Match-up Discussion KILLER FROST - Official Community Match-Up Discussion

[Chongo]

Guys, anything new that anyone has found that should make it into the character MU sections?? Let me know.

dat 1 sentence for NW ;_;

Add that NW can punish a blocked iceberg with ground blast (iceberg is -26, ground blast has 21 frame startup) If NW is late he still gets +9. If you block a ground blast and I do another, it'll beat out both daggers and spike.
Post blocked slide options:
Staff: b1 catches backdashes, but can be parried and is a high. 0 on block.
Escrima: b2 catches backdashes, put can be parried and is an overhead. -4 on block, though if you try to 111 into whatever after a blocked b2, I can do b2xxflipkick and blow you up. d1 makes the flipkick whiff.

The corner is good for NW, either pushblock and lose a bar which you need for 50/50s or eat chip. Not really that good since daggers build hella meter but its something.

After a blocked D1 in staff, parry beats everything besides sweep, flying grayson and d1xxmb groundblast. However d2 canceled into any special move cannot be parried.

You want to be in Staff for this MU most of the time imo, which sucks because Staff sucks against full screen. NW loses trades (5% ground blast vs 11% daggers and 10% icebergs) and dash sucks. Yolo flying grayson doesn't really work either.

IMO 6-4 frost. Feel free to correct any misinformation (theres probably a lot because I suck)

Edit: added something I forget.

 

[M2Dave]

I came out ahead in my sets against him, but it would help to start with your hangups.

The only Killer Frost player to have beaten is REO.

 

[RiBBz22]

The only Killer Frost player to have beaten is REO.

Soon Mario

 

[RiBBz22]

dat 1 sentence for NW ;_;

Add that NW can punish a blocked iceberg with ground blast (iceberg is -26, ground blast has 21 frame startup) If NW is late he still gets +9. If you block a ground blast and I do another, it'll beat out both daggers and spike.
Post blocked slide options:
Staff: b1 catches backdashes, but can be parried and is a high. 0 on block.
Escrima: b2 catches backdashes, put can be parried and is an overhead. -4 on block, though if you try to 111 into whatever after a blocked b2, I can do b2xxflipkick and blow you up. d1 makes the flipkick whiff.

The corner is good for NW, either pushblock and lose a bar which you need for 50/50s or eat chip. Not really that good since daggers build hella meter but its something.

You want to be in Staff for this MU most of the time imo, which sucks because Staff sucks against full screen. NW loses trades (5% ground blast vs 11% daggers and 10% icebergs) and dash sucks. Yolo flying grayson doesn't really work either.

IMO 6-4 frost. Feel free to correct any misinformation (theres probably a lot because I suck)

Added some info in the section.

 

[Chongo]

Added some info in the section.

look at it again I added a sentence or two which could be important.

thnks bby <3

 

[ApocaLips]

The only Killer Frost player to have beaten is REO.

It was only around 15 matches, but I was ahead on Wednesday. That's some selective memory you have Mario.

I'm not trying to waive around the set or something, and I have no idea what will happen in another 15 matches, but I don't know why you're acting like it never happened either.

 

[EMPEROR_THEO]

Just my two cents about the Aquaman matchup.

From full screen, if Aquaman sees a frozen dagger coming, he can trait up and do a FTD. Killer Frost takes 8%, and Aquaman takes about 6.5%. With this option existing, its unsafe to say that Killer Frost's daggers are the end-all be-all to keep Aquaman out.

In theory fighting, Aquaman is always going to be at the life advantage once Killer Frost releases the daggers at the start of a match, so at the end of the day, Killer Frost has to come to him if this is how the match begins.

Pre-patch, Aquaman could probably outzone Killer Frost with this option with his trait recovery. Now, its more of a good option when both characters are at about even health. I experimented with how much the life difference would be if both characters traded like this and the life difference was about 15-20% in Killer Frost's favor at the end of a match.

I mean, even that 1.5% health advantage in Aquaman's favor still forces Killer Frost to commit since she can't safely hurt him from fullscreen footsies, and everyone and their mother knows that committing against Aquaman's footsies are a pain in the ass.

Also, Killer Frost's air backdash can be anti-aired by Aquaman's FTD on reaction. Ground backdash, I'm not too sure even though it has a lot of recovery frames as well. So you can't really always be on the run against Aquaman on your life advantage.

Misspaced F3's on Killer Frost's part are extremely suspectible to being punished by B12.

I say its 5-5 because its just such a dependent matchup on who has the life lead since both characters have a hard time committing to each other's footsies. I think saying "6-4 Killer Frost because Iceberg punishes FTD" is too shallow, and I'm not overlooking how Killer Frost can harass Aquaman on wakeup.

 

[Rickyraws]

Just my two cents about the Aquaman matchup.

From full screen, if Aquaman sees a frozen dagger coming, he can trait up and do a FTD. Killer Frost takes 8%, and Aquaman takes about 6.5%. With this option existing, its unsafe to say that Killer Frost's daggers are the end-all be-all to keep Aquaman out.

In theory fighting, Aquaman is always going to be at the life advantage once Killer Frost releases the daggers at the start of a match, so at the end of the day, Killer Frost has to come to him if this is how the match begins.

Pre-patch, Aquaman could probably outzone Killer Frost with this option with his trait recovery. Now, its more of a good option when both characters are at about even health. I experimented with how much the life difference would be if both characters traded like this and the life difference was about 15-20% in Killer Frost's favor at the end of a match.

I mean, even that 1.5% health advantage in Aquaman's favor still forces Killer Frost to commit since she can't safely hurt him from fullscreen footsies, and everyone and their mother knows that committing against Aquaman's footsies are a pain in the ass.

Also, Killer Frost's air backdash can be anti-aired by Aquaman's FTD on reaction. Ground backdash, I'm not too sure even though it has a lot of recovery frames as well. So you can't really always be on the run against Aquaman on your life advantage.

Misspaced F3's on Killer Frost's part are extremely suspectible to being punished by B12.

I say its 5-5 because its just such a dependent matchup on who has the life lead since both characters have a hard time committing to each other's footsies. I think saying "6-4 Killer Frost because Iceberg punishes FTD" is too shallow, and I'm not overlooking how Killer Frost can harass Aquaman on wakeup.

Very interesting, and I agree with most of what you're saying. I haven't really been put in a situation where I attempted to 'lame out' an Aquaman player so I can't really comment on that. When AM gets the life lead, they know that a random FTD can bring us in full screen with a MB Iceberg into the meterless vortex to screw with his wakeup or if there isn't enough meter to do the regular one/ if he has his trait at the ready. Some Aquamen have varying sytles in the way they approach the KF MU, from what I've noticed. I've played just about all noteworthy AMs online except for you in that regard and I can actually tell them apart even if their playstyle may not be DRASTICALLY different from one another. The main thing that KFs will tell you that makes her able to deal with him is the fact that she can launch him with slide. The threat of being in the air and rendering his trait useless can really instill more fear than you'd think, and I've noticed that AM's backdash isn't very good either. But when the Frost doesn't have meter to push block a MB Trident Rush, you can use that momentum to your benefit with trait at the ready to continue pressure sparingly. Wrong reads on both sides are pretty devastating.

 

[gabesena]

Any tips on the Hawkgirl matchup ?

 

[RiBBz22]

Just my two cents about the Aquaman matchup..

I honestly don't see trait into ground trident against full screen daggers as that huge of a deal (although viable for sure). I don't think giving up the life lead in a situation like this means enough to put the controller down or anything. KF's comeback factor is definitely good enough to make up for this. Plus, once trait is used in this situation KF can go back to zoning and building meter which can translate to damage later in the match. As for punishing air dashes and jumps, any character fighting Aquaman needs to respect that and understand that they can't just do these things for free they have to be smart about it. Plus, if you know they are waiting to punish your backdash on reaction then you can probably jump back for free.

B12 is such a good string for AM in this MU. He can use it to punish forward and backdashes so the KF player needs to be really careful about how their opponents are using the string. I think AM probably wins the post slide guessing game because of how good and versatile b12 is (delayed/non-delayed mind games).

With all this said, I still think the MU is slightly in KF's favor but it isn't like the MU is total domination. I don't really discount anything in this game so hell, it could be 5-5 the game is still young. My opinion has already flipped flopped between 5-5 and 6-4 a few times over the past few patches. Once she lost her trait cancel into 50-50's I figured that was enough to push it back to 5-5, but that was just a gut feeling.

I think that

• KF wins both sides of the wakeup game convincingly; Can bully Aquaman on wakeup with meterless vortex and bait and punish wake-up attempts
• Punishes one of Aquaman's best tools into a full combo from near full screen which affects the MU more for Aquaman than for KF IMO
• Has better all-around mobility than Aquaman
• Better full screen meter building than Aquaman in a MU that revolves around turtling
• Dagger projectile still a great keep-out tool that can help control horizontal space
• Can still vortex Aquaman in spite of trait
• Can parry mixup options like Aquaman's b2 on reaction as well as F13 between F1 and 3
  • F1 low scoop can be blocked before confirming the parry command and scoop is punishable. In theory fighting this meta favors Frost.
• Has a great keep-out tool in D2 when done properly especially when AM is forced to work his way in (and leads to vortex/meterless vortex)
• Can charge trait for free at full screen and punish any full screen zoning attempts

Just a general note:

Can non-KF mains please stop doing things like putting quotations around KF WINS BECAUSE SHE CAN PUNISH GROUND TRIDENT WITH ICEBERG...This is really annoying and borderline disrespectful to our forum because it is obviously a result of listening to podcasts and not really forum discussion.

ApocaLips RunwayMafia xKhaoTik Konqrr Rickyraws

What do you guys think about the AM matchup? I could be way off base so let me know.

 

[xKhaoTik]

I think she wins. I will forever think she wins. And you explained it best.

 

[Rickyraws]

I
ApocaLips RunwayMafia xKhaoTik Konqrr Rickyraws

What do you guys think about the AM matchup? I could be way off base so let me know.

Personally, if you told me it was 5-5, I wouldn't disagree with you. If you told me it was 6-4 Frost I wouldn't disagree with you. I've had this conversation in the past with some Aquamen as well. I can only speak of myself and my own experiences. These instances obviously are not to disrespect the Aquaman or Killer Frost community by inferring that I'm taking into account players that aren't playing at a high level: All I know is that I enjoy playing against Aquaman and lose more to so called 'bottom tier' characters (Shazam, Joker) than Aquaman oddly enough. This could easily be a testament to how comfortable I am in the AM MU as opposed to the others, a statement on the level of play between two parties, me just sucking against low tiers etc. etc. and many many more things. As such, I try not to comment on the MU (number wise. Otherwise, I'm always willing to speak on it) due to the fact that I may be taking into account the fact that I personally do well against AM, as opposed to my character as a whole's tools in comparison to his.

I do very well against him, but it hardly means my matches against him are free. I haven't quite nailed what it is exactly that makes me excel, which is why I feel 5-5 is a safe bet on the MU. Experience may tempt me to say 6-4 Frost, but again, I have a slightly different philosophy on determining MU numbers than most members of the community seem to.


Conclusion: Inconclusive for now.

 

[Rickyraws]

Any tips on the Hawkgirl matchup ?

Yes. This is a MU that you're going to have to play patiently in.

She can stay in the air all day chucking maces. Dodge, duck or block them. Sliding out of danger can be risky when you mistime such and get foot dived.

You can parry a lot of her moves when she's finally grounded.

When she floats closing towards you, she's obviously going to attempt to foot dive you. You can either bait and punish the recovery, jump 1 her in the air (yes, contrary to popular belief, if you're smart about it it WILL hit the Hawkgirl at close range ) and watch for her mace charge wake up.

Check her meter guage at all time. If she's got some butter, she's gonna MB that mace charge. Standing mace toss has hella whiff recovery. You can MB B3 an inevitable Mace charge wake up, as well as jump back 2/3

What exactly is the issue you have though? I feel randomly spewing nonsense will only go so far to provide aid...

 

[@MylesWright_]

I think that

• KF wins both sides of the wakeup game convincingly; Can bully Aquaman on wakeup with meterless vortex (untechable knockdown setups) and bait and punish wake-up attempts (universal to everyone in the game)
• Punishes one of Aquaman's best tools into a full combo from near full screen which affects the MU more for Aquaman than for KF IMO "Correct: because Killer Frosts' zoning is terrible and isn't used therefore doesn't affect her at all" (Aquaman does not need to do mb FTD, FTD. its just commonly done which gives people the impression its one of his primary tools)
• Has better all-around mobility than Aquaman (irrelevant, neither character have good runaway games)
• Better full screen meter building than Aquaman in a MU that revolves around turtling (both characters weak runaway make turtling the other out obsolete)
• Dagger projectile still a great keep-out tool that can help control horizontal space (for a small period of time until they're punishable by j2 on reaction)
• Can still vortex Aquaman in spite of trait
  (Aquaman can trait out of both b1u3 and b1 slide which limits the low option to slide only which still being a 50/50 does have leave one option of the 50/50 doing less damage and building less meter which can be taken into account when guessing. f3 and slide is fuzzy guardable)
• Can parry mixup options like Aquaman's b2 (debatable) on reaction as well as F13 between F1 and 3 (this isn't a mixup and no one does this and its unlikely to be done as f1 is + on block.)
  • F1 low scoop can be blocked before confirming the parry command and scoop is punishable. In theory fighting this meta favors Frost. (I've never seen anyone do f1 low scoop and don't think i ever will)
• Has a great keep-out tool in D2 when done properly especially when AM is forced to work his way in (assuming killer frost has the life-lead) (and leads to vortex/meterless vortex)
• Can charge trait for free at full screen and punish any full screen zoning attempts (irrelevant)
• Well timed slides can trip guard Aquamans j2 when attempting to 'get-in'

 

[RiBBz22]

The hot air that is blown by Myles is stronk

 

[ApocaLips]

I still think it's 5-5, and will be 4-6 once Aquaman players stop playing smart and start going ham with b12~ex trident. Theo's post didn't affect my opinion at all. Neither character is trying to keep the other out indefinitely, so the fact that Aquaman might glean a slight lead in a protracted zoning war isn't very relevant. I explained more fully earlier in this thread, and I don't feel like repeating it.

As for hawkgirl, the goal of the entire match is to figure out when she's going to do d1/d2 and parry that shit. Or mace charge and MBF3 that shit. Everything else is flashy but can't really hurt you. Always block high except for that one string that has a low in the middle.

 

[@MylesWright_]

The hot air that is blown by Myles is stronk

There's upplaying and there's being realistic. Killer Frost being able to parry day 0 mixups no one does, charge trait which no one does or even punish baited wakeups which everyone can, in no way gives her an advantage.

 

[RiBBz22]

There's upplaying and there's being realistic. Killer Frost being able to parry day 0 mixups no one does, charge trait which no one does or even punish baited wakeups which everyone can, in no way gives her an advantage.

Obviously wake-ups can be baited. The point is that her dominance on the oki game forces more wakeup's to predict and punish. No one charges trait.. yeah I agree, but I will do anything for if I can do it for free in a fighting game, plus you may be able to use it as a bait. If Aquaman doesn't use overheads then that is perfectly fine with me.

 

[@MylesWright_]

Obviously wake-ups can be baited. The point is that her dominance on the oki game forces more wakeup's to predict and punish.

Killer Frost has to make reads on his wakeups just like every other character does and the risk/reward factor for both characters is the same. Its not a matter of guessing overhead or low, its a matter of guessing wakeup attack or nothing. fair 5-5

 

[RiBBz22]

Killer Frost has to make reads on his wakeups just like every other character does and the risk/reward factor for both characters is the same. Its not a matter of guessing overhead or low, its a matter of guessing wakeup attack or nothing. fair 5-5

Such an over-generalization of the wakeup game. Each matchup has it's own specific wakeup meta. You can not just say because any character can bait and punish wakeups that the threat of doing it in each matchup is the same.

 

[@MylesWright_]

Such an over-generalization of the wakeup game. Each matchup has it's own specific wakeup meta. You can not just say because any character can bait and punish wakeups that the threat of doing it in each matchup is the same.

Let's not derail what the topic of conversation actually was.
Clearly out of the list you made the primary reason for Killer Frost winning 6-4 is because she can 'bully' Aquaman on wakeup by putting him into an untechable knockdown where he isn't forced to guess overhead or low, then bait and punish his wakeups which almost every other character in the game can also do. Maybe if Aquaman's wakeups were as bad as Raven or Catwoman's where simply going for either f3 or b1u3 would stuff the wakeup it would make sense, but this isn't the case

 

[RiBBz22]

Let's not derail what the topic of conversation actually was.
Clearly out of the list you made the primary reason for Killer Frost winning 6-4 is because she can 'bully' Aquaman on wakeup by putting him into an untechable knockdown where he isn't forced to guess overhead or low, then bait and punish his wakeups which almost every other character in the game can also do. Maybe if Aquaman's wakeups were as bad as Raven or Catwoman's where simply going for either f3 or b1u3 would stuff the wakeup it would make sense, but this isn't the case

No it was just a list of what I considered strengths in the MU, not the deciding factor on what shifts the MU number. We might as well stop discussing this. I fully understand that you disagree with everything I post before I even post it.

 

[@MylesWright_]

No it was just a list of what I considered strengths in the MU, not the deciding factor on what shifts the MU number. We might as well stop discussing this. I fully understand that you disagree with everything I post before I even post it.

 

[ApocaLips]

Dammit RiBBz22, I leave you alone for a few hours and you feed the troll a pound of chocolate.

Everything Myles just said is demonstrably false and has been covered to death elsewhere. Why clog up a whole page?

And LOL at the payoffs on KF's oki being the same as AM's wakeups. Basic damage calcs on the combos immediately prove that false, and that's ignoring the fact that KF's combo is a vortex, that AM cannot use wakeup to stuff a ton of options, etc.

 

[RunwayMafia]

RiBBz22
I think you explained it perfect. She has the tools to counter AM and the meterless vortex is HUGE in this MU because we can bait out his punishable wake ups and the guessing game is in our favor (after conditioning them NOT to wake up, of course). If I were forced to label this MU I'd say she wins it...but only by an ice sickle.

I know you said NOT to mention the ice berg punish for trident, but I LOOOOVE this punish...it's easier to punish on reversal than DS's low guns. Also, I feel so comfortable playing the keep away/zoning game against AM...our projectile is better than his...

I agree with Khao...she wins this.