Kung Lao vs Cyrax

[Axel_Redd]

Yeah I know I'm just always too cautious to spin, if I used the spin more at good times people would probably be scared to be 'pokey' vs me. But I'm just always scared to have the spin blocked lol

fear is your own worst enemy

 

[Big Pampering]

Yeah I know I'm just always too cautious to spin, if I used the spin more at good times people would probably be scared to be 'pokey' vs me. But I'm just always scared to have the spin blocked lol

The way to make it safer is by having a lot of meter if you do go for the spin. The reason kung lao has such good meter building ability is not only because of his specials and normals but kung lao is a character that should take the risks and takes raw damage for it sometimes but its not that bad to get your spin blocked and punished because you will always gain meter for receiving raw damage. But whats also very important is, you have conditioned your opponent to block the next time they block your teleport 3, which means if they block the next teleport 3 youve ''ensured'' your 1121/21/24/2121 pressure.

The way I see it, if I do go for the spin and get punished I will have gained 1 bar or more from that combo and the next time your opponent has to be prepared for a kung lao with a lot of meter getting in.

pboardplayer

does cyrax punish 21212 with full combo(not the overhead end)? if not he can atleast get a command throw right?

 

[derOeler]

pboardplayer

How did I manage to forget pboard..!
Shame an me.
His recent performance at remdemption was one great lesson for me.

I wonder why he chose ermac over lao against Krayzie.
Reasons I can think of:
- Damage output potential beeing more evend,
- Recent matches against Krayzie
- Or he really thinks ermac is the better matchup.

does cyrax punish 21212 with full combo(not the overhead end)? if not he can atleast get a command throw right?

I am highly positive that he can get a throw in.
But the timing seems strict to me since i was able to interrrupt on many occasions.

 

[ForeverKing]

I am highly positive that he can get a throw in.
But the timing seems strict to me since i was able to interrrupt on many occasions.

Yeah but if he goes for a throw you can just tech it right?

 

[derOeler]

Yeah but if he goes for a throw you can just tech it right?

Yes. mashing d1 does cover poking out and teching command grab.
But then he always has the option to net you.

 

[ForeverKing]

Yes. mashing d1 does cover poking out and teching command grab.
But then he always has the Option to net you.

But who is going to throw out a net that close after 21212? A net on block that close might allow KL to 21 punish. I like this conversation, it is giving me ideas

 

[Big Pampering]

But who is going to throw out a net that close after 21212? A net on block that close might allow KL to 21 punish. I like this conversation, it is giving me ideas

The reason I am liking 21212 lately is because I really think that strings is not supposed to be used on chip only. 21 pressure is something anyone can poke out of as long as it is a neutral crouch move. the classic way to blow that up was to spin to blow up their pokes(which you seem to dislike). But the thing I have been doing is mixing 21212 with 21 pressure for example:

* 21->21->21212
* 21-> 21212
* 21->21->21->21212

(you can always try other strings with it like 24->21->21212)

The dangerous thing about is each time you go for another 21 they will try to poke you. by doing a 21212 in between you will beat their pokes and can hitconfirm it into a spin for 30% without meter if you get the palm strike(29% without). For example: you usually do 21 into 21 into 21. and they poke you after the second 21. all you need to do is 21 into 21212 and you will blow up their poke because the string is still ongoing while they let go of block to poke you)

So this is one of the 'safe' methods I've been using. The reason why it's better than a naked spin is:

- 3% more damage more than a naked spin( I do double dive kick combo and off of a naked spin you get 27%)
- some characters can't punish it or can't punish it with full combo
- if it gets blocked and you get full combo punished, you have at least chipped the opponent with 5%+ chip and build almost one bar from it meaing you have more acces to breaker.
- you can make it safe by canceling 21212 string into ex teleport

also the opponent can't jump out or cross you up to get out of pressure without getting hit mid air, they will escape real damage by getting hit by the standing 2 but you know it is a good option if your opponent has to take damage to escape. also what you need to do is when they keep jumpking out you do a jumpkick+dive kick over them and you will get them for full combo. If they didnt jump, you will chip them with your jumpkick for 2% chip and build meter.

Right now I dont see anything can interrupt this pressure method without blocking the 21212 string when it comes out, armor out, or poke out. Except for characters like reptile,kung lao, sektor because they have a 6 frame standing move that beats standing 2.

sorry for the long post but I felt this stuff was worth mentioning and I haven't seen anyone do it.

Lao players please give me feedback about this stuff and if it isn't good tell me why it isn't good, like ways to counter it and stuff.

 

[Chuckychuck]

Sektor will launch you in between 21 pressure.

 

[Big Pampering]

Sektor will launch you in between 21 pressure.

I said that in my post.

 

[Chuckychuck]

I said that in my post.

Did you edit your post? I must of missed it on my first read. I think the best follow up is to establish an ex teleport after 21212 and then you can do the other stuff.

 

[derOeler]

But who is going to throw out a net that close after 21212? A net on block that close might allow KL to 21 punish. I like this conversation, it is giving me ideas

I meant not only naked net, but string into net.
If he expects you to poke he has a guaranteed 3,3,net, i think.
And since his 1,2 and 2,1 strings advance and 21212 leaves him barely out of poke and (your!) d4 range he can even hitconfirm into net.
But as i said he has to execute on point.

Did you edit your post? I must of missed it on my first read. I think the best follow up is to establish an ex teleport after 21212 and then you can do the other stuff.

That's a good idea. Since its all about staying safe against cyrax that one bar might be worth spending.
I have to practice hitconfirming from 21212..

 

[Axel_Redd]

true that cyrax may poke you, but thats exactly what you want...if you block anything other than a d4 from him, you can spin punish him easy. You'd want to make it look like poking would be a good option...only to block it and blow him up for it.

 

[Big Pampering]

true that cyrax may poke you, but thats exactly what you want...if you block anything other than a d4 from him, you can spin punish him easy. You'd want to make it look like poking would be a good option...only to block it and blow him up for it.

if youre reffering to spinning pokes on block I dont think anyone can do that consistently. actually I would prefer the opponent blocking all day on me so I can chip them as much as I want.

 

[Chuckychuck]

if youre reffering to spinning pokes on block I dont think anyone can do that consistently. actually I would prefer the opponent blocking all day on me so I can chip them as much as I want.

The alternative to spin is to mach 2 since it's just one frame slower and Cyrax does not have a 7 frame d3 so all he has is a d1 that can beat that.

 

[Axel_Redd]

if youre reffering to spinning pokes on block I dont think anyone can do that consistently. actually I would prefer the opponent blocking all day on me so I can chip them as much as I want.

yah but, their gonna try and poke you at some point...i've been working a bit on reacting to that type of stuff...so far i seem to be getting a bit good at it. but i need to practice it against real people tho.

 

[Big Pampering]

The alternative to spin is to mach 2 since it's just one frame slower and Cyrax does not have a 7 frame d3 so all he has is a d1 that can beat that.

it doesnt hit mid... if it did he didnt even really need a spin. and he would be op if it did hit mid like cages f3.

 

[Axel_Redd]

the 1 in 21 doesnt hit mid either...but what about the rest of the string?

 

[Chuckychuck]

it doesnt hit mid... if it did he didnt even really need a spin. and he would be op if it did hit mid like cages f3.

Cyrax has a 9 frame jab and d3. His d1 is +1 on hit and very negative on block. Since you are standing, he will never gain access to anything faster than an 8 frame move.

You can argue that Cyrax can keep d3'ing and that is true as long as you keep doing standing 2's but we all know a spin is going to come out at some point and you will net 30%+ in a few seconds.

 

[Big Pampering]

the 1 in 21 doesnt hit mid either...but what about the rest of the string?

I think youre refferring to mk9 terminology. a 'mid' in normal fighting game terminology is that it hits people on crouch state(also neutral crouch). a mid in mk9 terminology is usually reffered to as an overhead.

 

[Chuckychuck]

the 1 in 21 doesnt hit mid either...but what about the rest of the string?

At d3 range the 1 of 21 will hit Cyrax crouch block or neutral crouch

 

[Big Pampering]

Cyrax has a 9 frame jab and d3. His d1 is +1 on hit and very negative on block. Since you are standing, he will never gain access to anything faster than an 8 frame move.

You can argue that Cyrax can keep d3'ing and that is true as long as you keep doing standing 2's but we all know a spin is going to come out at some point and you will net 30%+ in a few seconds.

I don't think you really understand how to read frame data. any neutral crouch move can beat his standing 2 because it doesnt hit mid, even cyrax's 13 frame d4, and after a d4/d3 on hit he can just pressure you or grab you with his command grab. also spins aren't just there to throw out no good cyrax will machine gun d3 you, they will poke you and on hit they will pressure you. you get your spin blocked or whiffed you will eat a lot more than just 30% from cyrax, cyrax could kill you by that one mistake.

 

[Chuckychuck]

I don't think you really understand how to read frame data. any neutral crouch move can beat his standing 2 because it doesnt hit mid, even cyrax's 13 frame d4, and after a d4/d3 on hit he can just pressure you or grab you with his command grab. also spins aren't just there to throw out no good cyrax will machine gun d3 you, they will poke you and on hit they will pressure you. you get your spin blocked or whiffed you will eat a lot more than just 30% from cyrax, cyrax could kill you by that one mistake.

I believe it is you who doesn't understand frame data. Go look at Cyrax d3 on hit versus a standing opponent then come back.

 

[Axel_Redd]

no i didn't mean the overhead PerfectMindGame i meant that it doesn't connect with a crouching character. i know 21 misses but what about the rest of it?

 

[Big Pampering]

no i didn't mean the overhead PerfectMindGame i meant that it doesn't connect with a crouching character. i know 21 misses but what about the rest of it?

okay, are u serious or trolling, we went over this, go to the lab and pick kung lao against the lowest hitbox character in the game which is mileena. set the cpu to neutral crouch and do 21 and come back to this forum. I told you this like 3 times man.

 

[Big Pampering]

I believe it is you who doesn't understand frame data. Go look at Cyrax d3 on hit versus a standing opponent then come back.

okay...im going to be friendly about this. that is stand specific, but seriously you have some misunderstandings about this game and its hitboxes and frame data if you think standing 2 can punish blocked pokes. also I believe cyrax players use the d4 to start their pressure, because it is a very good d4.