What's new

Move List - Kotal Kahn What the new patch means for Kotal

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Here we are with the new patch.

Let's list the changes for Kotal below.

  • Kotal Kahn - Away+FP now hits high
  • Kotal Kahn - Sunstone is now 0 on block (down from +5)
  • Kotal Kahn - Burning Sunstone is now +6 on block (down from +15)
  • Kotal Kahn - Towards+FP is now -2 on block (up from -6) and had the pushback increased
  • Kotal Kahn - Towards+FP,BP is now -1 on block (up from -6)
  • Kotal Kahn - Away+FK,BP is now +2 on block (up from -3) and had the pushback increased
  • Kotal Kahn (Blood God) - Obsidian Totem now lasts for 240 frames (down from 400)
  • Kotal Kahn (War God) - Sword Takedown & Sword Quake now have 2 hits of armor
  • Kotal Kahn (War God) - Overhead Sword Smash no longer has armor
  • Kotal Kahn (War God) - Sword Toss is now +13 on block (down from -+18)
  • Kotal Kahn (War God) - Spinning Sword Toss is now +10 on block (down from +20)
  • Kotal Kahn (Sun God) - Moon God Choke now has 2 hits of armor
MOST IMPORTANT NERFS

- B1 is high
- Obsidian totem lasts for 4 seconds instead of 6,6
- Overhead sword no longer has armour
- EX sunstone is +6

MOST IMPORTANT BUFFS


- F1 is -2 with increased pushback
- F12 is -2
- B32 is now + even with its huge range and allows for pressure

What do those mean for Kotal?

It means that he can no longer completely dominate the ground game. He also has no full combo armoured reversal anymore. His B1 pressure is also crippled in comparison to the previous patch.

DOES THIS MEAN KOTAL IS BAD?

No, definitely not, let's look at the system changes first of all.

Most Reversals that grant a full combo have been eliminated. Great change. Why? Because it makes pressure a lot less about 50-50 and a lot more about good spacing, footsies and reads. This benefits us in several ways.

No more full combo punishes for pressuring someone on wakeup
No more full combo punishes for cancelling strings into sunstone by mashing armour
No more full combo punishes for mixing people up with swords before your overhead/low is out

WHY WAS HE NERFED? HE WAS PERFECTLY FINE.

Yes, he was. In the previous patch.

The game is now revolving around the ground game without crutches like armour to help you. Which means you simply cannot have characters with 3+ options of safe, forward-moving, cancellable and impossible to backdash moves. I'm sorry.

But wait, there's more. How many times have you ever backdashed anything Kotal has done? 0, because B1 catches 60% of the cast's backdashes at nearly any + number. Those he doesn't catch are caught by B12.

So, we have established that in a footsified version of MKX, Kotal would have been a ridiculously dominant character with buttons that are safe, leads to mixups, cannot be backdashed, anti air and move him forward a significant amount.


What do we do now? How do variations like Sun god even work with B1 being high?

Play footsies. B1 being high doesn't mean it's useless. If someone is respecting your range, they are blocking and not ducking it. Things like D4 into run B1 command grab are still great.

F1 has been buffed. For those of you who didn't use it much, it was a different version of B1. What did it do over B1?

- Anti aired better
- Was VERY difficult to react to if staggered EVEN at -6.
- It moved further

How do you use it now?

For starters, it's now only -2. This staggerable normal is even less -. You use it to poke and complete it every now and then to punish people moving. Or armour. Sun choke is a fucking bitch to escape after a F1 stagger.

It also leaves you in a great distance for B1, D4, etc. Kotal still retains 6f pokes, so you can definitely harass a good number of the cast in the post-F1 game.

Mix it up with B1 and F2.

What about meter? Our + frames can now be armoured through!

Huge buff. Yes, they can armour through our shit. For 10% damage. Now, so can you.

This weakens both of your pressure. Who benefits from weakened pressure? Characters who can't take the heat, characters that can put their resources into better use, characters who can re-engage faster than the others, characters with the advantage in neutral.

Don't forget that, because of the reduction in damage from interrupting with armour, some characters would rather save their meter and take the pressure.

Or the opposite. Having them use their meter to trade with yours in the case of your EX projectiles ( which btw do more damage to them ) and then have no breaker for when you inevitably whiff punish something.

Pick one category that Kotal doesn't fit in.

You still catch backdashes with F1. You still full combo punish button mashers with F1B2

The new Meter metagame

You notice that now that we have less full combo reversals to be caught by and more time standing up, you have more meter. Less herpaderp EX rolls, spins and more of the sort to bait and use your breaker on. With the shift to the new reversal philosophy of non comboable moves being the ones who have armour, you don't have to worry about yolo or even the threat of the wakeup is some cases.

Which brings us to a very important change. Meter. You have more.

What were some great things Kotal had but just couldn't spare the meter for?

EX Sunstone/Macuahuitl
EX Sun offering
EX Sun choke
Pushblock

How often were you saving meter for that 1 time you thought "He might wake up or land a jump in into a 50-50."?

The meter that would have gone into those situations can now be used to armour more, regain health fast, get out of pressure and reset to neutral where by almost default it's in your favor, etc.

Just a short analysis. Let's hear your thoughts.
 
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Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
When I saw the EX Pizza nerf I forgot armor only gets you a small amount of damage now, good point there.

I hope F1 staggers are good as they sound now. I think they used to be a gimmick before at -6 on block +6 on hit, but now with -2 on block and armor nerf it should be much better.

If B1 is a high but connects on crouch blocking opponents it will be a lot less worse. I just hope it's not like his S1 right now.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
When I saw the EX Pizza nerf I forgot armor only gets you a small amount of damage now, good point there.

I hope F1 staggers are good as they sound now. I think they used to be a gimmick before at -6 on block +6 on hit, but now with -2 on block and armor nerf it should be much better.

If B1 is a high but connects on crouch blocking opponents it will be a lot less worse. I just hope it's not like his S1 right now.
Don't forget that, because of the reduction in damage from interrupting with armour, some characters would rather save their meter and take the pressure.

Or the opposite. Having them use their meter to trade with yours ( which btw does more damage to them ) and then have no breaker for when you inevitably whiff punish something.
 

Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
Oh and I just thought of something big, we lost b1 on oki but now we can do b32 instead. We'll be +2 at least on block and on hit it has a really good knockdown. +2 on block is ofc great since we have 6f pokes to check the opponent.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Quark I fucking love you man. I almost forgot how dumb F1 stagger already was (shame on me, I used the shit out of that) and now it's even better AND I have more reason to use B32. Kotal's not dead, infact, he's better than ever boys! UP THE STAIRCASE...fuck I need to change my Sun God guide.
 

Vigilante24

Beware my power, Red Lantern's Light
Ultradavid exposed me on twitter. :(

Great points man. I am still heading over to Warlock/Sorcerer Quan since I have always preferred a zoning defensive playstyle in every game I have played, but at least now I might not completely drop Kotal. I may play him on occasion.
 

LeeVanDam

Sun God Advocate
Very nice analysis Qwark! Since I'll be playing XL for the first time starting tomorrow, I have a couple of questions.

has 1,1,4 > air throw on block been messed with?

How exactly does the Sun God Choke comboing on hit work when not used in a juggle?
 

Slavaslave

Professional Casual
incredibly excited for the f12 buff, being -1 is way bigger than I think people are thinking. This move puts kotal at the ideal range for all his options, I will be hitting the lab hard tomorrow to figure out all the new setup coming from the string buffs.
 

Slavaslave

Professional Casual
Very nice analysis Qwark! Since I'll be playing XL for the first time starting tomorrow, I have a couple of questions.

has 1,1,4 > air throw on block been messed with?

How exactly does the Sun God Choke comboing on hit work when not used in a juggle?
I'm not quwark, but no 114xxairthrow hasnt been touched unless it is unlisted. Here's praying the hitbox on ferra/torr and goro issues have been fixed. I am not sure what you mean about the sun choke, but if I am interpreting right it means when you MB sun choke on some strings it will connect even after a hit (from the string) when it would only usually connect after a block.
 

Osagri

Fear the blade of Osh-Tekk
Here we are with the new patch.

Let's list the changes for Kotal below.

  • Kotal Kahn - Away+FP now hits high
  • Kotal Kahn - Sunstone is now 0 on block (down from +5)
  • Kotal Kahn - Burning Sunstone is now +6 on block (down from +15)
  • Kotal Kahn - Towards+FP is now -2 on block (up from -6) and had the pushback increased
  • Kotal Kahn - Towards+FP,BP is now -1 on block (up from -6)
  • Kotal Kahn - Away+FK,BP is now +2 on block (up from -3) and had the pushback increased
  • Kotal Kahn (Blood God) - Obsidian Totem now lasts for 240 frames (down from 400)
  • Kotal Kahn (War God) - Sword Takedown & Sword Quake now have 2 hits of armor
  • Kotal Kahn (War God) - Overhead Sword Smash no longer has armor
  • Kotal Kahn (War God) - Sword Toss is now +13 on block (down from -+18)
  • Kotal Kahn (War God) - Spinning Sword Toss is now +10 on block (down from +20)
  • Kotal Kahn (Sun God) - Moon God Choke now has 2 hits of armor
MOST IMPORTANT NERFS

- B1 is high
- Obsidian totem lasts for 4 seconds instead of 6,6
- Overhead sword no longer has armour
- EX sunstone is +6

MOST IMPORTANT BUFFS


- F1 is -2 with increased pushback
- F12 is -2
- B32 is now + even with its huge range and allows for pressure

What do those mean for Kotal?

It means that he can no longer completely dominate the ground game. He also has no full combo armoured reversal anymore. His B1 pressure is also crippled in comparison to the previous patch.

DOES THIS MEAN KOTAL IS BAD?

No, definitely not, let's look at the system changes first of all.

Most Reversals that grant a full combo have been eliminated. Great change. Why? Because it makes pressure a lot less about 50-50 and a lot more about good spacing, footsies and reads. This benefits us in several ways.

No more full combo punishes for pressuring someone on wakeup
No more full combo punishes for cancelling strings into sunstone by mashing armour
No more full combo punishes for mixing people up with swords before your overhead/low is out

WHY WAS HE NERFED? HE WAS PERFECTLY FINE.

Yes, he was. In the previous patch.

The game is now revolving around the ground game without crutches like armour to help you. Which means you simply cannot have characters with 3+ options of safe, forward-moving, cancellable and impossible to backdash moves. I'm sorry.

But wait, there's more. How many times have you ever backdashed anything Kotal has done? 0, because B1 catches 60% of the cast's backdashes at nearly any + number. Those he doesn't catch are caught by B12.

So, we have established that in a footsified version of MKX, Kotal would have been a ridiculously dominant character with buttons that are safe, leads to mixups, cannot be backdashed, anti air and move him forward a significant amount.


What do we do now? How do variations like Sun god even work with B1 being high?

Play footsies. B1 being high doesn't mean it's useless. If someone is respecting your range, they are blocking and not ducking it. Things like D4 into run B1 command grab are still great.

F1 has been buffed. For those of you who didn't use it much, it was a different version of B1. What did it do over B1?

- Anti aired better
- Was VERY difficult to react to if staggered EVEN at -6.
- It moved further

How do you use it now?

For starters, it's now only -2. This staggerable normal is even less -. You use it to poke and complete it every now and then to punish people moving. Or armour. Sun choke is a fucking bitch to escape after a F1 stagger.

It also leaves you in a great distance for B1, D4, etc. Kotal still retains 6f pokes, so you can definitely harass a good number of the cast in the post-F1 game.

Mix it up with B1 and F2.

What about meter? Our + frames can now be armoured through!

Huge buff. Yes, they can armour through our shit. For 10% damage. Now, so can you.

This weakens both of your pressure. Who benefits from weakened pressure? Characters who can't take the heat, characters that can put their resources into better use, characters who can re-engage faster than the others, characters with the advantage in neutral.

Don't forget that, because of the reduction in damage from interrupting with armour, some characters would rather save their meter and take the pressure.

Or the opposite. Having them use their meter to trade with yours in the case of your EX projectiles ( which btw do more damage to them ) and then have no breaker for when you inevitably whiff punish something.

Pick one category that Kotal doesn't fit in.

You still catch backdashes with F1. You still full combo punish button mashers with F1B2

The new Meter metagame

You notice that now that we have less full combo reversals to be caught by and more time standing up, you have more meter. Less herpaderp EX rolls, spins and more of the sort to bait and use your breaker on. With the shift to the new reversal philosophy of non comboable moves being the ones who have armour, you don't have to worry about yolo or even the threat of the wakeup is some cases.

Which brings us to a very important change. Meter. You have more.

What were some great things Kotal had but just couldn't spare the meter for?

EX Sunstone/Macuahuitl
EX Sun offering
EX Sun choke
Pushblock

How often were you saving meter for that 1 time you thought "He might wake up or land a jump in into a 50-50."?

The meter that would have gone into those situations can now be used to armour more, regain health fast, get out of pressure and reset to neutral where by almost default it's in your favor, etc.

Just a short analysis. Let's hear your thoughts.
This is 100% of my thought's. The new f1 and F12 compensates b1 Nerf rly well imo. And increased pushback on f12 can open some nice things depending how far will the opponent go. Can't wait to hit the lab!!
 

loogie

Noob
Oh and I just thought of something big, we lost b1 on oki but now we can do b32 instead. We'll be +2 at least on block and on hit it has a really good knockdown. +2 on block is ofc great since we have 6f pokes to check the opponent.
yes, but there is pushback on block for your b32... not sure if a d1 is guaranteed to hit after that even if it is +2
 

Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
yes, but there is pushback on block for your b32... not sure if a d1 is guaranteed to hit after that even if it is +2
D4 has a nice range. EX Grab does as well.

And +2 is just the start. Shit can go up to +10.
 

loogie

Noob
@Qwark28
what's your take on WG losing armor on the ex overhead? how does that change his playstyle, and b1 being high for WG..

and how will the GM matchup play out now?
 
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KeyserSoze

Fabled Villain
My biggest issue with the changes to Kotal is the Obsidian totem nerf. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Blood God was widely considered to be the weakest of the three Kotal variations. Why introduce a change that solely normalizes the weakest of his three variations?

Edit: To be clear, I don't think it will make a huge impact. I suspect that the change is seen as jiving with the generic offense normalizations across the board. My objection is more a matter of principle, than practice. I don't like the idea of slightly weakening the most important special move of the weakest variation of a mid tier character.
 
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CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
My biggest issue with the changes to Kotal is the Obsidian totem nerf. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Blood God was widely considered to be the weakest of the three Kotal variations. Why introduce a change that solely normalizes the weakest of his three variations?
People said Sun God was weakest, not Blood God and the nerf was basically a "We can't have blood god do everything you need AND never die." He is one of the premier defensive characters and his defense prior was a bit strong for this version of the game. The obsidian totem is STILL super strong tho man, don't underestimate it.