General/Other - Kotal Kahn Kotal Kahn General Discussion

[Second Saint]

Against some characters, Sun/Blood would actually deal more chip damage than War God would because Sword toss doesn't always hit twice. This is still a potential 33% chip series of repeating frame traps that build a large amount of meter on block. And while it may not be ideal, nobody is going to be expecting b14~EX df3 the first time, but they'll have to respect it after. 20% damage isn't bad if you were about to spend that bar anyway. You could also go for an obvious tick throw attempt like d1, and then not tick throw.

There is a lot of potential gold here for everyone. I just wish there was some way that blood could get totems out while doing this. Does Crystal Totem effect chip damage? Does the drain/heal totem work if the damage you dealt is chip? I mean, I know it's bugged right now anyways, but does it work that way?

 

[RYX]

Against some characters, Sun/Blood would actually deal more chip damage than War God would because Sword toss doesn't always hit twice. This is still a potential 33% chip series of repeating frame traps that build a large amount of meter on block. And while it may not be ideal, nobody is going to be expecting b14~EX df3 the first time, but they'll have to respect it after. 20% damage isn't bad if you were about to spend that bar anyway. You could also go for an obvious tick throw attempt like d1, and then not tick throw.

There is a lot of potential gold here for everyone. I just wish there was some way that blood could get totems out while doing this. Does Crystal Totem effect chip damage? Does the drain/heal totem work if the damage you dealt is chip? I mean, I know it's bugged right now anyways, but does it work that way?

Crystal Totem affects chip damage and you have ways to get it out but none with an immediate reward of continuing your pressure into more chip outside of the corner

Blood Totem only works for on-hit damage, blocked/chip damage won't accumulate which I think is dumb

 

[SepticFir8]

what do you guys make of this? it's pretty strong vs most of the cast and there's two teleports that can't blow you up for it, Takeda's and Jason's

if you don't wanna watch the video, basically if you Sun Ray ASAP after a throw you can recover fast enough to block or duck a lot of wakeup attempts to blow you up, and if you popped up a totem to bait them instead you can hit them with big damage

I like that a lot. Do any of you guys have any more good pointers for getting the sun ray out?

I think ending combos with a B1, 2, 2, sun ray works fine just I have a hard time forsaking bigger damage for it.

 

[RYX]

I like that a lot. Do any of you guys have any more good pointers for getting the sun ray out?

I think ending combos with a B1, 2, 2, sun ray works fine just I have a hard time forsaking bigger damage for it.

honestly it's hard because sun ray's recovery is so abysmal, you have to either get creative with it or take risks to try and force a move

 

[SepticFir8]

honestly it's hard because sun ray's recovery is so abysmal, you have to either get creative with it or take risks to try and force a move

It feels to me like a move that I should be incorporating more, but as you said it's so risky. I'm practically begging to get hit with a full combo by throwing it at the wrong time.

Depending on the character I'm against, its not a bad move to use after a knockdown, but most characters will hit me with their wakeup attacks right afterwards. Such a shame, God Ray is a very cool move.

 

[AcMilan91]

114 DF1 dont work on Ferra torr?

 

[RYX]

114 DF1 dont work on Ferra torr?

nope

 

[Second Saint]

I really hope a patch comes one day that makes combos more consistent across body types. I picked up Shotgun Jacqui and found out it's a total crap shoot whether or not I can do all the same combos against different characters.

I also just found out the f34~db3 cancel does not work on Kotal Kahn in the corner. Great stuff :/

 

[regulas]

Looking at it, it looks like the bugs on blood totem are confined mostly to not draining meter (any time you deal multiple hits it doesn't drain but also doesn't fill... usually... upercuts sometimes fill it a ton...) but you do seem to get full healing always. Healing is consistently 20%. And since you can end a basic string with throw to make blood time out getting back maybe 7.4% healing 1/10th of a bar of meter and giving minimal meter back to them (in exchange for dealing 12% or so less dmg) may not be that terrible.

I mean you still suffer from a lack of ways to land anything but if you do since throw lets blood time out it would be a potential option.

 

[SepticFir8]

So...I fought a very good Johnny Cage player today, first to ten. He's on my friends list, and I play him on a daily basis.

War God Kotal vs. A-List Cage.

Kotal suffers REALLY bad against zoning. I mean, just awful. It really doesn't feel fair. I have to fight so hard to get in, and I can do fantastic up-close, but I'm wondering how truly viable Kotal will be in the long run if he's at a disadvantage from full-screen.

I'm probably just whining at this point, but I needed to get that out of my system.

 

[Pnut]

So...I fought a very good Johnny Cage player today, first to ten. He's on my friends list, and I play him on a daily basis.

War God Kotal vs. A-List Cage.

Kotal suffers REALLY bad against zoning. I mean, just awful. It really doesn't feel fair. I have to fight so hard to get in, and I can do fantastic up-close, but I'm wondering how truly viable Kotal will be in the long run if he's at a disadvantage from full-screen.

I'm probably just whining at this point, but I needed to get that out of my system.

The matchup is fine. D4 goes under the fireball.

 

[Jeremy KO]

Wouldn't it be better to do b122xEXdf3 for pressure since 114 can be ducked?

 

[Jeremy KO]

Woops never mind read the rest of the thread lol

 

[JLG]

Right now the big issue I see with Kotal Kahn is that there really is no point to using Blood God or Sun God in competition. If a tweak is made to the character, I hope it will encourage more people to choose one of those two variations rather than discourage them from choosing War God. For example, it's been mentioned here that God Ray's high recovery makes it very unsafe. Why not give it a reduction (I don't know what would be a good number) when used by a Sun God? In other words, the tweak would help Sun God , making it more appealing without giving War God a buff it might not even need.

I really think both NRS and the community would like to play any of the three variations and still feel like they have a viable chance at winning. A small tweak to specific variations could go a long way towards making that happen.

 

[RYX]

I don't know much it matters but if you EX your normal throw, you can run cancel 114 and it'll jail them on block. Seems pretty nifty.

Right now the big issue I see with Kotal Kahn is that there really is no point to using Blood God or Sun God in competition. If a tweak is made to the character, I hope it will encourage more people to choose one of those two variations rather than discourage them from choosing War God. For example, it's been mentioned here that God Ray's high recovery makes it very unsafe. Why not give it a reduction (I don't know what would be a good number) when used by a Sun God? In other words, the tweak would help Sun God , making it more appealing without giving War God a buff it might not even need.

I really think both NRS and the community would like to play any of the three variations and still feel like they have a viable chance at winning. A small tweak to specific variations could go a long way towards making that happen.

lol

 

[regulas]

From my time using Blood God I do have to say whenever I then try Sun God it feels like I'm just loosing damage for nothing. With crystal Regular throw does as much damage as level 3 command grab, and you get used to just having a totem out all the time eventually. While it can be evaded it is faster and there are still sort of tick set-ups like D3,throw that connects if the D3 hits (because it's not a true cancel it connects just after the hitstun ends) all while giving nearly double the advantage afterwords.

 

[RYX]

From my time using Blood God I do have to say whenever I then try Sun God it feels like I'm just loosing damage for nothing. With crystal Regular throw does as much damage as level 3 command grab, and you get used to just having a totem out all the time eventually. While it can be evaded it is faster and there are still sort of tick set-ups like D3,throw that connects if the D3 hits (because it's not a true cancel it connects just after the hitstun ends) all while giving nearly double the advantage afterwords.

i won't say no to generous buffs for my favorite variation

 

[KeyserSoze]

From my time using Blood God I do have to say whenever I then try Sun God it feels like I'm just loosing damage for nothing. With crystal Regular throw does as much damage as level 3 command grab, and you get used to just having a totem out all the time eventually. While it can be evaded it is faster and there are still sort of tick set-ups like D3,throw that connects if the D3 hits (because it's not a true cancel it connects just after the hitstun ends) all while giving nearly double the advantage afterwords.

Totally agree with this. There is just no good reason for a level 3 command grab to be doing 16%. All three levels should get a 2 or 3 percent damage boost.

 

[Shufflez]

Agree on the sun choke dmg aswell, it's pretty underwhelming for his main source of damage in that variation, haven't really spent much time in sun god so this is just at first glance.

Question for you guys, the more I think about it the more I'm asking myself why I ever use blood offering over sun ray especially in corner situations. Firstly we trade of a bit of damage to set it up in the first place by ending our combo in 114 blood offering or some such instead of something more damaging, about 3-6% dmg lost, then it costs us 10% health and in exchange we get an extra 7% - 10% dmg on our combos? the 50% dmg 1 bar combos were amusing at first with blood offering, but why when it would otherwise be 40% would you use it over sun ray? Is there something I'm missing out about blood offering? some trick that makes it worth it's price?

 

[Michael Bolton]

As it works now, unfortunately, Blood Offering isn't worthwhile. Perhaps it could be used to scare the opponent into blocking, but this seems more like wishful thinking than reality. Much better to end with damage, oki, or use God Ray to heal.

In terms of the Blood and Sun variations, as many have already said, they just don't have the necessary tools to be viable at high level. It's frustrating, for sure, but at least we have one variation that is. There are plenty of other characters on the roster who aren't as lucky.

 

[Hassun]

You really have to watch out with blood offering. It's extremely situational if you ask me. I basically only use it when I feel like I can get an f2 combo or an f3,4,EX df3 combo. Since it powers up the first 3 hits (or blocked hits) you kind of want those 3 attacks to be powerful to get the most out of it.

I'd love to know more good blood offering combos though. Especially ones that have a high chance of succeeding.

 

[LeeVanDam]

From my time using Blood God I do have to say whenever I then try Sun God it feels like I'm just loosing damage for nothing. With crystal Regular throw does as much damage as level 3 command grab, and you get used to just having a totem out all the time eventually. While it can be evaded it is faster and there are still sort of tick set-ups like D3,throw that connects if the D3 hits (because it's not a true cancel it connects just after the hitstun ends) all while giving nearly double the advantage afterwords.

I can understand where you're coming from, but I think this is a really difficult comparison because right now we're still in very early stages of the game. Like you said, the normal throw even when powered up by Crystal Totem can still be throw-escaped, and it will never have a situation where it can benefit from armor to guarantee the throw in a tick throw set up when someone is button happy. This becomes so important late game because they bring up completely different scenarios. Blood God opponents are still thinking,"Okay, I can just hold block and watch for the throw to break it." Sun God opponents are thinking,"Not only do I have to block, but I have to avoid the choke altogether. Because they have to physically move to escape the Sun God Choke, they will put themselves in more dangerous situations than just turtling up and watching for throw start up to escape.

Also, the Sun God Choke is an easier tool for opening up your opponent. After d+4 on hit, you can use b+1 to continue pressure... or you could dash choke if they're scared of b+1/f+2/f+1 or whatever long range strike you're using and they are taking damage along with an hard knockdown. Dashing up with Blood God is going to always prepare someone to throw escape, because there isn't anything else to worry about outside of crouch blocking.

I would love the damage to be higher, but what I'd like even more is if the EX Sun God Choke just automatically put you at Sun God level 3. I don't think that's unfair at the cost of a bar. Then you'd have your 16% damage along with armor to give it value versus the regular Sun God Choke. It'd still take an additional bar to heal, and technically you could refund yourself almost half of the meter cost if you needed another armor move or other utility. It only absorbs one hit right now, so that extra utility doesn't seem overpowered with the damage/safety other EX moves in the game give characters access to.

 

[RYX]

I would love the damage to be higher, but what I'd like even more is if the EX Sun God Choke just automatically put you at Sun God level 3. I don't think that's unfair at the cost of a bar. Then you'd have your 16% damage along with armor to give it value versus the regular Sun God Choke. It'd still take an additional bar to heal, and technically you could refund yourself almost half of the meter cost if you needed another armor move or other utility. It only absorbs one hit right now, so that extra utility doesn't seem overpowered with the damage/safety other EX moves in the game give characters access to.

This is probably the most reasonable quality of life improvement he could get. If he refunds it and resets, he has to spend another bar (which outside of a combo can be a risk/reward situation) to get it back up to that level and he's spending 3 bars if he wants to heal twice for only 24%

I think it'd be cool if the levels he kept in Sun God affected other factors of his specials as well, but I'm not sure what I'd change that'd push him over the line.

 

[Crayraven]

From my time using Blood God I do have to say whenever I then try Sun God it feels like I'm just loosing damage for nothing. With crystal Regular throw does as much damage as level 3 command grab, and you get used to just having a totem out all the time eventually. While it can be evaded it is faster and there are still sort of tick set-ups like D3,throw that connects if the D3 hits (because it's not a true cancel it connects just after the hitstun ends) all while giving nearly double the advantage afterwords.

This is what I said awhile ago, blood god with crystal totem does more damage with a throw than a level 3 sun choke. However, I think its worth considering that sun choke can be converted to a heal with ex soul scourge.

 

[Hassun]

@Crayraven
To be honest I never use scourge to heal. I have enough difficulty gaining metre as it is so I am not going to be spending a bar on a pretty mediocre heal.
I sometimes use it to gain metre but that's pretty rare as well. Let's be real here, sun choke damage at level 1 and 2 is crap. I usually do my best to get it to level 3 ASAP and keep it there.