Kitana General Discussion

[xWildx]

Some Sonic vs Hayatei matches.

 

[Juxtapose]

Some Sonic vs Hayatei matches.

Interesting, I didn't know that Hayatei was playing Kitana.

 

[M2Dave]

Been struggling with Edenian Razor pressure and using Sais at dumb times.

You generally block the low pokes and the nine frame mid attacks and retaliate with b+1,4 into razors or throw. Although both you and your opponent are blocking, Kitana is winning because b+1,4 into razors do more chip damage than any other "string into special move" combination.

You can challenge slower mid strings with d+3, which can be thrown but usually only with a reversal throw, something that is difficult to do consistently. Speaking of throws, never panic. It is always safer to get thrown than to get hit by a mid string. Jumping after razors is no bad option either. You can punish whiffed throws with a jump kick and break away if you get hit by a string.

Also mix up the in-place razors with the forward-moving razors after strings. Unfortunately, I have found that the in-place razors still hit inconsistently and yield different results on different characters.

You can use razors as a meaty attack too, which is super useful because forward roll destroys Kitana's dumb-ass dial strings. Razors beat all options except the invincible one, of course.

As far as sais go, they are best utilized full screen away against non-teleport characters and as an okizeme tool because of the block advantage. Avoid using them mid screen against characters with fast advancing special moves.

...and her damage in highborn isn't as fun as Fan Fares.

Forget the fun. Everybody knows how powerful breakaways and wake up options are in this game. Aside from Kollector, Highborn Kitana has the most damaging grounded combos. She certainly has the best follow ups.

 

[DarksydeDash]

Not sure if this is known but we can cancel frames after a jump with a forward dash. So essentially doing J2 forward dash throw and J2 B14 is a 50/50. If you really wanna be sneaky then you can always do a J2 forward dash, backdash, B14/throw which I've had success with whiff punishing counter poke attempts.

 

[DarksydeDash]

You generally block the low pokes and the nine frame mid attacks and retaliate with b+1,4 into razors or throw. Although both you and your opponent are blocking, Kitana is winning because b+1,4 into razors do more chip damage than any other "string into special move" combination.

You can challenge slower mid strings with d+3, which can be thrown but usually only with a reversal throw, something that is difficult to do consistently. Speaking of throws, never panic. It is always safer to get thrown than to get hit by a mid string. Jumping after razors is no bad option either. You can punish whiffed throws with a jump kick and break away if you get hit by a string.

Also mix up the in-place razors with the forward-moving razors after strings. Unfortunately, I have found that the in-place razors still hit inconsistently and yield different results on different characters.

You can use razors as a meaty attack too, which is super useful because forward roll destroys Kitana's dumb-ass dial strings. Razors beat all options except the invincible one, of course.

As far as sais go, they are best utilized full screen away against non-teleport characters and as an okizeme tool because of the block advantage. Avoid using them mid screen against characters with fast advancing special moves.



Forget the fun. Everybody knows how powerful breakaways and wake up options are in this game. Aside from Kollector, Highborn Kitana has the most damaging grounded combos. She certainly has the best follow ups.

Dave, another thing razors beat are teleports or advancing air specials (like upgraded Jacqui). Scorpion for example you can do a slight hold on razors after knocking him down. This lets you block a spear he'll do to try to punish you and if he teleports, the razors hit behind us and bring him to the front allowing for a 12 fan toss followup into oki.

Against Untamable Jade tele, you can do the same thing minus the 12 follow up.

 

[Zer0_h0ur]

What are your go-to anti airs for Highborn?

 

[DarksydeDash]

What are your go-to anti airs for Highborn?

D2 for jump ins, D3 for cross ups, razors on a read

 

[DarksydeDash]

Have you guys fought soul master Shang Tsung? He feels like a very bad matchup between a parry that beats all our zoning options, and a slide as well. We can't punish max distance Ermac left either unless we're in fanfare

 

[ShredMinor]

Can we please buff fan-fare, it's the only variation I enjoy playing but she just struggles SO hard in some places. Fan fare adds almost nothing to kitana as a variation

My gripes with her

• D4 is +13 on hit and a good spacing tool

One of her main and best pokes yet on hit (as long as it's not point blank) leaves you with nothing without overextending. Please give her better options after d4 on hit. Increase the + frames or something or dont make them stumble back so far on hit.

• The projectile parry, its variation specific so make it worth using.

Parrying something adds ALOT more recovery to the point its safer to duck or block the projectile and move. So here's what I'd want

Buff

Make parry special cancellable to a fan so she can parry and rip off a fan right after to potentially punish or at the very least create some pressure and a decision to take the extra recovery at the cost of potentially scoring a normal on hit for the damage buff

ACTUAL good buffs

Remove the useless maximum range KB requirement on square wave and just have it as a counter or punish and make this also cancellable from parry so she can parry xx square wave kb. Imagine that, actual offence options from her variation specific tools.

• Fans

Being that they define her they are so overly unsafe. A fan from the starting position is -10, Kanos knife in this position is -3. She cant use them up close without getting punished. Please make them safer or at least make mb fans safe.

• Unusable strings

21222, 21434, 3212 all need to be looked at.

And please just make f234 staggerable.
Making it cancellable has absolutely alienated fan-fare only to being flawless blocked or punished as her fans are unsafe. Any other special is a death sentence.

• B2

And lastly remove the pushback on b2 on block, so we can legitimately take advantage of the 0 and use d3 after, 9/10 times d3 doesnt reach

Bonus

Throwing B231 just to be floated out of and punished on their wakeup is a horrific and sickening experience. Change the timings so that it floats and still lands without compromising the string aka dont randomly give it gaps or nerf it into oblivion.

Fan-fare is supposed to be the middle ground right, the more versatile but no real potent mixups or the pressure or zoning like highborn has. All of these changes would accentuate this playstyle. And these buffs would give her the rewards she deserves for making the right read and opening someone up because at the moment she's working way too hard for almost nothing.

Edited some mistakes, I'm on mobile.

 

[exflyingbooty]

If we're gonna buff her I just want to do long fan combos from mid screen

 

[kevkopdx]

If we're gonna buff her I just want to do long fan combos from mid screen

Kabal plays more like kitana in this game lol

 

[ShredMinor]

If we're gonna buff her I just want to do long fan combos from mid screen

At this point I'm over them, they wouldn't even do the damage they used to so what's the point.

I want some ACTUAL thought out buffs and I think my suggestions would make her an all round solid character like cassie cage.

 

[xWildx]

A REALLY simple buff... don’t let people breakaway from her fucking lift.

 

[ShredMinor]

A REALLY simple buff... don’t let people breakaway from her fucking lift.

The way I go about it is using j2, j2, 12 xx square wave. She cant really be breakaway punished during this ender.

Once they cant breakaway I'll start to mix up the following enders

J2, b14 fan for biggest advantage and can threaten with grab

J2 dash f222 for wall carry and keep away

J2 dash 3212 very slightly less wall carry and damage than f222 but you get dash b2/f2 pressure after so it's the happy middle. My personal favourite

 

[DarksydeDash]

A REALLY simple buff... don’t let people breakaway from her fucking lift.

Glad to see I'm not the only one suggesting this

 

[ShredMinor]

Glad to see I'm not the only one suggesting this

This suggestion makes no sense and heres why

J2, j2, 12 xx square wave ender

If you land kitanas lift they can either:

Breakaway immediately (before kitana even starts to jump to hit j2) in this case not only can you complete the whiffed j2 but you're plus, so you can land a meaty b1 if they normal wakeup. Which also means you can also meaty a throw.

If they breakaway during the j2 onwards (most common)

I have labbed this and at no point can I breakaway, get up, and then punish her

Worst case is you breakaway during 12 and she square waves over to the other side, this is still safe. Not even sub zero can slide punish it.

Now, if you made lift so that they can't breakaway at all until the animation finishes it would change nothing because your next hit would then be breakaway-able anyway.

So all this tells me is after lift you're using b14 or another string which CAN get punished if they breakaway.

So this "buff" you want already exists and you're just not using it.

The last thing I want is to wait months for a batch of useless kitana buffs because they are all in the wrong areas.

 

[xKhaoTik]

Can we please buff fan-fare, it's the only variation I enjoy playing but she just struggles SO hard in some places. Fan fare adds almost nothing to kitana as a variation

My gripes with her

• D4 is +13 on hit and a good spacing tool

One of her main and best pokes yet on hit (as long as it's not point blank) leaves you with nothing without overextending. Please give her better options after d4 on hit. Increase the + frames or something or dont make them stumble back so far on hit.

• The projectile parry, its variation specific so make it worth using.

Parrying something adds ALOT more recovery to the point its safer to duck or block the projectile and move. So here's what I'd want

Buff

Make parry special cancellable to a fan so she can parry and rip off a fan right after to potentially punish or at the very least create some pressure and a decision to take the extra recovery at the cost of potentially scoring a normal on hit for the damage buff

ACTUAL good buffs

Remove the useless maximum range KB requirement on square wave and just have it as a counter or punish and make this also cancellable from parry so she can parry xx square wave kb. Imagine that, actual offence options from her variation specific tools.

• Fans

Being that they define her they are so overly unsafe. A fan from the starting position is -10, Kanos knife in this position is -3. She cant use them up close without getting punished. Please make them safer or at least make mb fans safe.

• Unusable strings

21222, 21434, 3212 all need to be looked at.

And please just make f234 staggerable.
Making it cancellable has absolutely alienated fan-fare only to being flawless blocked or punished as her fans are unsafe. Any other special is a death sentence.

• B2

And lastly remove the pushback on b2 on block, so we can legitimately take advantage of the 0 and use d3 after, 9/10 times d3 doesnt reach

Bonus

Throwing B231 just to be floated out of and punished on their wakeup is a horrific and sickening experience. Change the timings so that it floats and still lands without compromising the string aka dont randomly give it gaps or nerf it into oblivion.

Fan-fare is supposed to be the middle ground right, the more versatile but no real potent mixups or the pressure or zoning like highborn has. All of these changes would accentuate this playstyle. And these buffs would give her the rewards she deserves for making the right read and opening someone up because at the moment she's working way too hard for almost nothing.

Edited some mistakes, I'm on mobile.

These are all universal buffs (besides the parry). Sure it would make fan fare better but then Highborn would be able to do everything it does now plus this. Not a good look.

 

[ShredMinor]

I've just thought of a way to make 21434 useful

The last three kicks are in the air right, so if she could cancel into mb fan she could continue combos at the wall

At the wall

Launch xx lift, (b3)4 xx fan, 21434 works (albeit tight)

This could turn into

Launch xx lift, (b3)4 xx fan, 21334 xx mb fan into b14 or 12 xx ender (whatever the gravity allows.)

That would be a very cool combo I think but not sure If would beat out the current bnb, but it might because 21434 does alot by itself.

 

[M2Dave]

Have you guys fought soul master Shang Tsung? He feels like a very bad matchup between a parry that beats all our zoning options, and a slide as well. We can't punish max distance Ermac left either unless we're in fanfare

I have some experience versus Soul Master because I occasionally fight Wound Cowboy. In my opinion, Highborn goes even with or beats all of Shang Tsung's variations, including Soul Master.

The main difference between the two characters is damage output and comeback factor. All of Kitana's successful hits lead to 22% of damage and 50/50 mix ups that could result in 36% of damage or more. All of Shang Tsung's successful hits lead to 25% of damage. Kitana also has a very good fatal blow while Shang Tsung's fatal blow has limited range and combo potential.

Because Shang Tsung is a zoning character by design, teleports disrupt the gameplay style that he wants to play, and of course Highborn Kitana is fortunate enough to have one.

As far as the shake goes, you can bait it by tossing back and forward sais and try to punish early parries with dive kick, but you should not be tossing fans farther than from half a screen away.

These are all universal buffs (besides the parry). Sure it would make fan fare better but then Highborn would be able to do everything it does now plus this. Not a good look.

"Not a good look" is my response to 90%+ of all of these Kitana buffs because all they would do is buff Highborn the most.

Besides, do some of these Kitana players not realize that every character in this game has worthless strings? NRS are highly unlikely to buff all of them.

The Kitana community is entitled to blow me up when I say "Just shut up and play Highborn".

 

[ShredMinor]

These are all universal buffs (besides the parry). Sure it would make fan fare better but then Highborn would be able to do everything it does now plus this. Not a good look.

Highborn only has air square wave, square wave in fan fare is a vital move for certain matchups.

It goes over jades low projectile and with the surge of dirtbag starting to happen it also can go over a molotov before its thrown so that it can cover the distance without getting burned (providing you're not late otherwise the hit box will still catch you) the list goes on but that's off topic.

Certain strings are more optimal in certain variations, b34 get used in highborn, f234 and b231 get used in its entirety alot because of the low fan mixup in fearless.

And what's bad about universal changes? Fan fare is the "universal" variation that doesnt actually need any drastic new moves or anything, it needs enabling and that parry brings an exclusive playstyle to this variation. Anti Zoning, which then makes her zoning dangerous for a new reason when compared to her other to variations.

Anti zoning when you have zoning options is very strong right now and alot of characters don't have these both at their disposable, fan-fare will.

 

[ShredMinor]

I have some experience versus Soul Master because I occasionally fight Wound Cowboy. In my opinion, Highborn goes even with or beats all of Shang Tsung's variations, including Soul Master.

The main difference between the two characters is damage output and comeback factor. All of Kitana's successful hits lead to 22% of damage and 50/50 mix ups that could result in 36% of damage or more. All of Shang Tsung's successful hits lead to 25% of damage. Kitana also has a very good fatal blow while Shang Tsung's fatal blow has limited range and combo potential.

Because Shang Tsung is a zoning character by design, teleports disrupt the gameplay style that he wants to play, and of course Highborn Kitana is fortunate enough to have one.

As far as the shake goes, you can bait it by tossing back and forward sais and try to punish early parries with dive kick, but you should not be tossing fans farther than from half a screen away.



"Not a good look" is my response to 90%+ of all of these Kitana buffs because all they would do is buff Highborn the most.

Besides, do some of these Kitana players not realize that every character in this game has worthless strings? NRS are highly unlikely to buff all of them.

The Kitana community is entitled to blow me up when I say "Just shut up and play Highborn".

I understand this but you cant shun suggestions and if everyone didn't bother suggesting there would be no feedback to be listened to.

I get highborn is strong but if highborn becomes too strong that's a highborn problem specifically which needs to get looked at. Remember fan-fare was the go to, now its highborn. Things change and highborn could very easily get nerfed and tweaked.

 

[John_NX]

In my opinion, the only good thing about Fan - Fare is ground war, which as Shredminor said, is essential in some matchups because it can punish a lot of unsafe moves and specials easily. However...looking past ground war, what does fan fare REALLY offer?
Counter zoning? Slow as hell and not worth it.
Air gimmicks? Sure sometimes it can work and get you a juicy punish but it's still way to inconsistent and doesn't help her much.
In my opinion...fan fare would be ten times better:

• Her Parry would be like kotals
• Forward - backwards flatter is BASE
• General frame data changes

 

[ShredMinor]

In my opinion, the only good thing about Fan - Fare is ground war, which as Shredminor said, is essential in some matchups because it can punish a lot of unsafe moves and specials easily. However...looking past ground war, what does fan far REALLY offer?
Counter zoning? Slow as hell and not worth it.
Air gimmicks? Sure sometimes it can work and get you a juicy punish but it's still way to inconsistent and doesn't help her much.
In my opinion...fan fare would be ten times better:

• Her Parry would be like kotals
• Forward - backwards flatter is BASE
• General frame data changes

It would bring ALOT of utility

Being able to parry xx fan or ground war would absolutely turn the tables on one of her biggest weaknesses which is fanfare can get zoned out by certain types of zoning, as shes only has a fan and a risk of ground war to throw out.

She could parry and punish cetrions beam, rock, and maybe even the geyser (she can parry the first hit and possibly ground war towards her before the second)

Also parry xx mb ground war would give a damage boost and leave you right next to them. Again, enabling her abilities to work in tandem and have some cohesion in her playstyle.

Just trying to paint some pictures here, as you already understand how ground war just by itself genuinely is a threat in matchups. This amplifies the utility and counter matchups.

Making parry like kotals would be too much, only thing I can see is possibly make it like shang tsung where mb is a strike parry also, but again with an inherent damage buff and my idea of cancels, its way overboard in my opinion. I would much prefer the cancels if I had to choose.

Dont you think directional flutters would just add to fan fare gimmicks? It would be an interesting addition however.

General frame data changes to help her are always welcome.

I really think the parry changes would be significant.

 

[M2Dave]

I get highborn is strong but if highborn becomes too strong that's a highborn problem specifically which needs to get looked at. Remember fan-fare was the go to, now its highborn. Things change and highborn could very easily get nerfed and tweaked.

Highborn has always been the best variation and always will be. The only reason Highborn was not the best variation on day was because of lack of functionality and consistency on razors.

I have no idea why you and several other Kitana players advocate for Highborn to be "nerfed and tweaked" just so your wishful buffs for Fan-Fare could finally be realized. Fan-Fare will never be as good as Highborn by design.

To me, Kitana is tournament viable. She is as good as she will ever be in this game because NRS are not going to watch StarCharger's YouTube suggestions and buff every single normal attack.

Besides, even if Highborn were to be nerfed and Fan-Fare were to be buffed, many of you would still be complaining about how how she is not good enough.

As I have said, play Highborn and just shut up already.

 

[John_NX]

Highborn has always been the best variation and always will be. The only reason Highborn was not the best variation on day was because of lack of functionality and consistency on razors.

I have no idea why you and several other Kitana players advocate for Highborn to be "nerfed and tweaked" just so your wishful buffs for Fan-Fare could finally be realized. Fan-Fare will never be as good as Highborn by design.

To me, Kitana is tournament viable. She is as good as she will ever be in this game because NRS are not going to watch StarCharger's YouTube suggestions and buff every single normal attack.

Besides, even if Highborn were to be nerfed and Fan-Fare were to be buffed, many of you would still be complaining about how how she is not good enough.

As I have said, play Highborn and just shut up already.

That is a very passive aggressive attitude you have there mister.