Match-up Discussion Kitana Matchup Discussion Thread

[RWDY Nori]

Vegeta: You said it yourself, don't allow anybody to jump in on your Kitana. Be more patient, bait those jumps out and hammer them for great damage

 

[RWDY Nori]

I played against Sabin's day 1 Kenshi today. I sent him hatemail.

Dash block your way in. I'm surprised Kitana players don't mention how she has one of the best dashes in the game. It's incredibly fast and travels far. Once you get in on Kenshi and start crossing him up, it's lights out. I'm not saying it's easy, but I'm not convinced Kenshi wins this matchup at all. I think it's 5.5-4.5 for Kitana

 

[Shords]

So I know I told Konqrr a while back that I thought the matchup vs Liu Kang was about a 4.5-5.5 LK. However, the more I play Xblades, the more I'm convinced its worse lol. For starters, we all know d1 is good but it IS punishable and can be counterpoked. It's just that most people don't utilize instant block releasing to do so. So me and Xblades tested on what Liu Kang can do against it a while back. The thing is, Liu Kang can not only counterpoke, he can fully punish her with a combo for ~37%! His b312 has a deceiving range and because d1 doesn't have much hit stun, if Liu Kang lets go of block quick enough, he can punish her with a b312 into a full combo.

Now with that said, I'm not really sure what the matchup #s should be, but I feel like he can outzone her, outpressure her up close, AND even beats her in her d1 range. Maybe I'm playing it wrong and my d1 spacing is bad, I'll have to test that out again later, but I'm starting to feel lost vs this matchup. It certainly feels like an uphill battle to me. Anyone have good experience vs Liu Kang that can shed some light?

 

[MK Peanuts]

So I know I told Konqrr a while back that I thought the matchup vs Liu Kang was about a 4.5-5.5 LK. However, the more I play Xblades, the more I'm convinced its worse lol. For starters, we all know d1 is good but it IS punishable and can be counterpoked. It's just that most people don't utilize instant block releasing to do so. So me and Xblades tested on what Liu Kang can do against it a while back. The thing is, Liu Kang can not only counterpoke, he can fully punish her with a combo for ~37%! His b312 has a deceiving range and because d1 doesn't have much hit stun, if Liu Kang lets go of block quick enough, he can punish her with a b312 into a full combo.

Now with that said, I'm not really sure what the matchup #s should be, but I feel like he can outzone her, outpressure her up close, AND even beats her in her d1 range. Maybe I'm playing it wrong and my d1 spacing is bad, I'll have to test that out again later, but I'm starting to feel lost vs this matchup. It certainly feels like an uphill battle to me. Anyone have good experience vs Liu Kang that can shed some light?

Can Liu Kang really outzone Kitana? I've tried, and it seems like the fans beat everything. You can't go under them with low fireballs and they're fast enough that you don't recover from instant air fireball in time to block the fans.

 

[Shords]

Can Liu Kang really outzone Kitana? I've tried, and it seems like the fans beat everything. You can't go under them with low fireballs and they're fast enough that you don't recover from instant air fireball in time to block the fans.

Low fireball definitely beats out IAfans and trades for the same dmg vs grounded fans. If Liu Kang ever decides to break a stalemate, he can just ex dragonkick his way over on one of the fan attempts and take the life lead. If Liu Kang is in the life lead, Kitana basically has to make her way in and deal with the barrage of low and IAfireballs and into Liu Kang's superior up close pressure game.

 

[rev0lver]

The thing is, Liu Kang can not only counterpoke, he can fully punish her with a combo for ~37%!

SHHHHHH!!!!

And yeah, Kang low-air fireball pressure does actually give Kitana trouble. Since her only armored attack is ex squareboost, you have to time it properly if you want to get in without dash-blocking. Even so, I've had it happen where I do ex squareboost, go through the first fireball, and he still has enough time to throw another air fireball to hit you out of it. It's not as easy as throwing out a Cage ex shadowkick.

 

[Konqrr]

So I know I told Konqrr a while back that I thought the matchup vs Liu Kang was about a 4.5-5.5 LK. However, the more I play Xblades, the more I'm convinced its worse lol. For starters, we all know d1 is good but it IS punishable and can be counterpoked. It's just that most people don't utilize instant block releasing to do so. So me and Xblades tested on what Liu Kang can do against it a while back. The thing is, Liu Kang can not only counterpoke, he can fully punish her with a combo for ~37%! His b312 has a deceiving range and because d1 doesn't have much hit stun, if Liu Kang lets go of block quick enough, he can punish her with a b312 into a full combo.

Now with that said, I'm not really sure what the matchup #s should be, but I feel like he can outzone her, outpressure her up close, AND even beats her in her d1 range. Maybe I'm playing it wrong and my d1 spacing is bad, I'll have to test that out again later, but I'm starting to feel lost vs this matchup. It certainly feels like an uphill battle to me. Anyone have good experience vs Liu Kang that can shed some light?

LOL! I knew about this a long time ago but didn't want to say anything... the hat's out of the bag now

 

[Shords]

LOL! I knew about this a long time ago but didn't want to say anything... the hat's out of the bag now

Haha I've known for a while now too but just been really hesitant to discuss it and Xblades hasn't really been doing it consistently til now. But whatever, we were gonna have to deal with it sooner or later, right? lol

 

[rev0lver]

That's why I have a problem with people who complain more about Kitana's d1 than Mileena/Sonya's d4. You're pushed back too far to punish d4's. I can't emphasize enough that the tool of d1 doesn't win matches, especially against someone who knows what they're doing.

 

[Mr.Snuggles]

I still feel LK is at least 5.5-4.5. You just have to zone him out constantly and bait the Ex Dragon Kick. I played against ESP Gangsta's LK at MLG Raleigh and he had problems getting in close, but it was pretty much over once he started putting constant pressure.

His low fireball can be iAF over if timed right ( so you don't fall into his fireball ), but he generally recovers quick enough where he can dragon kick afterwards and connect if your try to iAF. Bait this and punish it. Your iAF are also faster than his fireballs. You just can't allow him to get the timing advantage over you. Constant pressure from far away seems like the only answer but it is possible. If he gets in close, get the hell out of there as soon as possible.

 

[16 Bit]

Looking at it in training mode Liu Kang has to block a d+1 hella close for b+3,1,2 to hit. Surely he doesn't have time to block d+1, let go, dash forward and do it?

He can't punish d+1 without worrying about d+1~cutter and vice versa. If they like to counter poke after d+1 then take a step back then punish the whiff with f+2,1.

 

[Shords]

No, he doesn't have to dash to reach. I believe he hits her arms as she retracts, though I may need to test the range again to be certain. I'll try to figure it out for certain tonight at IE battlegrounds since I can't do much with this training mode.

Also, you're right about him having to know if you're gonna throw out a cutter or not. Just rewatched my match from last week and I definitely needed to mix it up more and not throw out d1~cutter back to back or do d1x2. I still think Kitana needs to be wary of the fact that Liu kang can punish d1~cutter with an uppercut or a naked d1 with b312. It sorta limits her d1 pressure game but it's probably not as bad as I made it out to be lol.

 

[16 Bit]

My regular online Kenshi comp is blowing me up now. How the hell do you get in? He uses the shoulder barge and spirit dragon punch as a fortress. Both seem safe unless you're right up close. After a blocked barge I can't even get in with a d+1, another barge wins. I can only get in if I block a DP and I try to dash in and get something out or if I get a lucky jump in. Once you get the knockdown and you can start crossing him up I don't see how it's lights out for him. Maybe with other characters but Kitana has weak mixups and pressure so against somebody who knows how to deal with her he just stonewalls and my crossups give me like chip damage and throws. This matchup sucks.

 

[NogunYesknife]

4-6 In favor of Kabal is BS.

Out of every single high level play i ve ever watched (between kabal and kitana), Kabal has never won. NEVER. And I lose to kitanas too much online. Fans just completely shut down your fireball, and Kabal's pokes and normal are just to bad. it really is basically impossible. Who ever is making these lists has a biased view on kabal.

 

[Mr.Snuggles]

4-6 In favor of Kabal is BS.

Out of every single high level play i ve ever watched (between kabal and kitana), Kabal has never won. NEVER. And I lose to kitanas too much online. Fans just completely shut down your fireball, and Kabal's pokes and normal are just to bad. it really is basically impossible. Who ever is making these lists has a biased view on kabal.

Your absolutely right, Kabal should probably be 3-7 [/slight sarcasm].

His air fireballs are faster with higher recovery, which means he can fireball and block a fan before I can block his fireball. In fact, I'm pretty sure I've had Kabal players shoot two fireballs at about the same speed as it took my iAF to reach them. If Kabal hits Kitana high enough with the fireball he can Nomad Dash in for a combo as she's falling. His Buzz Saw makes it hard to throw ground fans in combination with his iNstant air fireball. His EX Nomad Dash can blow through a fan for a full combo. He completely shuts down Kitana's zoning game in every way. Now, when he has no meter he isn't quite as scary. Kabal gains meter so quickly though this rarely happens. Also, up close Kabal has a much scarier mixup game than Kitana. Not saying Kabal has the greatest mixups in the world, but they are better than Kitana's.

He quite literally has the advantage in every situation. So how is Kabal not a 4-6?

It really sounds to me like you need to practice your instant air fireballs and learn the Kitana matchup better. That or you're being read by the opponent.

 

[rev0lver]

4-6 In favor of Kabal is BS.

Out of every single high level play i ve ever watched (between kabal and kitana), Kabal has never won. NEVER. And I lose to kitanas too much online. Fans just completely shut down your fireball, and Kabal's pokes and normal are just to bad. it really is basically impossible. Who ever is making these lists has a biased view on kabal.

Are you kidding me? I remember Konqrr losing to Mike's and OnlineTony's Kabals at Revelations (and Erik Warda beat CD the 2nd time at SJ), but that's not the only reason this matchup is in favor of Kabal. Fireballs shut down fans, not the other way around. The only reason Kitana would get the advantage is if she took the timing advantage from the start. She can't start any combos on him without a JIP (jumping is terrible vs Kabal), a punish (only in the off-chance that the Kabal fucks up his dash cancelling), or managing to sneak a 2 in Kabal's pressure strings for an ex fan starter. I was asking Erik Warda the other day about Kitana's options against Kabal and he was explaining how hard it is for her to touch him (just to give you an example of what someone's said).

 

[16 Bit]

Well I did take out Online Tony. You know, in a set where he clearly didn't know what the hell was going on with Kitana and we were both so sloppy it could only be called high level play in name only. Guess that means it's 8-2 her.

 

[rev0lver]

You also have to remember 4-6 isn't 0-10. Just because a char has a disadvantage doesn't mean they'll lose every time, and player skill is more important than character skill.

 

[Konqrr]

Kitana loses to Kabal 6-4 and maybe even 6.5-3.5. He can simply spam ground air fireballs from a distance and he wins the trade. Kabal controls the air where Kitana reigns supreme and it shuts her down big time. Kitana is not good up close with her slow ass normals but she has to fight her way in.

I was just playing against a local Kabal who can't even do f32 mixups but he knew how to zone with him and I was having a hard time. Ground and Air fans were pretty much a non factor because he played the fireball game very smart. I won every match, but that was just the skill gap, it was difficult.

 

[rev0lver]

I played a few good Kabals tonight, and yes if you get the timing advantage you can control the air. If Kabal gets knocked down, you can time an IAF on the wakeup ground saw without getting hit, and keep the pressure from there. Alot of times you'll even hit him out of ex nomad dash. But this is all half-luck, and it's an uphill battle for kit.

 

[RWDY Nori]

My regular online Kenshi comp is blowing me up now. How the hell do you get in? He uses the shoulder barge and spirit dragon punch as a fortress. Both seem safe unless you're right up close. After a blocked barge I can't even get in with a d+1, another barge wins. I can only get in if I block a DP and I try to dash in and get something out or if I get a lucky jump in. Once you get the knockdown and you can start crossing him up I don't see how it's lights out for him. Maybe with other characters but Kitana has weak mixups and pressure so against somebody who knows how to deal with her he just stonewalls and my crossups give me like chip damage and throws. This matchup sucks.

Have you tested this offline? And how well do you know Kenshi? Kitana is way faster also. Kenshi CANNOT deal w/crossups, he's one of the worst in the game at it, it's just bad.

 

[16 Bit]

No I've literally never played a Kenshi offline. So maybe the shoulder/uppercut would be easier to deal with. Online it's ridiculous though. I can only punish the uppercut with 2,1 if it's point blank range, which it never is the way he uses it.

 

[Konqrr]

No I've literally never played a Kenshi offline. So maybe the shoulder/uppercut would be easier to deal with. Online it's ridiculous though. I can only punish the uppercut with 2,1 if it's point blank range, which it never is the way he uses it.

Doesn't the shoulder move push you out far enough where if he does another it whiffs? If that is the case and he goes for another bf2, you could do an ex fan into bnb. You have to play Kenshi like you fight Shang. Stay out of bf2 and db1 range unless you have a combo opportunity and punish the overhead attempts that you don't have to block. You get a ex fan to bnb from like 1/2 screen or more if he messes up or at least you get an ex fan and can close the distance for a jps pressure string where you get half a meter back.

The Kenshi matchup does suck, but it's not as hard as Kabal.

Also, Kenshi has ways to deal with crossup pressure, but you have got to have quick reactions... dash out and bf2 works wonders.

 

[PANDA]

why do they scale it 1% less in practice mode

 

[VIDA]

Not sure where to post this but in the mirror a ducked cutter can be punished by a 21~KOMBO. Yikes! So can any combo starter that is 11 frames or less punish a ducked cutter?