for will only wnd with you wanting them nerfed.

 

[buyacushun]

If only you understood how good these orbs are. Buffing them the way your asking for will only wnd with you wanting them nerfed.

I understand just fine how the orbs can be. You can get almost free pressure in a few situations and I'm sure in some cases you can lock an opponent out. (i'm thinking against things like goro. Don't know because no one plays goro lol.

Asking for some more time or well spaced orbs isn't crazy. Maybe more time if they go crazy with it but giving the orb a hitbox on placement would only make his spacing reward him with an orb placement or a trap hit depending on how much block or hit stun was added. If he was negative on it then the opponent could just move away from the trap.

If you pllay on steam I would love to play your Raiden. Always open to see what others do. I feel you can play this variation in a few slightly different ways.

EDIT: Just wanted to make clear i'm not saying he NEEDS this. Just cool adjustments that could be made.

 

[brizzle]

MOS is great at setting traps, the pressure you can get from them is amazing.

How is having to set two traps to get one trap great? You cannot get a safe trap out on any block string, therefore a connected trap is a one time frame advantage. There is no way to stay at plus frames. These were thoughts going around week two and then people realized nothing orbs can do are worth the effort.

 

[cambros22]

I understand just fine how the orbs can be. You can get almost free pressure in a few situations and I'm sure in some cases you can lock an opponent out. (i'm thinking against things like goro. Don't know because no one plays goro lol.

Asking for some more time or well spaced orbs isn't crazy. Maybe more time if they go crazy with it but giving the orb a hitbox on placement would only make his spacing reward him with an orb placement or a trap hit depending on how much block or hit stun was added. If he was negative on it then the opponent could just move away from the trap.

If you pllay on steam I would love to play your Raiden. Always open to see what others do. I feel you can play this variation in a few slightly different ways.

EDIT: Just wanted to make clear i'm not saying he NEEDS this. Just cool adjustments that could be made.

If you give him an orb that has a hitbox, trapping players would be too easy. Not only do they lose mobility, but you could loop them with ex versions and continue to add more afterwards. The orbs arent meant as a zoning tool, just a pressure one. So you get inside on your opponent and drop one at the end of a combo. Or get a knockdown and ex trap then throw out another single. This baits the player into trying to punish you for being unsafe ending in them getting blown up. Plus restanding combos and his ability to put you in the corner, which is where this pressure thrives, is legit. I think he is fine the way he is. I am on steam,
my tag is :cambros22

I only started using the character yesterday and his potential is crazy. once I get his combos and punishes down, its all about the mind games.

 

[cambros22]

How is having to set two traps to get one trap great? You cannot get a safe trap out on any block string, therefore a connected trap is a one time frame advantage. There is no way to stay at plus frames. These were thoughts going around week two and then people realized nothing orbs can do are worth the effort.

Thats the problem with this community. Everything has to be safe. This variation is about forcing trades in Raiden's favor. And if the opponent respects you, free mixups which his are all safe. Safe being all combos ending into shocker which is -7. So asking for traps that create block infinite's and are safe is silly, considering the meta of the game is 50/50 Risk/reward system. Raiden is already safe with his mixups, how much more do you want?

Using orbs on block strings are to bait a player into trying to punish, or establish pressure so you can go into your mixup. You shouldn't be using a orb o block unless your completing the trap.

 

[Jb879212]

How is MOS tools lackluster?

TBH I was really talking mostly about displacer. Still I have trouble winning with MoS and Displacer mostly because I have trouble with the neutral now more than ever since f1 is high. If you could show me how you approach matches using MoS it would be greatly appreciated because I have virtually no set ups in neutral that seem to pay off against decent opponents.

 

[cambros22]

TBH I was really talking mostly about displacer. Still I have trouble winning with MoS and Displacer mostly because I have trouble with the neutral now more than ever since f1 is high. If you could show me how you approach matches using MoS it would be greatly appreciated because I have virtually no set ups in neutral that seem to pay off against decent opponents.

I picked up the character yesterday so i dont punish and combo properly however,I am looking to record some matches and show how I approach the matchup. Hopefully my Buddy gets on today so I can post some footage.

what platform do you play on?

 

[buyacushun]

Thats the problem with this community. Everything has to be safe. This variation is about forcing trades in Raiden's favor. And if the opponent respects you, free mixups which his are all safe. Safe being all combos ending into shocker which is -7. So asking for traps that create block infinite's and are safe is silly, considering the meta of the game is 50/50 Risk/reward system. Raiden is already safe with his mixups, how much more do you want?

Using orbs on block strings are to bait a player into trying to punish, or establish pressure so you can go into your mixup. You shouldn't be using a orb o block unless your completing the trap.

Not everything has to be safe and I said you'd would have to learn the spacing for cancels in my idea so it's not a go to option every time you touch someone. If he can already end in shocker for a bit safety cause -7 isnt completely safe, what's rewarding some nice spacing with an actual safe cancel option. I'm not saying guaranteed blockstring any time he touches you.

I barely see a time to loop people into ex traps. Also if you're blowing people up with ex trap into trap then they aren't paying attention or don't get how he works. I'll add you and play you sometime. He has some frame trappy baits and you gotta be real selective in what buttons you press sometimes but I think once people understand Master of Storms we'll just be using traps for the pressure really and some slight space control.

I noticed halfway through typing that I responded to the wrong quote but i think I covered both of your replies so I'll just leave it there for some MoS discussion. Again I wasn't saying he NEEDS it or anything. Just bringing up some changes that wouldn't drastically change the character much.

 

[ShaolinGunFu]

You must be joking right?

yes I am joking, I do think displacer needs teleport buff though and I dont want b2 nerfed (I want raiden fair, I have to fight the mirror, I just honestly think mos and disp need b2 cancel), he should work the way he did in mk9

 

[cambros22]

Not everything has to be safe and I said you'd would have to learn the spacing for cancels in my idea so it's not a go to option every time you touch someone. If he can already end in shocker for a bit safety cause -7 isnt completely safe, what's rewarding some nice spacing with an actual safe cancel option. I'm not saying guaranteed blockstring any time he touches you.

I barely see a time to loop people into ex traps. Also if you're blowing people up with ex trap into trap then they aren't paying attention or don't get how he works. I'll add you and play you sometime. He has some frame trappy baits and you gotta be real selective in what buttons you press sometimes but I think once people understand Master of Storms we'll just be using traps for the pressure really and some slight space control.

I noticed halfway through typing that I responded to the wrong quote but i think I covered both of your replies so I'll just leave it there for some MoS discussion. Again I wasn't saying he NEEDS it or anything. Just bringing up some changes that wouldn't drastically change the character much.

-7 isnt being punished by anyone in the cast. maybe cassie cage flip kick and the window is so tight its ridiculous. Pressure and space control is what you want with the variation. Remember throwing is the other option for players who catch on to blocking it. The goal is to get your opponent to respect the traps and then take advantage of the plus along with mixups that wont be contested. Putting trap up and waiting for your opponent to make a move helps too for if they don't commit to anything, you know your in control.

 

[Jb879212]

I picked up the character yesterday so i dont punish and combo properly however,I am looking to record some matches and show how I approach the matchup. Hopefully my Buddy gets on today so I can post some footage.

what platform do you play on?

Xbox native.

 

[cambros22]

Xbox native.

Im on pc and ps4

 

[ToxicBaraka1210]

Im on pc and ps4

add me on ps4 zAnxiety . well get some in soon. =P

 

[brizzle]

If you give him an orb that has a hitbox, trapping players would be too easy. Not only do they lose mobility, but you could loop them with ex versions and continue to add more afterwards. The orbs arent meant as a zoning tool, just a pressure one. So you get inside on your opponent and drop one at the end of a combo. Or get a knockdown and ex trap then throw out another single. This baits the player into trying to punish you for being unsafe ending in them getting blown up. Plus restanding combos and his ability to put you in the corner, which is where this pressure thrives, is legit. I think he is fine the way he is. I am on steam,
my tag is :cambros22

I only started using the character yesterday and his potential is crazy. once I get his combos and punishes down, its all about the mind games.

if there is one orb out already no one is goin to attempt to interupt you if you throw another one out lol they know the trap is coming. If you dont have one out already then there going to blow you up because your negative 100