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General/Other - Kotal Kahn Kotal Kahn General Discussion

What is your favorite Variation?

  • War God

    Votes: 170 42.0%
  • Sun God

    Votes: 139 34.3%
  • Blood God

    Votes: 61 15.1%
  • All Equally

    Votes: 35 8.6%

  • Total voters
    405
I'm really looking forward to the new Kotal. Of course it hurts him that b1 is a high, but I totally accept that for the buffs he's getting and the new context of the game.

The new context of the game is that jumpins are more antiairable, running is a worse way to get in, run cancel pressure is worse, overheads are worse so high/low games are worse, there are fewer heavily advantaged moves so frame traps are worse, and there are fewer armored launchers for damaging escapes. As a result, being able to control the midrange game with strong footsies & antiairs will be even more important, and not having the best armored moves to interrupt oppressive pressure will be less important. Sounds like our guy to me!

I'm really stoked to control the midrange with stronger f1 & f12. Those tools have always had great range and control, but now f1 being -2 with more pushback and f12 being just -1 instead of both being -6, they're so much more useful. D4 on hit jailing into f1 now actually matters!

I'm also excited to pressure with b32 both starting from outside the b3's range in footsies and starting from up close. Having a forward moving, meterless, plus on block normal string is gonna be sick.

I still think there's a strong role for b1. B12 from far footsies is still legit. And if someone wants to risk neutral ducking a b1, they now risk getting hit by safe f1 or advantaged b32 or even moonshot f2. It's not like he lacks for strong mids.

I'm also really happy that jump ins will be hittable before their hitboxes come out because that means Kotal's antiairs will be even stronger. At the same time, he still has that far range where empty jumping leaves him too far for most antiairs but j1 can touch the opponent, meaning he can still attack credibly from the air. That might even be more important now because from max range j1 he'll be able to land with safe f12 to take up all the space.

Also, blood god's poor defensive options are now less important because the game is less about having to deal with offensive bs and more about control. Since I think Kotal will be stronger in the midrange and characters can't punish with run into whatever as well, he might be able to get more totems up in the neutral game. Defense totem going away faster kinda sucks on one hand, but on the other it means he has more control over which totem is out at any one time.

As for war god, I'm really interested to see what f1's greater pushback looks like for the context of canceling into sword mixups. It would be sick if f1 pushed opponents into max low sword range for better safety, or if it pushed them far enough that they'd have a harder time interrupting f1 to sword toss or if sword toss would start from far enough that it'd end up with more than +13 and +10 on ex. No armor on ex overhead hurts him, but that's a gamewide change so I'm not sure it makes him any worse relative to the rest of the cast.

The b1 nerf definitely hurts sun god since it's such an important tick into command grab. But again, neutral ducking against Kotal is risky! And in the context of this patch, just having a command grab at all is strong because the other main mixups (overhead/low and frame traps) are worse. F1 doesn't tick into command grab, but if you're doing f12 all day because it seems like you'll probably be able to do f12 all day, you might be able to squeeze a f1 into command grab in as well. In any case, he has other buttons that tick into grab, and you don't always need to tick into it anyway. Y'all know you can ex grab combos from hits right? What about f1 ex db2 in footsies, get ex grab on hit & safe f12 on whiff?

I'm excited!
 
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ProudDisciple

Average at Best
I'm really looking forward to the new Kotal. Of course it hurts him that b1 is a high, but I totally accept that for the buffs he's getting and the new context of the game.

The new context of the game is that jumpins are more antiairable, running is a worse way to get in, run cancel pressure is worse, overheads are worse so high/low games are worse, there are fewer heavily advantaged moves so frame traps are worse, and there are fewer armored launchers for damaging escapes. As a result, being able to control the midrange game with strong footsies & antiairs will be even more important, and not having the best armored moves to interrupt oppressive pressure will be less important. Sounds like our guy to me!

I'm really stoked to control the midrange with stronger f1 & f12. Those tools have always had great range and control, but now f1 being -2 with more pushback and f12 being just -1 instead of both being -6, they're so much more useful. D4 on hit jailing into f1 now actually matters!

I'm also excited to pressure with b32 both starting from outside the b3's range in footsies and starting from up close. Having a forward moving, meterless, plus on block normal string is gonna be sick.

I still think there's a strong role for b1. B12 from far footsies is still legit. And if someone wants to risk neutral ducking a b1, they now risk getting hit by safe f1 or advantaged b32 or even moonshot f2. It's not like he lacks for strong mids.

I'm also really happy that jump ins will be hittable before their hitboxes come out because that means Kotal's antiairs will be even stronger. At the same time, he still has that far range where empty jumping leaves him too far for most antiairs but j1 can touch the opponent, meaning he can still attack credibly from the air. That might even be more important now because from max range j1 he'll be able to land with safe f12 to take up all the space.

Also, blood god's poor defensive options are now less important because the game is less about having to deal with offensive bs and more about control. Since I think Kotal will be stronger in the midrange and characters can't punish with run into whatever as well, he might be able to get more totems up in the neutral game. Defense totem going away faster kinda sucks on one hand, but on the other it means he has more control over which totem is out at any one time.

As for war god, I'm really interested to see what f1's greater pushback looks like for the context of canceling into sword mixups. It would be sick if f1 pushed opponents into max low sword range for better safety, or if it pushed them far enough that they'd have a harder time interrupting f1 to sword toss or if sword toss would start from far enough that it'd end up with more than +13 and +10 on ex. No armor on ex overhead hurts him, but that's a gamewide change so I'm not sure it makes him any worse relative to the rest of the cast.

The b1 nerf definitely hurts sun god since it's such an important tick into command grab. But again, neutral ducking against Kotal is risky! And in the context of this patch, just having a command grab at all is strong because the other main mixups (overhead/low and frame traps) are worse. F1 doesn't tick into command grab, but if you're doing f12 all day because it seems like you'll probably be able to do f12 all day, you might be able to squeeze a f1 into command grab in as well. In any case, he has other buttons that tick into grab, and you don't always need to tick into it anyway. Y'all know you can ex grab combos from hits right? What about f1 ex db2 in footsies, get ex grab on hit & safe f12 on whiff?

I'm excited!
Thanks for the input
I honestly would not have thought about what you stated
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
I dont have any problem with them taking his blockstun away, i think its actually fair


Killer leatherface is a totally different character and no you cant do that to every character
Back to kotal, blood god can do that because of his really good durability something that wargod doesnt have


by 90% i meant in wargod specific tools
and no, his ex db1 is a great armor launcher move in this game, great range, no hurtbox on the sword, overhead, good chip damage, and good damage after a successful ex db1
Welp I guess we'll find out just how important that armor was cuz it's gone now which stings. BUT WHAT STINGS MORE IS B1. I don't think he's dead, think he's quite alive and it's just a matter of waiting and seeing :D
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
I'm really looking forward to the new Kotal. Of course it hurts him that b1 is a high, but I totally accept that for the buffs he's getting and the new context of the game.

The new context of the game is that jumpins are more antiairable, running is a worse way to get in, run cancel pressure is worse, overheads are worse so high/low games are worse, there are fewer heavily advantaged moves so frame traps are worse, and there are fewer armored launchers for damaging escapes. As a result, being able to control the midrange game with strong footsies & antiairs will be even more important, and not having the best armored moves to interrupt oppressive pressure will be less important. Sounds like our guy to me!

I'm really stoked to control the midrange with stronger f1 & f12. Those tools have always had great range and control, but now f1 being -2 with more pushback and f12 being just -1 instead of both being -6, they're so much more useful. D4 on hit jailing into f1 now actually matters!

I'm also excited to pressure with b32 both starting from outside the b3's range in footsies and starting from up close. Having a forward moving, meterless, plus on block normal string is gonna be sick.

I still think there's a strong role for b1. B12 from far footsies is still legit. And if someone wants to risk neutral ducking a b1, they now risk getting hit by safe f1 or advantaged b32 or even moonshot f2. It's not like he lacks for strong mids.

I'm also really happy that jump ins will be hittable before their hitboxes come out because that means Kotal's antiairs will be even stronger. At the same time, he still has that far range where empty jumping leaves him too far for most antiairs but j1 can touch the opponent, meaning he can still attack credibly from the air. That might even be more important now because from max range j1 he'll be able to land with safe f12 to take up all the space.

Also, blood god's poor defensive options are now less important because the game is less about having to deal with offensive bs and more about control. Since I think Kotal will be stronger in the midrange and characters can't punish with run into whatever as well, he might be able to get more totems up in the neutral game. Defense totem going away faster kinda sucks on one hand, but on the other it means he has more control over which totem is out at any one time.

As for war god, I'm really interested to see what f1's greater pushback looks like for the context of canceling into sword mixups. It would be sick if f1 pushed opponents into max low sword range for better safety, or if it pushed them far enough that they'd have a harder time interrupting f1 to sword toss or if sword toss would start from far enough that it'd end up with more than +13 and +10 on ex. No armor on ex overhead hurts him, but that's a gamewide change so I'm not sure it makes him any worse relative to the rest of the cast.

The b1 nerf definitely hurts sun god since it's such an important tick into command grab. But again, neutral ducking against Kotal is risky! And in the context of this patch, just having a command grab at all is strong because the other main mixups (overhead/low and frame traps) are worse. F1 doesn't tick into command grab, but if you're doing f12 all day because it seems like you'll probably be able to do f12 all day, you might be able to squeeze a f1 into command grab in as well. In any case, he has other buttons that tick into grab, and you don't always need to tick into it anyway. Y'all know you can ex grab combos from hits right? What about f1 ex db2 in footsies, get ex grab on hit & safe f12 on whiff?

I'm excited!
Leave it to UltraDavid to be positive. F1 being a better stagger helps mostly blood god and yea war god can use it. Sun God is who I'm worried about tho, he got hit the hardest out of the three.
 

mkl

Poopbutt.
Had to sign back on simply to laugh my ass off about b1 being changed to a high. The balls on NRS to take one of the fairest characters in the game and toss him through the shredder is hilarious. The run nerf is also a head scratcher. That affects Kotal because his run is absolutely second to none.

I totally acknowledge that these changes might be completely necessary in the context of this new version of the game.
 
What was so fair about constant b1 stagger into whatever option Kotal wants? B1 as a high is not the end of the world. If you cant see past b1,I have some bad news for you.
 

Osagri

Fear the blade of Osh-Tekk
Damn it's gonna take awhile to get used to b1 being a high . But the meaty b32 is rly good.
 

mkl

Poopbutt.
Damn they didn't even touch on the parry...
Does EX still act like an invincible move on wakeup instead of a parry, thus making it useless?

What was so fair about constant b1 stagger into whatever option Kotal wants? B1 as a high is not the end of the world. If you cant see past b1,I have some bad news for you.
You can legitimately use this argument against 80% of the cast. This game was hyper aggressive and block string into 50/50 heavy. It might not be that way anymore, and I hope it isn't-- but b1 bullshit was Kotal's answer to a lot of problems with the game itself.

Anyway-- Blood God seems to have made out the best with the system wide changes and Kotal's changes themselves. Very interested to see where this takes him.
 
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VSC_Supreme

TYM's #1 L taker.
Dropped the game awhile ago as i don't have a PS4 but looks like i'll have to get one again to try out this new Kotal and see how the meta has changed. Going to be weird not falling back on to B1 anymore.
 

loogie

Noob
Had to sign back on simply to laugh my ass off about b1 being changed to a high. The balls on NRS to take one of the fairest characters in the game and toss him through the shredder is hilarious. The run nerf is also a head scratcher. That affects Kotal because his run is absolutely second to none.

I totally acknowledge that these changes might be completely necessary in the context of this new version of the game.
fair?
he was mixup city ffs, still is .. once he got in with b1, its over. you have to guess.
and don't tell me he had gaps or has gaps, it was a total mindfuk when he is upclose. and good luck if he has a bar as well.
 

Khaoz77

Don't run, you're gonna trip...
fair?
he was mixup city ffs, still is .. once he got in with b1, its over. you have to guess.
and don't tell me he had gaps or has gaps, it was a total mindfuk when he is upclose. and good luck if he has a bar as well.
Just because you get mindfucked because a God is in your face don't mean he doesn't have gaps.

To the training mode with you!
 
I found a bug in which Cassie can interrupt Kotals EX Sun God Choke. Also you now can't duck under the command grab.
Here a short video I recorded which includes the bug.
 

DDutchguy

Stand 4'ing airplanes out of the sky
I found a bug in which Cassie can interrupt Kotals EX Sun God Choke. Also you now can't duck under the command grab.
Here a short video I recorded which includes the bug.
Good ol' weird hitboxes, thanks for posting this. Sun God's DB2 was not duckable pre-patch as well by the way.
 
about wargod:

nerfs to run, nerfs to his sword throw plus frames and removing his armor launcher was way more then enough to keep him tamed, but losing his b1 too.................... (even if he gets his b1 back, hes gonna end up mid tier at best)

now its okay to take back all of the useless buffs away (b32 is good but not that good, yeah take that away too) and give him his b1 back, at least to wargod (his most closeup variation)

until then his trash and i dont say that word often
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and before you come and tell me dude its been only 2 days, you can just wait and see it for yourself how this variation will struggle in many match ups
 

jharris

I'm not surprised, motherfuckers
blood gods best now imo, but the nerfs to obsidian totem make it meh. ive been abusing b32 on knockdown which is fun.
 

mkl

Poopbutt.
Maaaaaaaaan, EX Parry still acts invincible on wakeup. Paulo said he would look into and try to fix this a full year ago.
 

ATP2014

The best mediocre Batman
The pressure after 114 air grab is significantly worse imo. Opponents disrespect b1 follow ups, and the start up of f1 is 11 frames means you will lose out to 7 frame normals.
 

Toodrunk2combo

Sub and kotal FTW
Everyone is so worried about b1, I feel like I'm the only one who used d3 to tick throw with sg :) There's still s1,d3,d4, for tick throws and now that people can't duck the choke sg still seems just as good.