General/Other - Kotal Kahn Kotal Kahn buff idea

[KeyserSoze]

That was kind of my point without explaining it. This game is about mixups and kotal's only mixup in sun god is super unsafe which is why i think he's bad. He can beat people but its extremely difficult. There's no matchup I would choose Sun God over War God.

But, his lack of mix-ups doesn't make him bad, IMO, just not mix-up oriented.

Also, War God being better than Sun God in every conceivable match-up doesn't mean that Sun God isn't also viable. It just means that War God is much better . . . which he is.

 

[KeyserSoze]

Exactly, its just another example of "why should i take this variation when the other one does everything better?".

Because not everyone chooses which character/variation to play based solely on who is the most competitively viable. I agree wholeheartedly that there is no match-up (that I know of) in which I would suggest Blood God or Sun God is more equipped to deal with the opponent than War God is. And yet, I still choose to exclusively main Sun God and Blood god.

 

[KeyserSoze]

But the thing is what else should SG be doing? 114 ~ AA grab the whole time?

IMO, he should be pressuring with safe strings like 114 and B32 and occasionally throwing out F2s to condition the opponent to block. He should also mix that with a steady dose of command grabs. He should also use armored command grabs to blow up pressure.

F2 may be safe for many characters but others can blow u op for it like Jax, cassie or raiden. b32 , f1b2. b122 all of these would be great if they weren't unsafe as fuck. A good Opponent won't respect it but blow u up for trying. All he get his f1 and b1,. No 50/50, No real armor cuz Alot of moves are throw immune, Useless parry unless Exed.

10f normals to punish doesn't help neither

F2 can only be meaningfully punished by a handful of characters and you simply have to be mindful of which characters can blow it up and which ones can not. So far, in my experience, F2 is not blown up very much at all. Of course, that will get worse with time, but only against a handful of opponents.

B32 is completely safe on block and an invaluable pressure tool.

I didn't mention B122 because it's unsafe. I mentioned F2, 114, B32, F1B2. F2 is usually safe and 114 and B32 are always safe. I shouldn't have mentioned F1B2 because it's completely unsafe. (I have a bad habit of throwing that out far too often)

The pressure tools I use the most are: 114, 212, B32 (all three are completely safe - 212 can be interrupted with armor), and F34xxEx-Sunstone (as a nice, gimmicky frame-trap on occassion).

 

[Pnut]

The problem with B32 is that it doesn't lead to anything. You get in, but your minus, I don't understand how you are going to use it as a pressure tool when anyone with an 8 frame move or lower can just beat out anything you do but armor after.

 

[Predannok]

B32 is completely safe on block and an invaluable pressure tool

My bad i was thinking of f34

 

[Predannok]

F34xxEx-Sunstone

not a real frametrap

 

[KeyserSoze]

The problem with B32 is that it doesn't lead to anything. You get in, but your minus, I don't understand how you are going to use it as a pressure tool when anyone with an 8 frame move or lower can just beat out anything you do but armor after.

It's mainly a safe way to get in. Also, something I have been doing is following up B32 on block with an armored command grab to blow up reversals. Seems to catch people quite a bit.

 

[KeyserSoze]

not a real frametrap

true, but it works a lot. lol

 

[Qwark28]

For starters b14 tick throw stinks. It can be option select armored/jump and is so negative that it can be punished by most armored moves or instant njp. His footsies are good but even more unsafe here then they are in wargod and there's no real mixup on them to keep your opponent guessing. B1 tickthrow is good but that's about it. He has a whatever wakeup in the fact that a lot of moves in this game are throw immune so you get blown up for making the right read.

The crux of the problem is that he's lacking mixups in a mixup heavy game. There's a reason why the best grappler in this game is Erron Black ... because he has ways to make you respect his 50/50 while also having a CG. They either need to give him more strings that you can tick throw off of or he needs some of those strings to be safe to fix his issues. You can't just buff Sun Choke and expect it to make a huge difference.

.

 

[Qwark28]

For starters b14 tick throw stinks. It can be option select armored/jump and is so negative that it can be punished by most armored moves or instant njp. His footsies are good but even more unsafe here then they are in wargod and there's no real mixup on them to keep your opponent guessing. B1 tickthrow is good but that's about it. He has a whatever wakeup in the fact that a lot of moves in this game are throw immune so you get blown up for making the right read.

The crux of the problem is that he's lacking mixups in a mixup heavy game. There's a reason why the best grappler in this game is Erron Black ... because he has ways to make you respect his 50/50 while also having a CG. They either need to give him more strings that you can tick throw off of or he needs some of those strings to be safe to fix his issues. You can't just buff Sun Choke and expect it to make a huge difference.

You literally picked the worst thing to ever tick throw of off. B14 and B122 string series aren't that great in any variation and, since you mention OS, every single war god "mixup" off of b122 I have been getting consistently OSed out of from the players I play, most notably @Metzos so IDK how you apply OS to one variation but not the other. B122 and War god in general from what I've seen is gimmick central with population 1. So the point is that other variations don't even have anything different in regards to that string, maybe if they don't have meter which in this game is pretty much never.

His footsies are nearly identical to war god's, mixup is between command grab or 40%+ combo. Every time someone hit confirms their blocked poke and stops you can command grab, ever time your pokes hit you can command grab, every time D4 hits you threaten a command grab. These are a small amount of the things you can do to make people press buttons. People who don't block d4 get pressured all day, people who are cautious and always block your pokes now have another mixup to worry about

I have spent 90% of my time with Sun god and played a multitude of matchups, there's only really 4 matchups I would pick war god for. In all those matchups, which is, give or take, ~60% of the cast, I haven't encountered any characters who can pressure you on wakeup because of their throw immune strings. Regardless, it's rare that you should be waking up.

B1
D1
D4
1

These are all the best things to do the tick throw off of.

Mixup = Press buttons like a monkey or lose 19% with every single touch with the occasional 47% BnB.

not a real frametrap

F34 is safe against a majority of the cast and can be hit confirmed into EX Sunstone, regardless it's a decent option because even if it has gaps the opponent need to be immediately pressing buttons or armour, which you can bait. You can also do F3 sunstone once that has been established.

This isn't directed towards you specifically but there needs to be better research, I keep seeing not often but every now and then that people will punish F2 supposedly.

First, only about 7 characters can punish it. Only 3 of those can do so easily with reversals, only one of which grants a combo.

Second, the remaining characters, due to the very short blockstun, MUST be expecting F2. If you do a F2 that they are not 100% concentrating on punishing, which btw gives you pretty much free pressure, then they will not punish it. Out of all the select few that can, it's Subzero who is able to punish with some degree of consistency with S1 and even he has to practice it for a long time and be expecting it.

TLDR; F2 isn't easy to punish, if it's punished then it's your fault as a player for not realising they're already respecting you too much. Enough with the uneducated downplaying.

 

[Pnut]

You literally picked the worst thing to ever tick throw of off. B14 and B122 string series aren't that great in any variation and, since you mention OS, every single war god "mixup" off of b122 I have been getting consistently OSed out of from the players I play, most notably @Metzos so IDK how you apply OS to one variation but not the other. B122 and War god in general from what I've seen is gimmick central with population 1. So the point is that other variations don't even have anything different in regards to that string, maybe if they don't have meter which in this game is pretty much never.

His footsies are nearly identical to war god's, mixup is between command grab or 40%+ combo. Every time someone hit confirms their blocked poke and stops you can command grab, ever time your pokes hit you can command grab, every time D4 hits you threaten a command grab. These are a small amount of the things you can do to make people press buttons. People who don't block d4 get pressured all day, people who are cautious and always block your pokes now have another mixup to worry about

I have spent 90% of my time with Sun god and played a multitude of matchups, there's only really 4 matchups I would pick war god for. In all those matchups, which is, give or take, ~60% of the cast, I haven't encountered any characters who can pressure you on wakeup because of their throw immune strings. Regardless, it's rare that you should be waking up.

B1
D1
D4
1

These are all the best things to do the tick throw off of.

Mixup = Press buttons like a monkey or lose 19% with every single touch with the occasional 47% BnB.



F34 is safe against a majority of the cast and can be hit confirmed into EX Sunstone, regardless it's a decent option because even if it has gaps the opponent need to be immediately pressing buttons or armour, which you can bait. You can also do F3 sunstone once that has been established.

This isn't directed towards you specifically but there needs to be better research, I keep seeing not often but every now and then that people will punish F2 supposedly.

First, only about 7 characters can punish it. Only 3 of those can do so easily with reversals, only one of which grants a combo.

Second, the remaining characters, due to the very short blockstun, MUST be expecting F2. If you do a F2 that they are not 100% concentrating on punishing, which btw gives you pretty much free pressure, then they will not punish it. Out of all the select few that can, it's Subzero who is able to punish with some degree of consistency with S1 and even he has to practice it for a long time and be expecting it.

TLDR; F2 isn't easy to punish, if it's punished then it's your fault as a player for not realising they're already respecting you too much. Enough with the uneducated downplaying.

You can spout all of this like you did with Joker in Injustice, but it doesn't change anything. I play some of the best players in the world and they all tell me Sun God stinks and to just stick with War God. The point is until I see someone doing something different, then I'll stick with my opinion.

 

[Qwark28]

You can spout all of this like you did with Joker in Injustice, but it doesn't change anything. I play some of the best players in the world and they all tell me Sun God stinks and to just stick with War God. The point is until I see someone doing something different, then I'll stick with my opinion.

Then you shouldn't have bothered replying anyway if your answer to logical arguments is "so and so told me this".

You know there's a problem when you trust the word of higher level players who haven't even touched or played Sun god substantially.

 

[ShaolinGunFu]

Parry should work the way smokes does in mk9, also kotal should have the rest of smokes moveset including a skin

 

[KeyserSoze]

Parry should work the way smokes does in mk9, also kotal should have the rest of smokes moveset including a skin

LOL, you smoke fanboys crack me up.

 

[Pnut]

Then you shouldn't have bothered replying anyway if your answer to logical arguments is "so and so told me this".

You know there's a problem when you trust the word of higher level players who haven't even touched or played Sun god substantially.

I play Sun God substantially and I get RAPED. I go even with Ducky with War God and get massacred when I go Sun God. Super fucking telling.

 

[Qwark28]

I play Sun God substantially and I get RAPED. I go even with Ducky with War God and get massacred when I go Sun God. Super fucking telling.

Have you considered the event that that matchup could be bad instead of Sun god actually sucking? Have you played against a large chunk of the cast with 100% certainty that there is no skill level difference?

 

[Pnut]

Have you considered the event that that matchup could be bad instead of Sun god actually sucking? Have you played against a large chunk of the cast with 100% certainty that there is no skill level difference?

Yeah. Have you considered you are outplaying everyone you play? I watched your local, it's clear you are as you are the only one capable of doing combos consistently.

 

[KingKhrystopher]

What Kotal needs is not armour.

Why is it that noone wants to give their characters time to evolve and a million users keep constantly asking for buffs?

Bruh... There are some things you can't overlook. Like Kenshi. He was horrible, and there is no one who could say he wasn't. He needed help. So what you're saying is just wait until, what, everyone has adjusted into their characters, then just buff and nerf the hell out of them at once? I just can't see it.
Most of the tech for characters, the major parts, at least, probably has been found. We don't need another year to see whether or not a character is good or not. There will possibly be no really groundbreaking tech that will switch a character from bad to good.

 

[Qwark28]

Yeah. Have you considered you are outplaying everyone you play? I watched your local, it's clear you are as you are the only one capable of doing combos consistently.

The local I specifically mentioned was a casual session-turned-small-tournament half our scene of which was absent or late and the rest screwing around with second and tertaries? Yeah, no surprise.

 

[Belial]

Quark waging a war on unbelievers, lol

War God vs Sun God

1) WG can cancel d4 into any special he wants. on hit d4~df+2 is a true block string, builds meter, chips for 6% total great poke. They can interrupt on block, then you can do a mixup (RR gets better b/c there is a chance to counterhit) or even armor with db1 for 32%
What can SG do with d4? On hit a very unlikely mixup between f1 (if they atack) dash f2 (if they jump or BD) , dash db+2 if they just do nothing. will not work. totally. (by the way these options are open to war god as well)
On block? well you can risk at least 30% to deal maybe 19% ... if you get lucky. Do you really throw out moves hoping it gets blocked?

2) WG can footsie with b1 and hitconfirm into 36% combo (b14exsword), sun god can do almost the same (b12~exairgrab) except if you fail WG has options in most machups. SG will get punished hard.

3) WG can deal damage midscreen off f34. WG can combo in the corner off f34. METERLESS. SG has to burn meter (and SG has less meter that WG) One of the best wakeup options gone.

4) WG can anti air SG cannot. nuff said

5) WG has crazy reach on sword atacks like df2 and db1. You can duck+punish projectiles or beat jumps with it from half screen away etc. It greatly helps in almost every MU. SG has. nothing WG doesnt.

6) Ex OSS is just so good. It doesnt even take two hits for this move to get awesome. In fact its awesome from the first round till the last. Did I mention it deals 32%? You can do more if you're gooood. ex OSS can antiair while grabbing a pizza. He can inspire fear in hearts of men by punishing their puny attemps to throw projectiles at you from half screen away. You can interrupt strings with it, you can beat jumps with it, you can atack with it and defend with it. Is there anything ex OSS cannot do, you will ask. HOLY SHIT NO THERE IS NO SUCH THING THIS MOVE IS GODLIKE. Unlike command grab choke.

7) There are lots of other fun specials WG has and SG doesnt but who needs them when you have EX OSS, right?

Still suffering from zoners unable to counter projectile spam?
Still listening to Quark propaganda but aint getting results?
Still want to be a pro?
Search no further! Throw away your stinky yellow Kotal Kahn and call now to order all new shiny blue steel colored War God and recieve a free overhead sword strike than can pwn noobs into oblivion.

 

[KeyserSoze]

See, I don't think anyone would argue with the unavoidable reality that War God >>>> Sun God/Blood god. But, that fact in no logical way prohibits Sun God from being viable. Just because War God is Kotal's best variation by a country mile, doesn't mean that Sun God and Blood God aren't viable characters in the right hands.

 

[Qwark28]

See, I don't think anyone would argue with the unavoidable reality that War God >>>> Sun God/Blood god. But, that fact in no logical way prohibits Sun God from being viable. Just because War God is Kotal's best variation by a country mile, doesn't mean that Sun God and Blood God aren't viable characters in the right hands.

Downplay squad doesn't seem to get that.

 

[Qwark28]

Quark waging a war on unbelievers, lol

War God vs Sun God

1) WG can cancel d4 into any special he wants. on hit d4~df+2 is a true block string, builds meter, chips for 6% total great poke. They can interrupt on block, then you can do a mixup (RR gets better b/c there is a chance to counterhit) or even armor with db1 for 32%
What can SG do with d4? On hit a very unlikely mixup between f1 (if they atack) dash f2 (if they jump or BD) , dash db+2 if they just do nothing. will not work. totally. (by the way these options are open to war god as well)
On block? well you can risk at least 30% to deal maybe 19% ... if you get lucky. Do you really throw out moves hoping it gets blocked?

2) WG can footsie with b1 and hitconfirm into 36% combo (b14exsword), sun god can do almost the same (b12~exairgrab) except if you fail WG has options in most machups. SG will get punished hard.

3) WG can deal damage midscreen off f34. WG can combo in the corner off f34. METERLESS. SG has to burn meter (and SG has less meter that WG) One of the best wakeup options gone.

4) WG can anti air SG cannot. nuff said

5) WG has crazy reach on sword atacks like df2 and db1. You can duck+punish projectiles or beat jumps with it from half screen away etc. It greatly helps in almost every MU. SG has. nothing WG doesnt.

6) Ex OSS is just so good. It doesnt even take two hits for this move to get awesome. In fact its awesome from the first round till the last. Did I mention it deals 32%? You can do more if you're gooood. ex OSS can antiair while grabbing a pizza. He can inspire fear in hearts of men by punishing their puny attemps to throw projectiles at you from half screen away. You can interrupt strings with it, you can beat jumps with it, you can atack with it and defend with it. Is there anything ex OSS cannot do, you will ask. HOLY SHIT NO THERE IS NO SUCH THING THIS MOVE IS GODLIKE. Unlike command grab choke.

7) There are lots of other fun specials WG has and SG doesnt but who needs them when you have EX OSS, right?

Still suffering from zoners unable to counter projectile spam?
Still listening to Quark propaganda but aint getting results?
Still want to be a pro?
Search no further! Throw away your stinky yellow Kotal Kahn and call now to order all new shiny blue steel colored War God and recieve a free overhead sword strike than can pwn noobs into oblivion.

So many things wrong with this post, starting with the fact that i didnt even compare the variations, merely sun god viability.

this downplay projection of yours is all over the place and about variations youre clueless about.

 

[GAV]

...

or what

...or the adults will go away and you'll be left with a forum filled with childish bickering.

 

[Belial]

So many things wrong with this post, starting with the fact that i didnt even compare the variations, merely sun god viability.

this downplay projection of yours is all over the place and about variations youre clueless about.

Im not clueless I play a lot of SG and BG myself but then I switch to WG and the difference is quite obvious