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Match-up Discussion Kenshi Matchup Discussion Thread

Tolkeen

/wrists
1-4 I'm going to address together, since these are all options at which you're presumably standing midscreen or farther and just throwing them out. A mistake, in other words. These should not be happening, so while those are decent points, standing midscreen and throwing crap at Kabal is not a way to beat him (Is rarely a way to beat anybody really) so those shouldn't really factor into the matchup.

5 is a thing where it's just simple risk/reward. Sometimes he will armor through it, sometimes he won't. Either way, this is another thing that isn't particularly crucial to winning the match. To put it in terms of other games, you can throw a meaty fireball at Dudley with Ryu in SSF4, and he could ultra through it and really hurt you. Does that really swing the momentum of a match? Not really, just don't throw fireballs when he has Ultra. With Kenshi, just watch the TKS on wakeup

6 is a thing where people under-appreciate just how fast Kenshi walks. I'm pretty sure he has the fastest walkspeed in the game, and especially now with the dash nerf, that walkspeed is super appealing, and you can cover quite a bit of distance from a hit shoulder charge just by holding foward.

7 is similar to 5. He could, but does that make it bad? Jax can EX dash punch through my frame traps or Overhead, but does that mean those frame traps are any less effective? Not really. It's one of those things where if to get out of your pressure you have to guess armor, then that's not really that great for the player (Kabal)

8 is something every character can do. I often buffer a back forward motion as if to bait a ND, and sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. Baiting is not just particular to Kabal, although I would agree he has it better than most. Either way, it doesn't swing the matchup in either person's favor.

9, 10 and 11 go back to 6 in that you are gaining ground every time you land a Spirit Charge, and you are continuously pushing Kabal to the corner where he does not want to be. IAGb pressure is irritating, but you can get through it using d3 and just simple walks and dashes forward, coupled with some Spirit Charge to trade or hit him out of it. Every landed Spirit Charge is a victory, plain and simple.

12 goes back to my first point. Kabal can stay in the air easily as well as dash through Teleflurry, and Teleflurry should really only be used in the matches where it is okay to stay fullscreen and throw those out, this match not being one of them. Thankfully your other tools help cover this one not being so effective.

13 is a point that has been made time and time again, that being Spirit Charge is hands down one of the best space control moves in the game, and it goes pretty damn far, and the EX one doubles that. There is no reason that can't be used against ND.

14 is true, but at the same time, if armor is so good for Kabal and practically ruins Kenshi, doesn't by the same token Kenshi's armor (Which is a little better in that it hits twice) kind of hurt Kabal in his pressuring strategy? To me this is a wash if you say that Kabal's armor moves wreck your offense.

Again, I just want to reiterate that while armor is good, it's not really the end of the world. Kenshi has incredibly good corner pressure, and all the armored moves in the world aren't going to help you from that so much, much less save you from Kenshi's own which can help make his corner pressure that much better.

All you've listed are ways to get around Kenshi's disadvantages, you haven't listed any of Kabal's disadvantages except that he can't run around the screen willy nilly, because he has to respect the SC. Mayo gave you a list of 1-14 as to why we don't get to play the game our way in that match-up. Until I see a list of equally acceptable reasons that Kabal doesn't get to play his way in the match-up, I respectfully disagree with you.
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
-Sigh-

What is the one thing Kabal wants to do? Nomad Dash pressure in your face. You have the fairly good options of either a) armor through it or b) d1xxSpirit Charge, which is safe on block and is an insanely good built in frame trap. Kabal can't really run the typical NDC pressure because those are big things he has to watch out for. Same with Jax, who beats him as well.

The other thing is that full screen zoning isn't that effective against Kenshi because you can walk foward and make your hitbox tiny at the same time to get through every one and at the same time, hee's putting himself in the corner (again, superior position lets Kenshi win this match) and in the corner he has to guess armor to get out of the corner. PRECISELY because Kenshi in the corner is so limiting for him since he doesn't have really good options other than guess armor. Buzz saw will knock them away for a second but his back is still there.

Again, when you can't run your usual pressure and your only options out of the other characters are pretty much armor or bust, that's not good for the other character.

If guess armor is considered part of Kabal's game that he has an advantage over, then I don't know what to tell you. That's one of those things you have to learn to get around.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Kabal up close is scary for Kenshi because of Kabal's 2NDC block inf, though, like Hippo said, d1 xx charge helps here.

Everything Hippo said is true...this match comes down to positioning. To keep you away, Kabal has to remain fullscreen, but his zoning is slowly sending him to the corner if that's all he does. Kabal doesn't want to be cornered by Kenshi because it forces Kabal to guess an EX ND out or wait until he can air breaker. If the Kenshi player isn't stupid, Kabal will never get to breaker out...and then that limits Kabal to guessing.

Also, why is teleflurry always being brought up? THE MOVE IS USELESS IN CERTAIN MATCHUPS. This is one of them. Kenshi can play without it.

Again, you guys severely underestimate the importance of positioning and how much it does change everything. Kabal, realistically, isn't keeping Kenshi fullscreen and has to come up to make sure he doesn't put himself in a bad spot. This 7-3 nonsense is people not trying to adjust. Reptile players took the Mileena matchup, grinded it out, and it is now not so bad of a matchup anymore. Why can't it be done here?

Fact is, I don't even think Kenshi players abuse Kenshi's strongest attributes. His footsies are the best in the game, and most Kenshis I see want to play the character fullscreen.
 

davidovitch

In Europe!
In my experience Kabal can simply zone Kenshi with iair fireballs and buzzsaws. It's not THAT scary to walk backwards for Kabal because once Kenshi starts corner pressure Kabal can armor through or even escape with a well-time jump. In my experience this match-up is clearly in Kabal's favor, with the main reason being the zoning.
 

Briggs8417

Salt Proprietor of TYM
In my experience Kabal can simply zone Kenshi with iair fireballs and buzzsaws. It's not THAT scary to walk backwards for Kabal because once Kenshi starts corner pressure Kabal can armor through or even escape with a well-time jump. In my experience this match-up is clearly in Kabal's favor, with the main reason being the zoning.
I did find that on knockdown you can stuff EX ND with EX SC, but idk if that is known or not.
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
I did find that on knockdown you can stuff EX ND with EX SC, but idk if that is known or not.

Yeah if you wanna keep him totally trapped, EX Spirit Charge or Rising Karma on his wakeup will pretty much ensure that no armored or invincible moves will move him out, and he won't get to use a breaker either so he's stuck in the corner still.

In my experience Kabal can simply zone Kenshi with iair fireballs and buzzsaws. It's not THAT scary to walk backwards for Kabal because once Kenshi starts corner pressure Kabal can armor through or even escape with a well-time jump. In my experience this match-up is clearly in Kabal's favor, with the main reason being the zoning.
It's not really that simple though. That's like...I have Sub-Zero cornered, and he has armor on EX slide, so do I stop pressuring him because of the terrifying EX slide? No, I just make sure I continue pressuring him in other ways (D3, D1xxSpirit Charge) where his armor isn't going to scare me anymore.
 

Under_The_Mayo

Master of Quanculations
-Sigh-

What is the one thing Kabal wants to do? Nomad Dash pressure in your face. You have the fairly good options of either a) armor through it or b) d1xxSpirit Charge, which is safe on block and is an insanely good built in frame trap. Kabal can't really run the typical NDC pressure because those are big things he has to watch out for. Same with Jax, who beats him as well.

The other thing is that full screen zoning isn't that effective against Kenshi because you can walk foward and make your hitbox tiny at the same time to get through every one and at the same time, hee's putting himself in the corner (again, superior position lets Kenshi win this match) and in the corner he has to guess armor to get out of the corner. PRECISELY because Kenshi in the corner is so limiting for him since he doesn't have really good options other than guess armor. Buzz saw will knock them away for a second but his back is still there.

Again, when you can't run your usual pressure and your only options out of the other characters are pretty much armor or bust, that's not good for the other character.

If guess armor is considered part of Kabal's game that he has an advantage over, then I don't know what to tell you. That's one of those things you have to learn to get around.
Christ people, we aren't saying its a 10 and 0 matchup. We're just telling you why it's in Kabal's favor. Obviously we know there are ways to try to deal with every issue. But more often that not, Kabal will come out on top in this matchup. You guys have to keep screaming "But nuh uhh! In that case you can blah blah blah". Look, we get it. We don't have to stand there and be a corpse. There are things Cage can do against Kenshi too, doesn't mean that match isn't in Kenshi's favor no matter what.
 

Under_The_Mayo

Master of Quanculations
Yeah if you wanna keep him totally trapped, EX Spirit Charge or Rising Karma on his wakeup will pretty much ensure that no armored or invincible moves will move him out, and he won't get to use a breaker either so he's stuck in the corner still.



It's not really that simple though. That's like...I have Sub-Zero cornered, and he has armor on EX slide, so do I stop pressuring him because of the terrifying EX slide? No, I just make sure I continue pressuring him in other ways (D3, D1xxSpirit Charge) where his armor isn't going to scare me anymore.
Lol at comparing anything Sub can do to an EX dash that combos you and puts you in a reset.
 

Under_The_Mayo

Master of Quanculations
Kabal up close is scary for Kenshi because of Kabal's 2NDC block inf, though, like Hippo said, d1 xx charge helps here.

Everything Hippo said is true...this match comes down to positioning. To keep you away, Kabal has to remain fullscreen, but his zoning is slowly sending him to the corner if that's all he does. Kabal doesn't want to be cornered by Kenshi because it forces Kabal to guess an EX ND out or wait until he can air breaker. If the Kenshi player isn't stupid, Kabal will never get to breaker out...and then that limits Kabal to guessing.

Also, why is teleflurry always being brought up? THE MOVE IS USELESS IN CERTAIN MATCHUPS. This is one of them. Kenshi can play without it.

Again, you guys severely underestimate the importance of positioning and how much it does change everything. Kabal, realistically, isn't keeping Kenshi fullscreen and has to come up to make sure he doesn't put himself in a bad spot. This 7-3 nonsense is people not trying to adjust. Reptile players took the Mileena matchup, grinded it out, and it is now not so bad of a matchup anymore. Why can't it be done here?

Fact is, I don't even think Kenshi players abuse Kenshi's strongest attributes. His footsies are the best in the game, and most Kenshis I see want to play the character fullscreen.
If just talking about all the little ways you can do with big handicaps, maybe we should tell Sonya and SubZero how they can beat Kabal and then say it's in their favor because Kabal has to be cautious of one of two of their moves.
 

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
Why are you guys arguing about this?

Just put your skills where you mouths are and prove it against a top player w video

You will have as much success as a democrat has convincing a republican to be democrat
 

Under_The_Mayo

Master of Quanculations
I'm done posting here. If the representatives of the Kenshi community, Teef and myself since August, and Blakula since the Fall, come on here and breakdown why this match isn't in our favor, just to have other people say we're dumb and blind, there's nothing more we can do. Peace.
 

Briggs8417

Salt Proprietor of TYM
I'm done posting here. If the representatives of the Kenshi community, Teef and myself since August, and Blakula since the Fall, come on here and breakdown why this match isn't in our favor, just to have other people say we're dumb and blind, there's nothing more we can do. Peace.
I have heard teef say he thinks it's a 5-5, idk if he still feels that way though.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
The only thing I've really seen coming from you guys to put it in Kabal's favor is that his keepaway is better and he can armor out the corner. What me and Hippo are saying is that, while that may be true, Kabal still has match-defining consequences for attempting that stuff. That really, to me, draws the matchup in Kenshi's favor if anything.
 

davidovitch

In Europe!
The only thing I've really seen coming from you guys to put it in Kabal's favor is that his keepaway is better and he can armor out the corner. What me and Hippo are saying is that, while that may be true, Kabal still has match-defining consequences for attempting that stuff. That really, to me, draws the matchup in Kenshi's favor if anything.
Maybe you just have to experience it to really get it, but the matchup is just really tough. Just from Kabal's zoning alone it feels like an uphill battle. You're dash-blocking into fireballs and buzzsaws which builds Kabal meter and does chip damage. And by the time you do get close to Kabal his tools there are just as good, if not better than Kenshi's. Kenshi does have high damage combo's but Kabal will usually be able to breaker out of them.
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
Why are you guys arguing about this?

Just put your skills where you mouths are and prove it against a top player w video

You will have as much success as a democrat has convincing a republican to be democrat

Because matchup discussions are just for obviously shameless pandering to those who are on stream, regardless of how good they play the matchup or not. x)

If just talking about all the little ways you can do with big handicaps, maybe we should tell Sonya and SubZero how they can beat Kabal and then say it's in their favor because Kabal has to be cautious of one of two of their moves.
Sonya does not win because she clearly has almost 0 ways around IAGb aside from lowering her hitbox with D4, and that is not exactly a quick poke. She has no space controlling move nearly as good as Spirit Charge, is even more prone to armoring through strings then Kenshi and doesn't have the ways to control breaker like Kenshi does. Johnny Cage has the same issue.

The things they can do are not effective, and there's the issue. What Kenshi can do in this matchup is very effective and can stop Kabal from doing what he loves to do. That's all. No need to be snippy and sarcastic about it just have a different perspective on the issue.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Dave, this is one of the times REO really isn't trolling.

david, about Kabal breaking Kenshi's combo, Kenshi shouldn't be doing combos that can be broken in the air. He can very effectively eliminate Kabal abusing air breaker to escape the corner.
 

xxteefxx

Kenshi Moderator
Eating Popcorn*

Very interesting .......watch it guys, i am a mod here! ROFL......i dont wanna delete posts :p
but hey....guess what? i got a surprise!

are u guys aware of who is AC1984 ?
simon is a great champ in UMK3 and won several tournaments too.....he's into mk9 as well! a great MK player indeed. and an old one like me too! arcade sticks FTW!
to get to the point, here are some matches of Kenshi vs Kabal....and by the way, i shall fully explain the matchup soon! just be patient!
me and piggy promised not to reveal any of kenshi's trick until FR!! especially for Piggy....cause i am kinda quiting MK actually, and FR is the last tourney i will attend for MK9 (very possible)...reason is to focus on school

but anyways, enjoy.

PS: King hippo...i am sorry, but i have to tell u this! it really seems u dont know kenshi much as u might sound like. i dont mean to be a douche! i apologize, but ur reasoning on how and why are REALLY weak! shall explain later. but hey! everyone have his rights to talk about their approach.,.....so u did nothing wrong :) but again, this is not a Kenshi Favor PERIOD!! unless someone prove me otherwise!!
and that a bit! i am willing to take/pay as well....up to 100 bucks :p lol





enjoy

EDIT: by the way....AC1984 just placed 9th @ winter brawl!! just fyi!
 

xxteefxx

Kenshi Moderator
Also i can agree it MIGHT!!! it CAN!! hit 5 - 5....though Rep was the only one who was able to beat My kenshi to be honest. the last we played couple of matches at VSM ..... he won 6 and i was only able to win 3. and i felt like he was sandbagging as well haha...and same here, both of us were just chillin.

but still....i would say this is a 5.5 - 4.5 kabal favor....worst case scenario, 5 - 5

to high light some stuff


-kenshi doesnt have the fastest walking speed in the game!!! period
-Max range SC is not - 6 ....please dont give out false frame data
-Kabal corner escape is not Breaker ONLY!!! and on wake up it will be armor vs ARMOR!! ....are u aware of this?? of ur getting hit by Kenshi's armor while kabal doin his Dash armor, then simply be smart and try to absorb kenshi's armor first!!! it's armor vs armor, both have the SAME!! exact effect due to the dash in speed from kabal.....thats just an FYI*
also there's something called EX saw and regular saw nullyfying any of the nonsense corner game mentioned above from kenshi (sc and RK non armor)
-Kabal HIMSELF!! has a vareity of options upclose!! so it's a complete 5 - 5 gamble from both


again....matchup chart really depends on a lot of facts! so it's a massive BS argument haha.....i would say no need to fight over things guys, screw it!

PS: this is the reason why i dont post a lot! lol...people ALWAYS have to put their nose and then shit starts to get smelly.....and then the nose gets bigger, and all the bougars and hair will miss the place up!!! takes a while to clean!!

have no idea wtf i just said ! O_O lol
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
You say I have weak reasoning and then you post the same argument of Kabal having to armor out? C'mon man, I'm not trying to start anything either but that's weak if anything.

That's a guess more or less (As is all frame data in this game), but c'mon, Kabal has nothing but the grace of his D1 to punish Spirit Charge, and if he guesses armor.

You are right, Saw does have invincible wakeup properties...but if you get hit with it in the corner, you're not losing your ground either. So you take a little damage, his back is still to the wall, right?
 

Death

Warrior
Yeah i think Simon knows the Kenshi MU really well. I was under the impression that Kabal was 6-4 over kenshi?
 

AC1984

Kaballin!
I wont say any numbers like 5-5 or all that mumbo jumbo....I'd just say that kenshi in the right hands,with the proper meter management will destroy most Kabal players. He has a lot of tools and tricks to do that. I am still working on my personal experience against him but from what I've seen, the match can go both ways easily.