Match-up Discussion Joker Matchup Discussion

[StevoSuprem0]

Yeah, muscle memory is tough to shake for me as well .
Got that combo up to 43% btw. j3, d2 xx teeth, d1, d1 xx mid teeth (slow ones), 32 xx teeth, 3 xx flower, 3 xx flower. You can also remove the last 3 xx flower for a super, but it's only 48%, so not worth the 5% ever lol. Need to figure out what the other options are from this combo though, like optimal crowbar enders, teeth setups, etc.

 

[Fromundaman]

Can you get 3>flower>MB Crowbar?

I will definitely mess with that when I get back. Also on the 32 are you doing 1 or 2 slashes?

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Can you get 3>flower>MB Crowbar?

I will definitely mess with that when I get back. Also on the 32 are you doing 1 or 2 slashes?

One slash.
The scaling is pretty absurd, so I'm not sure a crowbar is possible without significantly shortening the combo in some ways. 1 xx crowbar MIGHT work, but i kinda doubt it.

 

[Fromundaman]

Damn, I was hoping you could crowbar them on the way up from teeth (it's how I make 21>MB BF3 work in the other combo I posted in the other thread).

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Damn, I was hoping you could crowbar them on the way up from teeth (it's how I make 21>MB BF3 work in the other combo I posted in the other thread).

It's possible, but I kinda doubt it based on the scaling. Catching them with that last 3 xx flower is already really tight. But I'll certainly try it.

 

[Fromundaman]

Otherwise, test if maybe you can end it on D2>Teeth for a fast restand on top of teeth?

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Otherwise, test if maybe you can end it on D2>Teeth for a fast restand on top of teeth?

Yeah definitely will work. People at the break have caught on to that one though . Somewhat, at least.

 

[Fromundaman]

Okay cool. Well, now that I know it works I may have to pull that gimmick off on people at my locals XD

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Qwark28's footage from Epic Fights, fighting a Superman, Sinestro, Nightwing, and Batman:
http://www.twitch.tv/zaelock/b/488895403

 

[Qwark28]

Today was horrible. I lost to my own stupidity. If I checked the buttons and someone didn't alter the 1 preset then I would've taken the first game easy, I know Ditto doesn't know how to block teeth b13 and he hesitated for a sec before I found out by fucking buttons don't work.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Today was horrible. I lost to my own stupidity. If I checked the buttons and someone didn't alter the 1 preset then I would've taken the first game easy, I know Ditto doesn't know how to block teeth b13 and he hesitated for a sec before I found out by fucking buttons don't work.

Lol I went back in the video and saw you with the preset open and release check on during the button check and was like "he plays with release check? weird...". That sucks man.
That second round, though, Ditto went on a pretty nasty run in the corner. I didn't know Sinestro could do half of that lol.

 

[Qwark28]

Lol I went back in the video and saw you with the preset open and release check on during the button check and was like "he plays with release check? weird...". That sucks man.
That second round, though, Ditto went on a pretty nasty run in the corner. I didn't know Sinestro could do half of that lol.

Βy the time it was fixed I already gave up, this was my last game before elimination, in a 7-3 matchup and I just gave away a free loss. Still hate watching the corner B1 teeth setup where S3 came out instead of B1 which would've broke through the MB B3

This tournament taught me a lot though, mostly from watching how I did in MK9. Now I've discovered a few more things and some better logic in the Sinestro/Zod/Aquaman matchup.

 

[Qwark28]

What I also learned is that if you can take on players but then be unable to attend casuals for a month, you may find a few nasty surprises. Like people learning how to deal with Joker from month old footage of only 3-4 games.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Lol yup. What's your new logic for Sinestro/Zod/Aquaman?

 

[Qwark28]

Lol yup. What's your new logic for Sinestro/Zod/Aquaman?

Still working on it. Forgot to add wonderwoman too. It has more to do with a change in jumping and general footsies when they're up close instead of farther away and taking advantage of lifeleads mostly.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Are we playing charades or discussing strategies?

 

[Qwark28]

I'll discuss my strategies when they're ready to be discussed, not when they're still bits and pieces. If I happen to play a good Aquaman online for a few days, Nivek/Foxy offline/online and maybe M2dave a bit more than these matchups may in the end be just 4-6 with some careful play.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

I'll discuss my strategies when they're ready to be discussed, not when they're still bits and pieces. If I happen to play a good Aquaman online for a few days, Nivek/Foxy offline/online and maybe M2dave a bit more than these matchups may in the end be just 4-6 with some careful play.

I think Wonder Woman and Sinestro are 4-6. Aquaman I'm still pegging at a 7-3. Zod I have pegged somewhere inbetween. Need more experience to make a good estimate.

 

[Qwark28]

I think Wonder Woman and Sinestro are 4-6. Aquaman I'm still pegging at a 7-3. Zod I have pegged somewhere inbetween. Need more experience to make a good estimate.

I have Sinestro 7-3 only if he gets the trait.

Zod is probably 7-3, I've played pig, dave and a local Zod player, need to play this MU for a few more weeks and find a way to exploit his zoning holes and up close game.

For WW I've played Foxy and Nivek since launch, matchup is pretty bad but if we get a lifelead then I think it becomes 4-6.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

I have Sinestro 7-3 only if he gets the trait.

Zod is probably 7-3, I've played pig, dave and a local Zod player, need to play this MU for a few more weeks and find a way to exploit his zoning holes and up close game.

For WW I've played Foxy and Nivek since launch, matchup is pretty bad but if we get a lifelead then I think it becomes 4-6.

Yeah Sinestro with trait is shitty for everyone, but without it he's pretty manageable once you get decent at fuzzy guarding the vortex.
Zod I have played Pig a little, and Relaxedstate a couple times (who's Zod is pretty comparable in alot of ways), as well as a friend at home that is pretty solid with him. It's all about blocking correctly when his trait is out, which is very tough when he's in your face but pretty easy when he's full screen, and as you said, exploiting his zoning tools. I find gun to be pretty proficient at counterzoning. Sidearm gives me a lot more problems than the balls.
I play with KDZ a ton and he plays a very good WW. My approach to that matchup is playing mind games with the gunshot at fullscreen, using preemptive teeth when she's just outside range for that overhead lasso move, and being smart about jumping because her d2 is retarded. Face to face, its difficult because of her mixup options, but I'm decent with fuzzy guards and spacing to get around alot of stuff.

 

[Qwark28]

Yeah Sinestro with trait is shitty for everyone, but without it he's pretty manageable once you get decent at fuzzy guarding the vortex.
Zod I have played Pig a little, and Relaxedstate a couple times (who's Zod is pretty comparable in alot of ways), as well as a friend at home that is pretty solid with him. It's all about blocking correctly when his trait is out, which is very tough when he's in your face but pretty easy when he's full screen, and as you said, exploiting his zoning tools. I find gun to be pretty proficient at counterzoning. Sidearm gives me a lot more problems than the balls.
I play with KDZ a ton and he plays a very good WW. My approach to that matchup is playing mind games with the gunshot at fullscreen, using preemptive teeth when she's just outside range for that overhead lasso move, and being smart about jumping because her d2 is retarded. Face to face, its difficult because of her mixup options, but I'm decent with fuzzy guards and spacing to get around alot of stuff.

I've seen that KDZ plays a decent wowo but it's just his great fundamentals, he plays nothing like F0xy or Nivek who have been 100% on her since launch and developed her together

She has no mixups when she pressures you, just actual pressure, you can interrupt anything off of her + strings except D12 which will always catch you, pressure doesn't end there though because IIRC she's -1 and actually in perfect B1 whiff punish range if you try to move outside fo D2. Her actual mixups begin after a F3 knockdown or a lasso knockdown in the corner, I'm still working on correctly fuzzy guarding after the F3.

Blocking Zod trait is not easy fullscreen, that's when the pure 50-50 starts, it's not fuzzy guardable at all because he can cancel his dashes into trait at any given frame time or he can just instantly MB his low laser below you instead of cancelling them into dash trait. Up close is supposed to be the "easy" with such a braindead trait, blocking.

Why would Sinestro do the vortex instead of putting you fullscreen and charging/fake charging? This is one of the reasons why I think it is 6-4, because Sinestro has no great mobility or something safe to throw out.

Zod will probably remain 7-3 the way I see it, chip like Raven's, mixups like WoWos on knockdown, superior zoning, but what hurts the most is his close up game and backdash, so good mobility and such safe hit confirmable strings make this matchup probably still a much dick such suck situation.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

I've seen that KDZ plays a decent wowo but it's just his great fundamentals, he plays nothing like F0xy or Nivek who have been 100% on her since launch and developed her together

She has no mixups when she pressures you, just actual pressure, you can interrupt anything off of her + strings except D12 which will always catch you, pressure doesn't end there though because IIRC she's -1 and actually in perfect B1 whiff punish range if you try to move outside fo D2. Her actual mixups begin after a F3 knockdown or a lasso knockdown in the corner, I'm still working on correctly fuzzy guarding after the F3.

Yeah, she is very plus most of the time when she's in your face. I'm still working on breaking that down; Joker can be too if played a certain way, but we don't have anything fast that opens people up consistently since 1,1 is duckable and d1 doesn't cancel into RLG. I'm having pretty decent success at keeping her out though. KDZ is alot better at abusing her tiara than Foxy and Nivek from what I've seen, and has a lot of other ideas with her that he's been working with that they aren't abusing yet either, so we'll see where things end up. Currently, he claims that she is the best character in the game. I disagree with him on that point, but we'll see in the coming months. I just don't feel as trapped in this matchup as I do in some others; I feel like I can dictate the pace at times, which is huge.

Blocking Zod trait is not easy fullscreen, that's when the pure 50-50 starts, it's not fuzzy guardable at all because he can cancel his dashes into trait at any given frame time or he can just instantly MB his low laser below you instead of cancelling them into dash trait. Up close is supposed to be the "easy" with such a braindead trait, blocking.

This I disagree with. I'm very consistent at blocking the fullscreen mixup. It's a little harder online, but as long as you just keep an eye on Zod, I do the following: if you see him start lasers, block low; if he dash cancels, switch to high (there is plenty of time to react between the dash animation and the 5f startup or whatever it is); if you see lasers start up again, switch back to blocking low. I block it correctly about 80-90% of the time I believe. I think you can punish blocked trait grab with gunshot as well. He actually bugs me alot more up close with trait out... those mixups are a LOT harder to react to and I just feel like I'm shifting my thumb around and hoping for the best; this is where I may need more experience though.

Why would Sinestro do the vortex instead of putting you fullscreen and charging/fake charging? This is one of the reasons why I think it is 6-4, because Sinestro has no great mobility or something safe to throw out.

Abusing the fullscreen game is great and obviously his general strategy, but once you successfully close the gap, he would be stupid not to abuse potential kiss-of-death shenanigans that the vortex is. We knock him on his ass and he's in trouble, but his footsies with the b12 buff are safe and pretty amazing now (he can hit confirm into shackles to start the vortex, or just be safe on block. I would agree that it is 6-4 though. Anyone that struggles to wake up safely has the potential to struggle against Joker.

Zod will probably remain 7-3 the way I see it, chip like Raven's, mixups like WoWos on knockdown, superior zoning, but what hurts the most is his close up game and backdash, so good mobility and such safe hit confirmable strings make this matchup probably still a much dick such suck situation.

Yup, I agree. I think his zoning is manageable if you are smart about it, but you're still gonna be taking a lot of chip to close the gap if you're down on life. Up close, his mixups are ridiculous. Also, his ability to control interactable usage and the pace of the match in general makes him insane.

 

[Qwark28]

Yeah, she is very plus most of the time when she's in your face. I'm still working on breaking that down; Joker can be too if played a certain way, but we don't have anything fast that opens people up consistently since 1,1 is duckable and d1 doesn't cancel into RLG. I'm having pretty decent success at keeping her out though. KDZ is alot better at abusing her tiara than Foxy and Nivek from what I've seen, and has a lot of other ideas with her that he's been working with that they aren't abusing yet either, so we'll see where things end up. Currently, he claims that she is the best character in the game. I disagree with him on that point, but we'll see in the coming months. I just don't feel as trapped in this matchup as I do in some others; I feel like I can dictate the pace at times, which is huge.


This I disagree with. I'm very consistent at blocking the fullscreen mixup. It's a little harder online, but as long as you just keep an eye on Zod, I do the following: if you see him start lasers, block low; if he dash cancels, switch to high (there is plenty of time to react between the dash animation and the 5f startup or whatever it is); if you see lasers start up again, switch back to blocking low. I block it correctly about 80-90% of the time I believe. I think you can punish blocked trait grab with gunshot as well. He actually bugs me alot more up close with trait out... those mixups are a LOT harder to react to and I just feel like I'm shifting my thumb around and hoping for the best; this is where I may need more experience though.


Abusing the fullscreen game is great and obviously his general strategy, but once you successfully close the gap, he would be stupid not to abuse potential kiss-of-death shenanigans that the vortex is. We knock him on his ass and he's in trouble, but his footsies with the b12 buff are safe and pretty amazing now (he can hit confirm into shackles to start the vortex, or just be safe on block. I would agree that it is 6-4 though. Anyone that struggles to wake up safely has the potential to struggle against Joker.


Yup, I agree. I think his zoning is manageable if you are smart about it, but you're still gonna be taking a lot of chip to close the gap if you're down on life. Up close, his mixups are ridiculous. Also, his ability to control interactable usage and the pace of the match in general makes him insane.

VS wowo the only way you should ever be getting control is via a very good lifelead and hope that she never knocks you down, I don't mean offense to KDZ but a 9 month wowo cannot be compared to a 1 month tertiary one, it's like people hoping to be good with Joker as a secondary when people who use him as mains haven't quite made him work properly. I do hope KDZ fully picks her up since the US needs a real wowo and her playstyle should be right up his alley. And WW IS the best character in the game, people just don't know it yet. Nobody listens to foxy/europe.

Man, it seriously fucking sucks when your D1 is so fucking useless, you can't even do d1 crowbar because if it's blocked then you're getting full comboed before crowbar comes out, d1 flower does no damage and no worthy setups either.

Sinestro doesn't want to be close, up close we have the advantage since nothing he does is ever safe, if he guesses wrong in the vortex then we start pressure. Wound had said that he doesn't like the vortex because of that reason, no trait building, no significant damage and if it's blocked then we're in business. B12 if blocked is -5 so he should only be able to just frame backdash which we should be able to J3 d1/b1 flower for 22% or just take the pressure, up close nothing he does is + or 0 on block which is awesome.

IDK about the fullscreen laser/bite mixup, he can cancel his dash at any point and trait grab is like 5f, anything within 17f is unreactable as a mixup but maybe if you react to the movement, idk. I don't get caught by it much but whenever I try to fuzzy the grab I get caught, might just be online. Up close mixups are not that good tbh, he really can't cancel anything fast enough for it to be a mixup if you know his mixup setups. Bite isn't punishable even from point blank with gunshot, -13 I think. The chip is what matters most, this matchup is worse than Sinestro, his footsies are safe, lead more damage and setups than Sinestro's, chip on the way in is HUGE, he's always got meter and the trait's a nightmare.

TBH I think Joker cannot afford to frametrap outside the corner, when your opponent cannot backdash then we can lay down teeth from normals and do some nice setups.

 

[Qwark28]

One thing I want to implement with WW is not moving, this actually applies to most matchups, I want to practice not moving and pressing buttons only when my opponent does something stupid. Before the tournament, my thoughts were on the WW matchup and I thought that if WW has evolved to where her corner game isn't that different than her midscreen game, there's no downside almost if you just back off constantly. Her mixups only work off of knockdowns but if you block properly and know when to backdash then you will not be opened up, she has no threat outside a point blank 33/b2/throw so she will not chip you out, you can hold the life lead. You should rarely jump at her but jump 3 as a defense, she shouldn't control the air game within jump distance, if she dashes just D2 close teeth/B1 flower. In the corner she can only approach via dash or jump, otherwise she will not open you up, she can't b2 you to death if you just wait for her to make a move, dash you punish, jump you D2/dash under/J3.

I really need to play this more, even though I lost to BS in my last tournament, just one match down to the wire taught me so much, like the question people ask " why do I lose to doomsday? Just block" I need to start implementing that for real, Joker with godlike patience can be so damn defensive. haven't been this excited on exploring Joker in months. Just need to get my stick ready this week and practice.

Maybe Joker just needs the lifelead and then instead of attacking to land a corner carry combo he should walk himself to the corner.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Yeah I've been experimenting with that a bit as well, putting myself in the corner when I have the lifelead and am just laming my opponent out. One touch and you can switch places with them easily to get the setups going, which at least puts most of the cast in a guessing game that's heavily in our favor.

In the DD matchup I really like to start out with option select parries when he has all the venom and d1 xx earthshaker pressure going. Once they see that, it becomes a guessing game for them; one way is either we parry for 11% or they d1 shaker for... what, 15-20%? and the other is them stalling and catching us for the same damage, or us reading that and getting pressure or a big combo. I don't mind those odds, and I find it pretty easy to read DDs alot of the time. I also think our parry is awesome for reacting to venom at good enough spacing. Of course, then he's just gonna dash in, but that sets us up to get pressure if he gets too close off the dashes. I don't mind this matchup too much. Just need to be patient and really exploit the openings.

I'm not trying to compare KDZ's WW to foxy/nivek, just saying he's solid and the basis for my MU experience. I agree with your assertion that this matchup is all about the spacing. Full screen we can use gunshot in several ways to keep her out, once she gets closer we just need to switch to laying teeth and being more reflexive to how she reacts to stuff like that. D2/b1/instant j3's are important for keeping her honest and stopping her advance, totally agree. And yeah, jumping is bad against her... that d2 is godlike.

I agree that sinestro doesn't WANT to be up close, I'm just saying he has options when he is and they certainly aren't bad. And if he guesses right, he can choose to put you full screen again at any time. Must be nice to have options like that... *sigh*.

Yeah, I think you are struggling more with the fullscreen Zod mixup because of online. It's definitely harder in the lag. But I think he is terrifying when he's in your face too man. He has 50/50's for days there, with the advancing low starter and that downward breath thing, either of which can be either that for a low option or a trait grab for overhead, all of which leading to over 40% and you at fullscreen again, with trait halfway recharged... UGH lol. I might be wrong though, and it may all be reactable/fuzzy-able. I've only fought one Zod that did the close up game well so far, so I have less experience. But yeah, definitely worse than Sinestro lol, no arguments there whatsoever.