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General/Other - Raiden Let's discuss MoS/Displacer

B

brizzle

MKKI
There's not much talk going on in the raiden forums right now, so let's get some good discussions started. Raiden is all about TG for obvious reasons. His other variations have great potential, but need slight changes. What do you Raidens feel should be done with these variations to make them a good counter over TG. Here's my wish list

B1,1 doesn't wiff
Teleport -19 recovery (only close version)
Phase teleport -9 recovery
Orb stuns on impact
Double/Ex orbs stay connected for 5 seconds

@GGA Dizzy @Nivek @YOMI RM JagoBlake @Chaosphere @delbuster @BigMilk @Zoidberg747
 
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BigMilk

BigMilk

Former Divine Power Abuser
The things I would like to see are displacer teleport being more useful without having to use meter. Also MoS needs less recovery on orbs, because seems like he can't even get a safe orb out after his best knockdown.
 
B

brizzle

MKKI
BigMilk said:
The things I would like to see are displacer teleport being more useful without having to use meter. Also MoS needs less recovery on orbs, because seems like he can't even get a safe orb out after his best knockdown.
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Being plus ten if they block is not worth the effort to set them up IMO. The orbs should be able to control space to work and an orb stunning or connected orbs staying out longer would do this. There is no reason to fear orbs right now
 
Vaiist

Vaiist

Noob
If TG didn't exist, I would look at MoS and say it's perfect. However, when you compare the two, it's insane how much extra stuff TG gets. Realistically though, I'll be conservative and point out one thing that really pisses me off.

Meter burning a full trap should result in it coming out whether you got hit or not. You get a hit of armor, sure, but your trap will fizzle if you get bopped while putting it out. Considering how much harder it is to build meter with that variation, it's kinda bullshit that it can be wasted like that.
 
ShaolinGunFu

ShaolinGunFu

Noob
brizzle said:
What do you think Displacer needs to compete?
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He can already compete if the player is that much better, but when one variation has LRCs, fast strings that dont start with a high etc, it gets hard to choose the other two variations. Give him LRCs and a mid f1 and hed be a whole lot better
 
B

brizzle

MKKI
ShaolinGunFu said:
He can already compete if the player is that much better, but when one variation has LRCs, fast strings that dont start with a high etc, it gets hard to choose the other two variations. Give him LRCs and a mid f1 and hed be a whole lot better
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Hmm see I think TG is balanced good and the other variations are underpowered. Other than raidens OS I think he's fine in TG. If TG was on the level of MoS and Displacer I think he'd be considered mid tier at best.
 
Chaosphere

Chaosphere

The Free Meter Police
TG raiden is fine, minus the b2 OS. Get rid of that I say.

As far as the other two variations go... I've put literally no time into them so I have no clue. I'm still waiting for someone to post max damage combos for MoS and D so I can post them in the combo thread lol.
 
BigMilk

BigMilk

Former Divine Power Abuser
brizzle said:
Being plus ten if they block is not worth the effort to set them up IMO. The orbs should be able to control space to work and an orb stunning or connected orbs staying out longer would do this. There is no reason to fear orbs right now
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What exactly do you mean? Stay active longer even if blocked or connected in open space because then the problem of how do you limit ones control over space/block infinites and other issues arise. So you have to be more clear what exactly you mean. I think an interesting change would be to remove a few frames of recovery, as well as give single orbs a hitbox(like martian normal & mb orb) but only slight advantage like +3 or something. That way they become more viable as a zoning tool but can't be abused as a pressure tool since his orb placement doesn't allow you to place orbs directly on opponents at close range. Now he has a pressure/zoning/counter-zoning variation.
 
ShaolinGunFu

ShaolinGunFu

Noob
Chaosphere said:
TG raiden is fine, minus the b2 OS. Get rid of that I say.

As far as the other two variations go... I've put literally no time into them so I have no clue. I'm still waiting for someone to post max damage combos for MoS and D so I can post them in the combo thread lol.
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the other two variations desperately need b2 to cancel into specials, f1 nerf devestated us and b2 nerf would make them awful
 
B

brizzle

MKKI
BigMilk said:
What exactly do you mean? Stay active longer even if blocked or connected in open space because then the problem of how do you limit ones control over space/block infinites and other issues arise. So you have to be more clear what exactly you mean. I think an interesting change would be to remove a few frames of recovery, as well as give single orbs a hitbox(like martian normal & mb orb) but only slight advantage like +3 or something. That way they become more viable as a zoning tool but can't be abused as a pressure tool since his orb placement doesn't allow you to place orbs directly on opponents at close range. Now he has a pressure/zoning/counter-zoning variation.
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I mean if the orbs are connected in open space and not blocked, then they should stay out about as long as a clone does. As far as the single orb goes, that's exactly what I was thinking as well. Those things really need a hitbox. I thought that since pre launch
 
Vilén

Vilén

too smart to play MKX
MoS is underrated but the orbs do need better recovery. Displacer is a steaming pile of shit. MK9 teleport or bust.

Non-TG variations absolutely do NOT need the LRC. Thunder God barely needs the LRC. The other variations just need their one and only tools to actually be good enough to justify each variation having precisely one and only tool. Nothing needs to be added or subtracted here, just fixed. Because this is how it breaks down now:

Master of Storms: All about setting lightning traps; isn't that great at lightning traps.
Displacer: All about teleporting; is fucking terrible at teleporting
Thunder God: About improved combo and chip damage; has absolutely ALL the combo and chip damage.

(Actually, though as far as "no adding/subtracting" goes, if Displacer Raiden were to get a worthwhile teleport I'd be more than fine with that variation losing B2 and B33 and having them replaced with things that looked and functioned more like his MK9 b312 string and a short string with good range that doesn't really lead to anything on hit other than maybe a confirm into superman)
 
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Jb879212

Jb879212

40 Percent Punish
For displacer just fix the teleport. No reason to use phase or in front teleport at the cost of half a bar of stamina if its going to leave you so minus in front of someone's face. For MoS make adjustments for the traps, I actually like @brizzle concept for the traps though I think a full 10 seconds would actually be sort of broken. Point is for variations that are built around specific tools, those tools have actually turned out to be lackluster.
 
buyacushun

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
I would like less recovery on traps for MoS. A hitbox on orb placement for some nicely spaced pressure would be cool. My main problem with MoS is that when I play I kinda just play Raiden. It might just be me but I feel like I have to go out of my way to put traps up while playing. Which I think stems from the just awful recovery on trap. He has like 2 strings that guarantee a 1st orb. And even then that's all he gets. Not like he places the orb then continues pressure to place another.

Chaosphere said:
TG raiden is fine, minus the b2 OS. Get rid of that I say.

As far as the other two variations go... I've put literally no time into them so I have no clue. I'm still waiting for someone to post max damage combos for MoS and D so I can post them in the combo thread lol.
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I think MoS max damage stuff would just be basic Raiden combos. I don't think his traps lead themselves to combos. He can start combos with them though and there is a thread for all of that.

EDIT: Does anyone know if traps hit more than once on armor? I would love for traps to break armor but he would probably lose something to have complete shutdown if he doesn't already.
 
B

brizzle

MKKI
Jb879212 said:
For displacer just fix the teleport. No reason to use phase or in front teleport at the cost of half a bar of stamina if its going to leave you so minus in front of someone's face. For MoS make adjustments for the traps, I actually like @brizzle concept for the traps though I think a full 10 seconds would actually be sort of broken. Point is for variations that are built around specific tools, those tools have actually turned out to be lackluster.
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Yeah 10 probably would be too long. I just said ten because that's how long a regular orb stays out. 5 seconds would probably be better.
 
Chaosphere

Chaosphere

The Free Meter Police
buyacushun said:
I would like less recovery on traps for MoS. A hitbox on orb placement for some nicely spaced pressure would be cool. My main problem with MoS is that when I play I kinda just play Raiden. It might just be me but I feel like I have to go out of my way to put traps up while playing. Which I think stems from the just awful recovery on trap. He has like 2 strings that guarantee a 1st orb. And even then that's all he gets. Not like he places the orb then continues pressure to place another.



I think MoS max damage stuff would just be basic Raiden combos. I don't think his traps lead themselves to combos. He can start combos with them though and there is a thread for all of that.

EDIT: Does anyone know if traps hit more than once on armor? I would love for traps to break armor but he would probably lose something to have complete shutdown if he doesn't already.
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I dont know basic raiden combos and have yet to see a list. =P
 
Cerebru

Cerebru

Noob
Chaosphere said:
TG raiden is fine, minus the b2 OS. Get rid of that I say.

As far as the other two variations go... I've put literally no time into them so I have no clue. I'm still waiting for someone to post max damage combos for MoS and D so I can post them in the combo thread lol.
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Um... whats wrong with b2os?
 
Raidenwins

Raidenwins

Raiden Practitioner
brizzle said:
There's not much talk going on in the raiden forums right now, so let's get some good discussions started. Raiden is all about TG for obvious reasons. His other variations have great potential, but need slight changes. What do you Raidens feel should be done with these variations to make them a good counter over TG. Here's my wish list

B1,1 doesn't wiff
Teleport -19 recovery (only close version)
Phase teleport -9 recovery
Orb stuns on impact
Double/Ex orbs stay connected for 5 seconds

@GGA Dizzy @Nivek @YOMI RM JagoBlake @Chaosphere @delbuster @BigMilk @Zoidberg747
Click to expand...
For Displacer the obvious solution is to make his normal Teleport more viable by reducing the recovery frames. -19 is a good number (that's the same as in MK9, right?).

Master of Storms is more tricky because the orbs are quite powerful already, it's just that this variation is under represented and hence, under developed, simply because TG is so good. I think the correct solution would be to buff it in such a way that it becomes more viable, but in ways that are different than TG so people would have an incentive to pick the latter over the former. Initially I was thinking that giving MoS the same, or even pre-patch, F1, 2 might have been the solution, but TG has that as well, i.e. it wouldn't really provide any benefits over it.

So now I am of the opinion the best thing to do is to buff his orbs somehow, or even give him a new orb move, such as Revoloving Orbs for example. That would be a move where an orb or two literally revolves around Raiden for a short time and protects him from harm or deflect or absorbs projectiles or some such. Another interesting orb buff might to allow three orbs on the screen at the same time and all three of them form a triangular beam. Either that or single orbs should have some effect on the opponent, like maybe drain a little bit of life or meter or stamina. In that way, the opponent could still walk right through them and keep on with his attack or whatever they were doing, but it'd cost them a little. The point being, a single orb shouldn't be completely harmless.
 
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