General/Other - Kung Jin Kung Jin General Discussion Thread

[ILuvFightGames]

Depends what you want, Shaolin is a great character and does really well across the whole cast. Easier to play than the other variations too. Not much execution required as well which is nice. There are reasons to use Boj though, such as the really good armor game he has. I couldn't tell you what to play, other than recommend not to main ancestral, more play it for fun imo.

Ah ok cool, is ancestral like too hard to play or something?

 

[Trustypatches]

Mileena controls where KJ controls but better. B12 breaks armor. I have to use armor to get out of the staggers. Have to.

How well do you do against those Mileena because if you are going even then you gotta teach me. She has a tool for every situation.

I wouldn't say I go even with foxy but I do pretty well if I'm honest (considering who it is and all lol). When I lose I feel it's because it's foxy, not because Mileena. The reason I think it's fine is because of how she has to use low Sai full screen because of low chakram low profiling and on trade Jin actually wins (7% vs 6%). When she uses low sai it also puts her at massive risk. You can punish on reaction from CRAZY range with ex divekick. I would recommend labbing it to see for yourself.

Then that brings in her teleport. If you want to beat mileena players you have to get used to punishing the teleport or teleport xx air sai consistently. Personally I d1 aa her when she air sais then convert, and when she just lands without sai I punish with 221. I still mess this up but it is very possible to consistently punish. The reason I say this is important is Mileena's will try and teleport on chakram (which is pretty easy considering its recovery) and so when you bait it you need to punish.

B12 does break Carthweel which sucks but it won't break it at -1 (after b12). This makes it a good option to reversal with especially as it will actually punish her trying to do a d3 check afterwards. It's also hard to make whiff so is a very safe option. F1 is really annoying to deal with seeing as it will blow up all armors and is +2 on the stagger. If you are able to react quickly to the stagger then you can blow up everything but a poke or s2 by using 221. I'm not good at reacting to it but that is where I know I can improve.

As for her b12 in the neutral, Jin actually has a better time whiff punishing it then a lot of others. b1 and b2 being his best options for the whiff punish and divekick if already in the air obviously. Not saying whiff punishing b12 is easy, it is aids lol. b1 on it's own is not going to be whiff punished in my opinion either. I normally ABUSE 11 with Jin in the neutral but I find it near useless in this MU so I rarely use it.

One thing she does really well in the MU is deals with upkick on block. You kind of have to hold her b1 after the drop or even the empty drop (as long as they are on point reacting to it) and you can't armor with cartwheel (or upkick) because b12 will break and they can convert off you being airborne very easily. You can use ex bf3 though the reward for hitting this is very low. That being said, because they know you can't cartwheel they very rarely bait the ex bf3 in my experience. Backdashing is simply not an option from what I've looked at either, because his backdash is not great and b1 easily catches it. You can't jump either because guess what... b1 catches you (although if she does b12 the second hit will whiff and so you don't get punished badly). I actually realized that when I was doing this I had to be very on point to catch the jump forward with b1 so you can go for it and they hope they mess up because then you get a free divekick whiff punish. Anyway this is a weakpoint in the MU for me as you end up eating a lot of reversal throws after upkick because they know you have to hold b12.

I guess the last thing is oki. Jin does just fine here, as he can quite easily break ex ball with 221 and convert so they have to be respectful of that. D3 check is also completely safe on ex ballroll (though after d3 on block she has the 6f d1 now so getting anything at +1 isn't guaranteed with Jin). A thing I like a lot about the MU is her d1 has awful range so you can bait it after things like s1 on block and punish with walk back b1. It is actually possible to walk back and make the d1 whiff after blocked d3 at further ranges which makes the d3 check better.

EDIT: I forgot to talk about her absolute aids jump1. d1 and s2 aa are absolutely useless against this abomination of a jump attack. If she does the crossover properly then it will hit you before you have even autocorrected so you can't aa that on reaction at all. However if it is just a standard crossover s1 aa is his best option in my experience. The only time d1 is good in this MU is on long range jump ins as it also beats jump kicks, though mileena players should never need to rely on random jump ins. I personally don't mind spending the bar on ex cartwheel for the safe aa vs j1.

Sorry for massively long post lmao, I just sort of had a lot to say haha. Let me know if you disagree on anything though.

 

[Trustypatches]

Ah ok cool, is ancestral like too hard to play or something?

Yeah it's very hard to do well with. Once you get your game going it actually has some really strong offense with it's meterless damage and meter drain tied with solid mixups, but the problem is getting the game going. The reason is because you have to have a stun arrow loaded for any of the good stuff, but the stun arrow is on a timer which goes away after 6 seconds. Without the stun arrow you get pitiful damage and so it really makes the variation tough to do well with.

There are some players who I have seen say the variation is good, (Reo I believe?) but with absolute no good things being shown by anyone I am inclined to say it isn't worth playing unless you just want to have fun with it.

 

[Hor_PeT]

@Trustypatches
Great match up analysis/experience thank you for sharing it with us.
I will definitely watch your aspect and apply into my game.

Do you guys use U1 as AA?
I found it quite slow compared to the other AA tools and almost need a read to use it properly it is more difficult to use it on reaction than others (on read we have other options as well).

 

[Trustypatches]

@Trustypatches
Great match up analysis/experience thank you for sharing it with us.
I will definitely watch your aspect and apply into my game.

Do you guys use U1 as AA?
I found it quite slow compared to the other AA tools and almost need a read to use it properly it is more difficult to use it on reaction than others (on read we have other options as well).

U1 aa has such a massive range and a huge disjointed hitbox that as long as you are using it in the right scenario it should always work fine. That being said, because it's slightly slower at 11 frames it has to be used sooner so you have to be more on point, as well as the fact that it doesn't have a low hitbox like d1 and s1 so you have to really use it at the heights of jumps in my experience. I think it's perfectly reasonable to aa on reaction with it, but it's definitely easier with other normals. I feel its best just from slightly further ranges where you know you can't make the jump in whiff and then tripguard or catch them just before they land with b1.

Oh and this is just me personally but I've never liked u1 input. I don't really mess it up but I guess I just take a split second longer to make sure I press both up and 1 at the same time. It's weird, its probably just me but with s1 and d1 I feel I kinda respond faster with that input.

 

[Hor_PeT]

U1 aa has such a massive range and a huge disjointed hitbox that as long as you are using it in the right scenario it should always work fine. That being said, because it's slightly slower at 11 frames it has to be used sooner so you have to be more on point, as well as the fact that it doesn't have a low hitbox like d1 and s1 so you have to really use it at the heights of jumps in my experience. I think it's perfectly reasonable to aa on reaction with it, but it's definitely easier with other normals. I feel its best just from slightly further ranges where you know you can't make the jump in whiff and then tripguard or catch them just before they land with b1.

Oh and this is just me personally but I've never liked u1 input. I don't really mess it up but I guess I just take a split second longer to make sure I press both up and 1 at the same time. It's weird, its probably just me but with s1 and d1 I feel I kinda respond faster with that input.

Well, personally using U1 is not so comfortable to me either. I also feel too slow with it but it might be just the input. With D2 i am still faster lol.
i am not good at trip guard yet and often I am jumped in from good range so I really have to react something. Worst case the Block but with Kung Jin it is luxury.

 

[Parasurama]

U1 aa has such a massive range and a huge disjointed hitbox that as long as you are using it in the right scenario it should always work fine. That being said, because it's slightly slower at 11 frames it has to be used sooner so you have to be more on point, as well as the fact that it doesn't have a low hitbox like d1 and s1 so you have to really use it at the heights of jumps in my experience. I think it's perfectly reasonable to aa on reaction with it, but it's definitely easier with other normals. I feel its best just from slightly further ranges where you know you can't make the jump in whiff and then tripguard or catch them just before they land with b1.

Oh and this is just me personally but I've never liked u1 input. I don't really mess it up but I guess I just take a split second longer to make sure I press both up and 1 at the same time. It's weird, its probably just me but with s1 and d1 I feel I kinda respond faster with that input.

For cross ups- do you use s1? And d1? Jik usually wins. I find the only consistent AA is ex db4 (cartwheel). And also for close up jump ins after being knocked down. I hate people jumping on me, looking for people with other options. I notice that Slayer anti airs well with d1 what do you guys do?

 

[Hor_PeT]

I was quite upset after playing with a sub zero who always crosses up after hkd and 50/50. Always after everything.
Against sub zero default AA doesnt work really.

As he did the cross up I couldnt wake up properly either as the direction changed lol.
Sometime I find exCartweel whiff against cross up thats so annoying especially on wakeup.

Ex Upkick or ex fly kick however a good but costy escape on wakeup if you dont mess up lol.

I am bad at trip guard I rather NjP on read but it is not the best solution. Need better posioning and control.

 

[FinalBoss_FGC]

@Trustypatches
Great match up analysis/experience thank you for sharing it with us.
I will definitely watch your aspect and apply into my game.

Do you guys use U1 as AA?
I found it quite slow compared to the other AA tools and almost need a read to use it properly it is more difficult to use it on reaction than others (on read we have other options as well).

You should never be scared to throw out u1 in the neutral.

It recovers deceptively fast and is plus on block. Even if you whiff it, it does remind the opponent that it is there. Do the same with 11 in ji range. They are easy to confirm off of, just ia divekick into full punish.

I do find myself using u1 less and less, I think it's because 1 and 11 are so good in the neutral...but sometimes I will run in and u1 just to check their njp or ji attempt...cuz like I said, as long as I hit them, I'm fine.

 

[Trustypatches]

For cross ups- do you use s1? And d1? Jik usually wins. I find the only consistent AA is ex db4 (cartwheel). And also for close up jump ins after being knocked down. I hate people jumping on me, looking for people with other options. I notice that Slayer anti airs well with d1 what do you guys do?

First of all it's very MU dependant for crossover jump punches. My main rule is that if the character keeps a very high jump arc while crossing over then s1 is your best option because d1 will just not reach them (examples are Tremor, Scorpion, Predator(?), Reptile(?), Jax(?), Kano(?) and probably a load more but I can't think off the top of my head). So I use s1 for these.

Then there are crossovers which are extremely fast, autocorrect very quickly and some that just seem to make s1 whiff... and so it's faaaaar more reliable to low profile aa with d1 as long as their jump in doesn't hit too deep. Examples of these are Sonya, Kotal, Kitana and again a load more but I can't think off the top of my head right now. S2 is another aa that is surprisingly good so if you are struggling to aa a certain character I would say try messing with that.

When it comes to AA'ing jump kicks on crossover it's very hard to do without bar, and some MU's you just won't beat them out, but the normal that I have most success with against jump kicks is s1 for sure. For characters like Sub I don't try to stop them on crossover and I will just opt to ex cartwheel. This does whiff though so you will want to use it as late as you can. Upkick is even worse for whiffing though.

If they are jumping on you being knocked down then that's likely a situation where you won't be able to aa as they're jump will be hitting you on your first getup frames. Doing a short delay wakeup is effective here because it makes their jump whiff and they have to recover.

 

[Parasurama]

First of all it's very MU dependant for crossover jump punches. My main rule is that if the character keeps a very high jump arc while crossing over then s1 is your best option because d1 will just not reach them (examples are Tremor, Scorpion, Predator(?), Reptile(?), Jax(?), Kano(?) and probably a load more but I can't think off the top of my head). So I use s1 for these.

Then there are crossovers which are extremely fast, autocorrect very quickly and some that just seem to make s1 whiff... and so it's faaaaar more reliable to low profile aa with d1 as long as their jump in doesn't hit too deep. Examples of these are Sonya, Kotal, Kitana and again a load more but I can't think off the top of my head right now. S2 is another aa that is surprisingly good so if you are struggling to aa a certain character I would say try messing with that.

When it comes to AA'ing jump kicks on crossover it's very hard to do without bar, and some MU's you just won't beat them out, but the normal that I have most success with against jump kicks is s1 for sure. For characters like Sub I don't try to stop them on crossover and I will just opt to ex cartwheel. This does whiff though so you will want to use it as late as you can. Upkick is even worse for whiffing though.

If they are jumping on you being knocked down then that's likely a situation where you won't be able to aa as they're jump will be hitting you on your first getup frames. Doing a short delay wakeup is effective here because it makes their jump whiff and they have to recover.

Thanks, Sub Zero has the most irritating jump attacks. I appreciate your advice.

 

[Hor_PeT]

You should never be scared to throw out u1 in the neutral.

It recovers deceptively fast and is plus on block. Even if you whiff it, it does remind the opponent that it is there. Do the same with 11 in ji range. They are easy to confirm off of, just ia divekick into full punish.

I do find myself using u1 less and less, I think it's because 1 and 11 are so good in the neutral...but sometimes I will run in and u1 just to check their njp or ji attempt...cuz like I said, as long as I hit them, I'm fine.

Yeah that makes sense. I watched that 1/11 check from all the high level players from the whole cast (1/11 usually plus on block) but especially with KJ. Thats the lowest risk check on read/just check.
KJ has U1 check too. I didnt analyse its recovery but for the first glance it seemed I never want to whiff it.

I will definitely apply that checks into my game. I do it sometimes but it is not in my vains. But hey I am a fresh KJ player.
Other characters I played had not that far reaching s1/11 to play with (nor the NjP). New style to control the game.
I need to get used to it.
On read I use NjP against anything now but it should be just one possible way.

 

[MrArcher15]

Is shaolin still a good variation to use

 

[CrazyFingers]

Is shaolin still a good variation to use

yes

 

[MrArcher15]

yes

Okay, I like him but everybody seems to be leaning more towards ancestral

 

[Tweedy]

People are playing Ancestral because he's like a shiny new toy while Shaolin is still probably the best IMO.

You just have to hit confirm your upkick and drop, vs players who know how to deal with it. Stagger B123, cancel into 50/50 specials, throw more, etc. His spacing is still great and I think they fixed the whiffing issue with his NJP.

 

[CrazyFingers]

People are playing Ancestral because he's like a shiny new toy while Shaolin is still probably the best IMO.

You just have to hit confirm your upkick and drop, vs players who know how to deal with it. Stagger B123, cancel into 50/50 specials, throw more, etc. His spacing is still great and I think they fixed the whiffing issue with his NJP.

It's also important to note that Bojutsu is still good too.

 

[Tweedy]

It's also important to note that Bojutsu is still good too.

Idk I think it's kinda buns.

 

[MrArcher15]

Interesting thanks a lot guys Ima keep practicing with him

 

[CrazyFingers]

Idk I think it's kinda buns.

I disagree man, he's got stuff.

 

[RM NoBrows]

People are playing Ancestral because he's like a shiny new toy while Shaolin is still probably the best IMO.

You just have to hit confirm your upkick and drop, vs players who know how to deal with it. Stagger B123, cancel into 50/50 specials, throw more, etc. His spacing is still great and I think they fixed the whiffing issue with his NJP.

Other then gunshow, who's been playing ancestral?

 

[Tweedy]

Other then gunshow, who's been playing ancestral?

Iluusions

 

[RM NoBrows]

TBH he's slightly better. The arrow specific buffs helped a lot but Ancestral still isn't his best variation. I've been playing Ancestral since ect 2015 and now he's just slightly safer with better zoning

 

[Parasurama]

TBH he's slightly better. The arrow specific buffs helped a lot but Ancestral still isn't his best variation. I've been playing Ancestral since ect 2015 and now he's just slightly safer with better zoning

I remember you were playing with him back then. but this patch was a reason for me to get into ancestral and it might be easier than getting used to Shaolin being unsafe on upkicks and stuff. It is also less meter dependent. I think Boju is good still as well, and while Shaolin is still good, he is not the same. They seem to be on a similar level now.

#KJ slow overhead

 

[Tweedy]

I disagree man, he's got stuff.

I just don't understand why he would ever be used > Shaolin.

Slower overhead and a meta with better zoning, does not bode well for Bojutsu imo. I don't understand how being +3 for a bar is a big deal either.

I know his flame is a good anti air check, similar to Jacqui's rocket, but I don't think that that is enough to consider the variation for high level play. It also doesn't combo(at least not easily), without meter. I'd rather have Jacqui's rocket or Alien's U3.