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General/Other - Kotal Kahn Kotal Kahn buff idea

Jeffrey Wolf

YouTube: Jeffrey B Wolf
@Pnut, a character that can place top 8 at a major is not bottom 5, unless you want to say that NRS has created one of the most balanced fighting games of our time. Heck, maybe they have.

And yes, a teleport in SG and BG would be amazingly redonkulous, lol.
 

dark55

Noob
Wargod doesnt need any buffs, if your getting armored trough your strings it means u need start baiting armor.
The only thing they should 'normalise' is his sunlight, wich doesnt work anymore as it used to work prepatch with the corner setup.
hahaha all of kotals variations need buffs, Even war god. Its not fun having unsafe mix ups. and there is no baiting armor bc all the strings u do that lead up to any type of damage or just strings period are full combo punishable lol.
 

dark55

Noob
@Pnut, a character that can place top 8 at a major is not bottom 5, unless you want to say that NRS has created one of the most balanced fighting games of our time. Heck, maybe they have.

And yes, a teleport in SG and BG would be amazingly redonkulous, lol.
bro the game was new..still is new and people just don't know that kotal is so punishable on everything. Notice eveytime Alucard did a db 1 or db 3 no one did anything about it hahaha. They didn't even try to punish it. Not to mention alucard was playing footsies and the MKX community didn't know what to do about someone doing something dumb like footsies.
 

Evil Canadian

G O K U
Elder God
Kotal is a street fighter character in an NRS game. He's too honest of a character.
That is exactly why I play him(he's basically a SF footsies character). I started with Tonfa tanya for a bit the other day and its like playing on easy mode compared to Kotal.

Anyway scientific best buff is this:
Alternate custome for Kotal where he has a baseball player uniform, and his swordstick is turned into a baseball bat.
 

Jeffrey Wolf

YouTube: Jeffrey B Wolf
@dark55, I'd agree with you about Combobreaker--no one knew the match ups yet. But Combobreaker is long past, and Kotal is still placing well at locals (top 3) and majors (top 32/16). I'm not saying he's top tier, but you can't have that much success (e.g. Alucard, Pnut, Mr. Aquaman, Wade, iLuusions, me) with a trash tier character. War God is everywhere, but Reptile? Goro? No, because those are bottom 5 characters.
 

dark55

Noob
@dark55, I'd agree with you about Combobreaker--no one knew the match ups yet. But Combobreaker is long past, and Kotal is still placing well at locals (top 3) and majors (top 32/16). I'm not saying he's top tier, but you can't have that much success (e.g. Alucard, Pnut, Mr. Aquaman, Wade, iLuusions, me) with a trash tier character. War God is everywhere, but Reptile? Goro? No, because those are bottom 5 characters.
yes u can. like pig said at CEO. Just because you are bottom 5 doesnt mean you arent viable. Someone has to be down there and kotal is. Kotal isn't trash but he does suck. You have top players ie aquaman and alucard beasting on people bc they are superb fighting game players but also taking advantage of the sole fact that no one knows kotals shit. Like P-nut said let the games life increase a bit and you will see that he isn't good as well. also u don't see kotal everywhere lol. You are just going out looking for him.
 

Pnut

Mouth of the Illuminati
@Pnut, a character that can place top 8 at a major is not bottom 5, unless you want to say that NRS has created one of the most balanced fighting games of our time. Heck, maybe they have.

And yes, a teleport in SG and BG would be amazingly redonkulous, lol.
Alucard placed with ares in injustice which was commonly regarded as the worst character in the game. Chris g won multiple majors with green arrow ... another bottom 5 character. Mike Ross placed top 4 in evo with Honda.

Your argument is terrible and makes no sense. Just because people can do well doesn't mean the character isn't bad. Chris g continuously placed top 16 though out the life of injustice. Mr Aquaman was even getting top 16 with ares. There's plenty of evidence in fgc history to support that bad characters can compete, it doesn't mean that they don't need help though. If you don't think any of the characters above needed help then I'm sorry you don't understand fighting games.
 

just_2swift

MK1 is the best MK period.
That is exactly why I play him(he's basically a SF footsies character). I started with Tonfa tanya for a bit the other day and its like playing on easy mode compared to Kotal.

Anyway scientific best buff is this:
Alternate custome for Kotal where he has a baseball player uniform, and his swordstick is turned into a baseball bat.
Lol the DH for the Ossh tekk Warriors and the last hit of MB db2 should be a brutality where he hits your head off for a home run
 

Jeffrey Wolf

YouTube: Jeffrey B Wolf
@dark55, if you're using Pig's definition, then bottom 5 doesn't mean what it normally does. In most fighting games, being the lowest tier would indicate that the character is unviable at a competitive level, except as perhaps a counterpick (e.g. Infiltration's Hakan in SF4). If you're saying that bottom 5 can still compete, then what is the point of that grouping? Are you saying that the other 23 characters on the roster have better options? Also, are you saying that all characters in the bottom 5 are equal to each other?

@Pnut, I'm not saying that Kotal is viable because one player has had success with him, like Xian with Gen, or Scamby recently with team Resident Evil in UMvC 3. I'm saying he's viable because in multiple locals he's winning/placing top 3 and in majors he's getting top 32/16. Of course, any singular, skilled FG player can have success with a bad character, but when you see this many instances, the tools of the character are assisting the player, at least to some degree. Now, as I mentioned above to Dark, if your argument is that bottom 5 characters in MKX can still compete at a high level, unlike most fighting games, then fine. Though, as I also say, that would seem to invalidate the point of calling them bottom 5.

To help with this, as I'm not looking to flame anyone, just debate, why don't we list our bottom/hard to win with picks. For me, I'd say Goro and Jacqui. Previously, I'd also include Reptile, but with his recent buffs, he's looking much better. Same with Kitana and Kenshi, to an even greater degree. Characters like Ferra/Tor, Kano, Takeda, Liu Kang, and Mileena don't win for free, but they're definitely not bad. Predator isn't that great, but it's too early to say for sure. So, all in all, with the recent patch, I'd say most characters in MKX can compete, which is pretty cool.

And, lastly, for anyone saying that Kotal has gaps in his strings, yes, we know, and so do players who are taking this game seriously. Does this weaken Kotal? Absolutely. It means you can't just go ham. However, having the option to go low/overhead at any point is still very useful and many characters can only punish if they react in time and have meter on deck to do so. Does it suck to play against characters like Jax and Reptile, who can punish you every time they block a low/overhead sword? Of course. That's why you play differently against those characters, use a different variation, or even counterpick. Almost all top level players right now can play multiple characters. That's what it means to be the best. If you're thinking you can just play Kotal and be top of the pack, well, that's highly doubtful.
 

Pnut

Mouth of the Illuminati
@dark55, if you're using Pig's definition, then bottom 5 doesn't mean what it normally does. In most fighting games, being the lowest tier would indicate that the character is unviable at a competitive level, except as perhaps a counterpick (e.g. Infiltration's Hakan in SF4). If you're saying that bottom 5 can still compete, then what is the point of that grouping? Are you saying that the other 23 characters on the roster have better options? Also, are you saying that all characters in the bottom 5 are equal to each other?

@Pnut, I'm not saying that Kotal is viable because one player has had success with him, like Xian with Gen, or Scamby recently with team Resident Evil in UMvC 3. I'm saying he's viable because in multiple locals he's winning/placing top 3 and in majors he's getting top 32/16. Of course, any singular, skilled FG player can have success with a bad character, but when you see this many instances, the tools of the character are assisting the player, at least to some degree. Now, as I mentioned above to Dark, if your argument is that bottom 5 characters in MKX can still compete at a high level, unlike most fighting games, then fine. Though, as I also say, that would seem to invalidate the point of calling them bottom 5.

To help with this, as I'm not looking to flame anyone, just debate, why don't we list our bottom/hard to win with picks. For me, I'd say Goro and Jacqui. Previously, I'd also include Reptile, but with his recent buffs, he's looking much better. Same with Kitana and Kenshi, to an even greater degree. Characters like Ferra/Tor, Kano, Takeda, Liu Kang, and Mileena don't win for free, but they're definitely not bad. Predator isn't that great, but it's too early to say for sure. So, all in all, with the recent patch, I'd say most characters in MKX can compete, which is pretty cool.

And, lastly, for anyone saying that Kotal has gaps in his strings, yes, we know, and so do players who are taking this game seriously. Does this weaken Kotal? Absolutely. It means you can't just go ham. However, having the option to go low/overhead at any point is still very useful and many characters can only punish if they react in time and have meter on deck to do so. Does it suck to play against characters like Jax and Reptile, who can punish you every time they block a low/overhead sword? Of course. That's why you play differently against those characters, use a different variation, or even counterpick. Almost all top level players right now can play multiple characters. That's what it means to be the best. If you're thinking you can just play Kotal and be top of the pack, well, that's highly doubtful.
The problem is though is that there are no reads. The mixups are negated with armor and backdash. Mkx suffers from a flawed system where you can hold block and mash out a reversal for armor. Or if you know the matchup enough you can backdash the oh and low option on b122/b12xxlows word or f1b2xxoh/low. It fucking sucks that I can't even blow up these options because my moves are so punishable anyway. What am I supposed to do about Kung Lao or Jax who can just hold block and mash out a move that even blows up my attempt to blow them up? Kotal is worse than people think in terms of the game ... he probably doesn't win any matchups and loses to almost half the cast. If you want to make the argument that hes a balanced character because of this, then nerf the top tier to a similar matchup chart and buff those around him. It's super frustrating and insulting when people call me a downplayer when the suggestions they give me to improve were fazed out in may. I'm a character loyalist and I love kotal as a character, but I don't like entering a local every week playing only disadvantage matchups. Go watch my matches and tell me how to get around Quans zoning and let me know how "raping him on knockdown" goes when he guesses right and does 40% combo. The fact of the matter is kotal is a high risk low reward character and just a worse version of most of the top tiers.
 

Jeffrey Wolf

YouTube: Jeffrey B Wolf
Unless you're playing a top tier character, in a game where the top tiers are incredibly well rounded, being a character loyalist in any fighting game is very hard these days, especially if you want to compete at a high level. Just because you main a particular character, doesn't mean that should be the only character you play.

As for mashing reversals while blocking, that system isn't exclusive to MKX. The same thing existed in SF4, and people learned their way around it. Does it feel scrubby? Of course, but by knowing what armored moves an opponent might use, you can bait, punish, and/or just block them, the last of which still depletes the opponent's meter and often leaves you at advantage. Enhanced Overhead Sword doesn't work as a counter to an opponent's armored move, sure, but other Enhanced moves, like Kotal's Saw, Sweep, or Shake do. As for backdashing, mix it up with Shake, Sword Throw, and God Ray. These aren't guaranteed punishes by any means, but by changing your patterns, it will force the opponent to do the same.

Does Kotal have tough matchups? Absolutely. Zoners like Quan, Ermac, and Kitana are a huge pain. But most characters, except perhaps the very top, have bad matchups. You either grind them (in this case, learning how to painstakingly make your way in) and eventually overcome the disparity, like the examples you provided earlier, or you also play a pocket character that offsets your main's weakness. As for saying that Kotal has no good matchups. Well, that's a rather extreme statement and probably why people are saying you're a downplayer. Again, if that was true, you wouldn't see Kotal doing as well as he is. We're not all that godlike. And, to the argument that Kotal is secretly bottom 5, but no one knows, doubtful, as most serious players do know the gaps, but in the heat of the moment, it can be tough to exploit. Plus, we don't have to do the strings with gaps. Does it suck to give up F1, B2? Totally, as it was the obvious space closer we all used when the game first dropped, but it's far from the only string Kotal has.

At the end of the day, what's the point in complaining about these things? Is the hope that NRS will give Kotal another round of buffs? If so, more power to you. Once that's happened though, or not, probably with Tremor's release, if you're a true character loyalist, I hope we can then focus on solutions.

Oh, and before anyone asks how to focus on solutions, that's what we're trying to do in the Kotal match video thread. @Pnut, if you want, add your problem matches, so we can all look at them and try our best to level up.
 

Pnut

Mouth of the Illuminati
Unless you're playing a top tier character, in a game where the top tiers are incredibly well rounded, being a character loyalist in any fighting game is very hard these days, especially if you want to compete at a high level. Just because you main a particular character, doesn't mean that should be the only character you play.

As for mashing reversals while blocking, that system isn't exclusive to MKX. The same thing existed in SF4, and people learned their way around it. Does it feel scrubby? Of course, but by knowing what armored moves an opponent might use, you can bait, punish, and/or just block them, the last of which still depletes the opponent's meter and often leaves you at advantage. Enhanced Overhead Sword doesn't work as a counter to an opponent's armored move, sure, but other Enhanced moves, like Kotal's Saw, Sweep, or Shake do. As for backdashing, mix it up with Shake, Sword Throw, and God Ray. These aren't guaranteed punishes by any means, but by changing your patterns, it will force the opponent to do the same.

Does Kotal have tough matchups? Absolutely. Zoners like Quan, Ermac, and Kitana are a huge pain. But most characters, except perhaps the very top, have bad matchups. You either grind them (in this case, learning how to painstakingly make your way in) and eventually overcome the disparity, like the examples you provided earlier, or you also play a pocket character that offsets your main's weakness. As for saying that Kotal has no good matchups. Well, that's a rather extreme statement and probably why people are saying you're a downplayer. Again, if that was true, you wouldn't see Kotal doing as well as he is. We're not all that godlike. And, to the argument that Kotal is secretly bottom 5, but no one knows, doubtful, as most serious players do know the gaps, but in the heat of the moment, it can be tough to exploit. Plus, we don't have to do the strings with gaps. Does it suck to give up F1, B2? Totally, as it was the obvious space closer we all used when the game first dropped, but it's far from the only string Kotal has.

At the end of the day, what's the point in complaining about these things? Is the hope that NRS will give Kotal another round of buffs? If so, more power to you. Once that's happened though, or not, probably with Tremor's release, if you're a true character loyalist, I hope we can then focus on solutions.

Oh, and before anyone asks how to focus on solutions, that's what we're trying to do in the Kotal match video thread. @Pnut, if you want, add your problem matches, so we can all look at them and try our best to level up.
What matches do you think he wins. The only possibility in my mind is Goro but I'll admit I know nothing about him so I gave it an even score. I did a matchup chart yesterday on paper and I put down that kotal wins 0 matchups, goes even with 17 and loses 10. With 4 of those being 3-7. It's possible that some of these could get better or worse but that's how I feel right now.
 

Jeffrey Wolf

YouTube: Jeffrey B Wolf
@Pnut, I'd be interested to see your match up chart, if you don't mind sharing, in this thread or perhaps another. I also understand what you mean now about no good match ups: you mean that he's even or worse on most of them. Starting at the bottom, I'd say his worse match ups are primarily the zoners:

Quan, Kitana, Kenshi and Ermac

I'd also maybe put Bone Shaper Shinnok in this category, but I need more matches against him. Same with the newly patched Tanya. Lastly, maybe Inferno Scorpion, but I only ever get to fight against him online, lol.

And then the characters that can easily punish his sword attacks: Jax and Reptile

So, in total, about 6-9 bad match ups.

While his good match ups are:

Johnny, Mileena, Ferra/Torr, Takeda, Liu, Goro, Jason, Predator, and Jacqui (her gunshots and rockets are a pain, but other than that, she lacks options)

I say these 9, not because Kotal is necessarily built to defeat any of them, but because none of their tools are as good as his, overall. Also, don't think I'm saying these are 8-2s or anything. Mostly probably 6-4s and 5.5-4.5s.

Then I'd say he's even, or a bit worse off against the rest, probably 5-5 to 4.5-5.5, and some 4-6s:

Kung Lao, Sonya, Sub Zero, Cassie, Kung Jin, Kano, Erron Black, D'Vorah, and Raiden

Just because, for the most part, their tools are a bit better than his.

So, all in all, I actually think he has more worse match ups than you do, I just also think that the rest are fairly good for him, which is why I'd rank him as a solid mid, to high-mid, tier character.
 

Buiu

Woot
jc is not a good mu for kk imho, ex np rape every kk followup.


jonny have a good fb game, good walk speed and a long reach normals to bait and punish kk jip
 
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PetulantWaste

Apprentice
I've said it a million times but the problem with Kotal is that 2 important parts of his defensive move set, parry and sun ray were implemented HORRIBLY. If those moves worked like they are supposed to then he would be a solid high mid character. Parry would make his wakeup game less linear and he would be able to control space and add pressure if his sun ray was less punishable. Why the fuck can Erron Black throw caltrops at point blank range and continue wake up pressure but Kotal can't throw out sun ray FROM FULL SCREEN AFTER (some) KNOCKDOWNS without getting punished by 3/4s of the cast.
 

Mrfinesse28

Your Sacrifice Honors Me!
These complaint threads are horrible and made because people don't know how to play this character or anything about his tools.

Parry and MB parry don't matter, all variations are solid mid tiers at the least and cover up each other's weaknesses. Learn to use them all, that's what you're supposed to do.

B12 and B122 are all done when you want more corner damage, have made a read or want to mix your opponent up with war god's mixups.

F1B2 is a 11f whiff punisher into 40%+ combos, it's not your main poke and you're not doing it unless you're whiff punishing, it's like you guys want to just press every single string he has randomly and win. That's not how stuff works in fighting games. F34 isn't even unsafe vs certain characters.

KK is not easy to keep away, KK players are bad at getting in. There are setups for sun beam.
Add me on xbl mrfinesse28
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
What matches do you think he wins. The only possibility in my mind is Goro but I'll admit I know nothing about him so I gave it an even score. I did a matchup chart yesterday on paper and I put down that kotal wins 0 matchups, goes even with 17 and loses 10. With 4 of those being 3-7. It's possible that some of these could get better or worse but that's how I feel right now.
Goro wins the matchup vs any variation. I played @Metzos back when I used to play.