Kung Lao vs Cyrax

[derOeler]

My fellow Shaolinexperts - I need help here.

I tell you what i think. Please correct me or add crucial info i did not seem to implement into my assumptions. My Experience from regular casuals against a great Cyrax and online play:

Due to dat monsterdamage:

I need breaker more than in any other MU, so I obviously dont use xray, enhanced combos or anything metercosting midmatch, except for closing round 1 and 3, and sometimes round 2, when there is no way around it.

Without breaker:
I play defensively. Zoning with hats and divekicks (i should combo of of them more though, miss that too often. standing 3 or spin after landing post divekick ftw^^)
My pressure mainly consists of cut strings, strings into lowhat/throw or tele/crossover.
I very rarely go for speculative spins after strings because without breaker - risk reward is in his favour bigtime.


Full Screen to almost jump distance:
Lowhat works well, straight hats are ok. teleporting nets on reaction for pressure works well. (but a good cyrax doenst spam nets from fullscreen anyway)

Whiffed divekicks to get in are risky- due to net and cyrax dashblocking in.
Also: If cyrax teleports and you hit his invisible tele wall he gets a free punish after reappearing. (so stupid)

Jumpdistance:
Roll is highly risky against that rediculous net. On whiff his neutral jump and antiair punish me hard or at least im in his pressure. Almost the same goes for f2.
Both tools are not as viable against cyrax as in other MUs.

JKDK on reaction against his jumps are great though.

KLs mixup of of a jumpin is easily negated by robos AAjump


Upclose:
My 21, 24(1+2) are superior to his options. But he can poke knowing i hesitate to spin.
His d+4 has almost sonyarange and gives +16 (!) on hit - after which i am stuck in his crazystrong commandgrab shenenigans and 12 pressure.

Speaking of cyrax´12, 12 pressure: it almost seems to have random advantage or a very small window to be able to put out a 6 frame move like d1 or spin in between, although frame data says its neutral on block. Someone out there knows why that is?

His normals are advancing. That pretty much evens out that i have the faster jab.
He is not at all bad upclose.



I tried a very defensive approach getting the lifelead and zoning to going all bonkers impersonating perfect legend on the pad - nothing really works consistantely against cyrax´various tools leading to damagereseted death.


On two sidenotes:

The other day i found out that when cyrax is in the corner against me standing in jumpin distance he can fake a jumpin and cancel into tele.
Result: My Spin hits his invisible tele-wall and i get punished because blocked spin takes more time to recover than a whiffed one.

His second hit in 21 (or 12 - the elbow) covers his head and back and has cost me several rounds, although i read it correctly and jumped in/crossed over well spaced.


I guess he needs it... :tonyt


Please link other members who can contribute.

Anything is welcome.
Thank you in advance.


UsedForGlue PerfectMindGame FOREVER KING A F0xy Grampa Krayzie Konqrr Perfect Legend x5iVE_STAR ETC Mcfly SunnyD

 

[miloPKL]

well, i have a couple days experience with the great Tony T so most of my ideas on Cyrax matchup come from our games. tonys cyrax punishes particularly hard as you might imagine. if you have any specific questions, try me. but all i can say is what works for me;

*punish net on reaction with teleport or DK
*know when its safe to counterpoke out of cyrax pressure or you will be put at disadvantage again
*be very careful if you zone with the hats because trading with cyrax is a deathwish
*be smart when pressuring cyrax and think twice about becoming overly aggressive if cyrax has a lot of meter
*save your meter for breaker, EN tele or EN lo hat - EN lo hat can be a really excellent mind game which counters the opponents zoning and pressure game and if cyrax puts you into a combo, you can consider it a '1 bar breaker' because releasing the hat while cyrax is resetting you will interrupt the attempt in many cases
*use 21212 because it builds precious meter very quickly

5-5

 

[Big Pampering]

well, i have a couple days experience with the great Tony T so most of my ideas on Cyrax matchup come from our games. tonys cyrax punishes particularly hard as you might imagine. if you have any specific questions, try me. but all i can say is what works for me;

*punish net on reaction with teleport or DK
*know when its safe to counterpoke out of cyrax pressure or you will be put at disadvantage again
*be very careful if you zone with the hats because trading with cyrax is a deathwish
*be smart when pressuring cyrax and think twice about becoming overly aggressive if cyrax has a lot of meter
*save your meter for breaker, EN tele or EN lo hat - EN lo hat can be a really excellent mind game which counters the opponents zoning and pressure game and if cyrax puts you into a combo, you can consider it a '1 bar breaker' because releasing the hat while cyrax is resetting you will interrupt the attempt in many cases
*use 21212 because it builds precious meter very quickly

The hitbox of the net is pretty nasty so you would need to jump pretty high to be able to do that, will the dive kick make it? also teleporting nets on reaction doesnt work i think because you need to confirm it is a net coming out of his chest and if you dont react as fast as the moment the chest opens he will get you with his anti air throw. 21212 is not good imo against cyrax because youre gonna eat cyrax pressure with those command grabs. En hat doesnt work that effectively imo when the cyrax player can have a field full of bombs around you.

poking against cyrax shouldnt be done too much imo because of that d4 and if his d1 is 6 frames he will already beat you in the speed department. Kung laos way of beating pokes with spins doesnt work that well because cyrax heavily outdamages him.

6-4 cyrax imo

 

[Wildabeast]

While the risk/ reward factor on randomly spinning heavily favors Cyrax you still are going to have to do it, Kung Lao cannot beat a low hit box character unless he can get them to respect that Spin. It sucks I know but its the truth. Low hat and 21212 should be used sparingly, personally I recommend using 24 more often in match ups like these.

As far as using teleports and dive kicks to punish nets I think you can only do that on reaction at longer distances. Try to keep your distance and check him with occasional hats to encourage him to go for that trade but don't do it too aggressively because if you get caught you're fucked. If you have a life lead make him come to you, cyrax has no traditional chipping projectiles so he has to approach.

The match-up is definitely advantage Cyrax, its winnable for Lao but you have to play it extremely patiently much like Kitana.

 

[Big Pampering]

24 has a weakness where its horrible on whiff unlike 21.

 

[derOeler]

The hitbox of the net is pretty nasty so you would need to jump pretty high to be able to do that, will the dive kick make it?

Yes it does the small 6% punish if you time it on the peak of the jump.
And dont be late. Ever!

24 has a weakness where its horrible on whiff unlike 21.

yes indeed. but sparingly and used as a string itself its great because they always expect a follow up and you gain free pressure.

 

[Wildabeast]

24 has a weakness where its horrible on whiff unlike 21.

I meant in pressure vs low hat or 21212, most people respect the overhead ender and 24 by itself is only minus 1 so its good for baiting pokes. Or you can just end your pressure by going for the overhead since it puts you at a safe distance. Much preferable over 21212 and low hat which if blocked allow Cyrax to get his offense going.

 

[GrandMasterson]

just spin

 

[ETC Mcfly]

@derOeler


1 - keep away with hat low and be aware of when doing spin when jumps.
2 - save bar for the right time to do the reset and break.
3. - when you start the pump and cope with Overhead (->+ 2)

not a great fight but it's the only one I found vs Cyrax
here I leave a long fight .. try doing less teleport that I use

 

[UsedForGlue]

6-4 Lao.

 

[Big Pampering]

I meant in pressure vs low hat or 21212, most people respect the overhead ender and 24 by itself is only minus 1 so its good for baiting pokes. Or you can just end your pressure by going for the overhead since it puts you at a safe distance. Much preferable over 21212 and low hat which if blocked allow Cyrax to get his offense going.

21 on itself is better than all those options imo

 

[Big Pampering]

6-4 Lao.

how do you play the matchup?

 

[xInfra Deadx]

5-5. There's no downplaying Cyrax and his dirty shit.

 

[ForeverKing]

6-4 Lao.

I would say this is 5-5 or if anything just slightly in Cyrax's favor maybe 5.5-4.5
How do you go about KL winning just wondering?

Kung Lao has to play alot more patient and can't do anything unsafe at all. Or else he eats 60+% off of any type of punish from Cyrax. Not only that but Cyrax can try to poke out of all of KL's pressure, and yeah KL can spin if he guesses that Cyrax is going to poke but Cyrax is not exactly the character you want to throw out random spins against and guess wrong lol. Blocked spin equals your almost dead now. I have played this matchup from both sides, being Cyrax and being Kung Lao, and I would say it's a 5-5

 

[derOeler]

3. - when you start the pump and cope with Overhead (->+ 2)

ETC Mcfly
In which situation do you consider the hat swipe an advantagous move? I dont get "start the pump and cope" part.
I found it a very risky move due to whiff recovery and the potential of trading with a net.

For example: I like to use its otg properties after knockdown. But in the cyrax mu, he may just wakeup with that AA Micheal Jackson Jump and fully punish you.

I knew that Video. Great safe pressure. Your execution and speed are amazing.

6-4 Lao.

I feel scrubby now

how do you play the matchup?

This.
Enlight some not toplevel players.

 

[ForeverKing]

Here is an example of pretty much Cyrax and Kung Lao at the highest level. The game can go either way. And Cyrax is never out the match, Kung Lao can have 100% life and Cyrax can have 10% life, with Kung Lao almost flawlessing him and Cyrax can still always make a comeback and win. Never count Cyrax out lol

 

[Big Pampering]

Here is an example of pretty much Cyrax and Kung Lao at the highest level. The game can go either way. And Cyrax is never out the match, Kung Lao can have 100% life and Cyrax can have 10% life, with Kung Lao almost flawlessing him and Cyrax can still always make a comeback and win. Never count Cyrax out lol

why dont you ever spin after teleport 3 on block? I see so many videos of you getting poked out of your pressure and if they try to uppercut you, you can neutral duck it and whiff punish it with 21spin.

 

[ForeverKing]

why dont you ever spin after teleport 3 on block? I see so many videos of you getting poked out of your pressure and if they try to uppercut you, you can neutral duck it and whiff punish it with 21spin.

Because I hardly ever throw out random spins ever, and if I was going to throw out a random spin it wouldn't be against Cyrax. I usually like to play Kung Lao more cautious and safe compared to most Kung Laos like to play wild and all over the screen. But yeah I am getting better at the neutral crouch and punish with 21. I just never play MK anymore, especially since I bought DOA5

 

[derOeler]

Outstanding use of d3, have to implement that.
I use d1s instead, but the one frame less (edit: 2 frames actually) really does not make up for the significant larger hitbox (and less advantage on hit, i think).

Slips: "Forever King...just got hit by the slowest projectile in existence"
rofl

 

[Big Pampering]

Outstanding use of d3, have to implement that.
I use d1s instead, but the one frame less really doesnt make up for the significant larger hitbox (and less advantage on hit, i think).

Slips: "Forever King...just got hit by the slowest projectile in existence"
rofl

kung lao's d1 is 7 frames and d3 is 9 frames. d1 doesnt get you anything significant on hit while d3 does.

 

[Big Pampering]

Because I hardly ever throw out random spins ever, and if I was going to throw out a random spin it wouldn't be against Cyrax. I usually like to play Kung Lao more cautious and safe compared to most Kung Laos like to play wild and all over the screen. But yeah I am getting better at the neutral crouch and punish with 21. I just never play MK anymore, especially since I bought DOA5

I dont think they are random but winter warz poked you every single time you teleported, so it was almost guaranteed he would poke again. Kung lao has to do spins to blow up pokes otherwise characters can poke you all day and you dont get to start any pressure at all.

 

[Wildabeast]

21 on itself is better than all those options imo

Yes it is but you're not gonna get very far using just 21. I'm saying use 24 over 21212 and low hat shenanigans.

 

[Big Pampering]

Yes it is but you're not gonna get very far using just 21. I'm saying use 24 over 21212 and low hat shenanigans.

what does 24 provide you on its own that 21 doesnt?

21 has better frame data on block, can be extended into 2121 hitconfirm into spin. is +6 on hit on its own. whiff punishes/punishes very good

24 is horrible on whiff, -1 on block, stance specific on spin, +4 on hit, does have better range and second hit is low but people should block low against kung lao anyways.

24 has more options but 21 has options that are more significant, solid and rewarding.

 

[ForeverKing]

I dont think they are random but winter warz poked you every single time you teleported, so it was almost guaranteed he would poke again. Kung lao has to do spins to blow up pokes otherwise characters can poke you all day and you dont get to start any pressure at all.

Yeah I know I'm just always too cautious to spin, if I used the spin more at good times people would probably be scared to be 'pokey' vs me. But I'm just always scared to have the spin blocked lol

 

[Krayzie]

pboardplayer