Match-up Discussion Johnny Cage: Official Matchup Discussion

[crosstalk]

Dizzy, I have a lot of vs Cage experience because Cage is Master D.'s strongest character after Kabal. I think Cage vs Freddy is even. Freddy may have a slight advantage, but I do not believe this slight advantage translates to 6:4. Perhaps 5.5:4.5 is most appropriate at the moment. Obviously, Cage is the most explosive character up close, but Freddy is the best zoning character in the game.

Even the best zoning characters struggle vs Cage at mid range because of f+3 and b+3. Freddy is an exception because NMS (Nightmare Stance) is basically a small backdash that automatically puts Freddy in a crouching position. NMS also leads to a safe 50/50 mix up. Because Cage does not have an advancing special move that hits mid aside from EX shadow kick, zoning and meter building with NMS is too easy vs Cage. That is why Freddy may have a slight advantage. EX teleport (mid screen) and EX sweet dreams (corner) are not the best "get off me" moves, but I would still take them over nothing vs Cage. It sucks when you have to block even more after EX forceball (as Mileena and Noob, for example).

I got blown up by a pretty decent Freddy on PSN (ALL_I_DO_IS_SPAM I think his tag was). He did a lot of NMS and I just didn't have an answer for it. Can he be full combo punished during NMS?

Playpal, those are some good points. Morty and Foxy have the matchup at 5-5, although Morty listed this back in August so his opinion has probably changed since then. Perhaps the Sonya matchup requires more discussion.

 

[M2Dave]

I got blown up by a pretty decent Freddy on PSN (ALL_I_DO_IS_SPAM I think his tag was). He did a lot of NMS and I just didn't have an answer for it. Can he be full combo punished during NMS?

Freddy cannot block while in NMS. But if the Freddy player uses the stance at the right distance, what is Cage going to do? Freddy is crouching, so the regular shadow kick is worthless. If you jump, you get hit by NMS, 1. If you walk forward, you put yourself in a 50/50 mix up situation. NMS, 3 is a low attack while NMS, 2 is an overhead. If you need to get hit by something to get in, get hit by the low because it leads to no set ups. I believe Cage's best bet is to block any attack from NMS and do f+3. I do not think Freddy can re-enter NMS, low poke, jump back, etc. You can also try to bait an attack from NMS and whiff punish with b+3. Keep in mind, though, that Freddy has access to all specials moves while in NMS, and NMS xx glove is particularly strong vs Cage.

By the way, something that very few people know is that Cage can actually punish mid spikes with shadow kick as long as you are fast. Close spike is punishable by f+3 and b+3.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

at the right distance... can JC react to NMS with a f4? I'm sure freddy can quickly do a move... but wouldn't it have to be premeditated for it to beat out the f4 kick?

 

[salvificblood]

Do remember that Sub's fastest poke is 7 frames and his d1 is at negative 6 even on hit, lmao, so while his pokes are fast enough to escape the Cage if timed right, any hesitation and... blown up. Sub vs Cage is more a 5-5 because Cage can actually turtle Sub and since Cage makes 2 whiff while crouch blocking, err... yeah, Sub-Zero better not ever lose the lifelead. He cannot machine gun d4 Cage; Cage can whiff punish everything Sub does, Sub can't really whiff punish Cage with anything other than a slide so the footsies game is probably easier with Cage.

Shocker I know, but true. When I think about it, I don't know why I even think of this matchup as a good one at all for Sub-Zero. The ice clone is just good at prolonging the rounds, really.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I dont' even use 2,1 against small hit box anymore. 2,2 on block is like -6 I think... so I can hesitate and clone after that. also... d1 being negative is good... you can cancel clone right after.

I agree that it is a 6-4 at the highest level. Johnny Cage has to work much harder than Sub Zero to get that life lead. I've had no trouble with simply walking down JC and 2,2 at about the same time the clone would shatter. That tactic def. helps keep JC at an arms length and daring him to Jump in or do something foolish.

 

[salvificblood]

I dont' even use 2,1 against small hit box anymore. 2,2 on block is like -6 I think... so I can hesitate and clone after that. also... d1 being negative is good... you can cancel clone right after.

I agree that it is a 6-4 at the highest level. Johnny Cage has to work much harder than Sub Zero to get that life lead. I've had no trouble with simply walking down JC and 2,2 at about the same time the clone would shatter. That tactic def. helps keep JC at an arms length and daring him to Jump in or do something foolish.

How is d1 being negative good? It means the only thing I can do after I poke out is ice clone.

If you're playing Johnny Cage's who just stand by the clone waiting for it to disappear, with no footsies and whatnot, sure, you can just walk up to the clone and 22. How does that help if Johnny Cage is not just standing there like an idiot? 22 is negative 6 on block, and that is the crucial part, it is terrible on whiff, lol. If I whiff 22's, I am dead. I will sometimes just dial in 224 just to try and stop him whiff punishing 22, but if he waits that out, it's even worse.

It isn't 6-4 at the highest level, in my opinion. It's 6-4 or 7-3 Sub-Zero at the intermediate level, at the highest level I think the matchup slightly favours Cage. And no, he does not have to work harder for a lifelead. You cloning is a free red kick and you have to clone or he will f3 you because there's no way in hell you're jumping at Cage and getting away with it.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

d1 being negative leaves to inputs that normally wouldn't come out. d1~clone catches everything, especially because of clone not having proximity to d3 or d4.

I never said JC would stand anywhere... if he walks back... i walk with him. He can use the red kick, it doesn't change what i'm going to do. Walk him to the corner, make him make a mistake. Whether it is mid screen or in the corner, he has to take a risk eventually. I'm good losing a round as long as it ends in him in the corner.

2,2 is his best tool in this matchup to hurt Cage. If you aren't making cage work for damage (outside of red kick) then you aren't being patient enough.
The more I think about it... 4.5-5.5 is probably more accurate. Slight advantage for Sub having an EASIER time turtling Cage with a life lead.

 

[Dizzy]

Sub's D4 is actually excellent at keeping cage out. You don't need to "machine gun it". If cage tries to f3 when there is no ice clone on screen, he risks a chance of sub deciding to throw out an ice clone for the hell of it. Good subs don't hide behind their clone when fighting cage, they try to bait cage into doing something while there is no clone on the screen. Sub is most dangerous when he does not have clone out, and most sub players don't realize it.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Sub's D4 is actually excellent at keeping cage out. You don't need to "machine gun it". If cage tries to f3 when there is no ice clone on screen, he risks a chance of sub deciding to throw out an ice clone for the hell of it. Good subs don't hide behind their clone when fighting cage, they try to bait cage into doing something while there is no clone on the screen. Sub is most dangerous when he does not have clone out, and most sub players don't realize it.

I consider this part of "walking him down". I get so narrow minded with my explanations sometimes.

 

[salvificblood]

Sub's D4 is actually excellent at keeping cage out. You don't need to "machine gun it". If cage tries to f3 when there is no ice clone on screen, he risks a chance of sub deciding to throw out an ice clone for the hell of it. Good subs don't hide behind their clone when fighting cage, they try to bait cage into doing something while there is no clone on the screen. Sub is most dangerous when he does not have clone out, and most sub players don't realize it.

Proximity becomes the main issue. Of course Sub is at his most cerebral when he's playing footsies with the possibility of cloning but the point is, he can't wait for you to f3 and then clone because the clone won't come out and he will get hit. If he clones early, that's fine because he can't beat Cage like that. Sub-Zero will not win with d4 and ice clone. Cage will eventually get over the d4 and crush Sub for it, just due to the fact Sub cannot be aggressive against Cage; Cage's strings outprioritise Sub's and when you combine that with the fact 2 whiffs on Cage while he's crouch blocking, Sub really struggles to get damage himself. What's he going to do? Get a lucky slide? It's pretty retarded.

Sub_crash 4, please play a Cage who has good footsies because you're loading the problems onto me as the player as though it's my fault, but all my points about this matchup are character based. It has nothing to do with patience. You can be as patient as you like, a round is 90 seconds long... It's a long time to hold a good Cage off with very limited offensive options of your own...

By the way, I asked Tom Brady ages ago about this matchup because I thought it was really tough for Sub and he now seems to be thinking along the same lines about the Sub, Cage matchup...

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Can someone please explain to me how Cage vs Kitana is in anyway shape or form in Cage's favor? That makes no sense at all. Any decent Kitana player will just jump backwards and throw fans all day, and square wave whenever Cage gets close. And Cage literally can't do anything.

And everybody's reply to this is always, "well, Cage can just life lead." I HATE when people say that. That's not DOING SOMETHING, that's just sitting there. If Kitana just jumps back and throws fans all day, and square waves whenever Cage gets close, what can Cage really do? That match-up cannot be in Cage's favor at all, somebody has some explaining to do lol

Nobody ever said its in his favour

I think its 5-5. You dont have to be doing something all the time to win in this game you know. I already did the explaining but people just dont seem to get it.

But that being said there are only 2 competitive Cage players out there that have actually placed anywhere in anything

Play pal, he dont have bad matchups against 1/3 of the cast, because only 3 characters can escape his blockstrings safely (KL,Sektor,Sonya). Its a matter of difficulty getting to them is all.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Sal i'm not trying to put things on you as a player. You seem to over exaggerate how good cage is in this matchup. Most of the time, its just a guess between both players feeling each other out. One mistake can be the round for both players. We can both agree on that?

 

[salvificblood]

Sal i'm not trying to put things on you as a player. You seem to over exaggerate how good cage is in this matchup. Most of the time, its just a guess between both players feeling each other out. One mistake can be the round for both players. We can both agree on that?

Read my comments again more carefully. There's honestly no exaggeration on my part. I am speaking about facts, not opinions. It's my opinion Cage has everything he needs to brutalise Sub-Zero with the right gameplan. I see nothing similar for sub-Zero outside of the corner, and Sub gets raped by Cage in the corner as much as he rapes Cage in the corner.

 

[crosstalk]

at the right distance... can JC react to NMS with a f4? I'm sure freddy can quickly do a move... but wouldn't it have to be premeditated for it to beat out the f4 kick?

My guess is that it's too slow, unless you bait it at the right distance. I'd probably do a b3 because it's much faster.

 

[ForeverKing]

Nobody ever said its in his favour

I think its 5-5. You dont have to be doing something all the time to win in this game you know. I already did the explaining but people just dont seem to get it.

But that being said there are only 2 competitive Cage players out there that have actually placed anywhere in anything

Play pal, he dont have bad matchups against 1/3 of the cast, because only 3 characters can escape his blockstrings safely (KL,Sektor,Sonya). Its a matter of difficulty getting to them is all.

I mean yeah you can just get more health than Kitana than wait for her to come to you, but that's almost just about it. I would say it has to be at least 7-3 Kitana, there are too many tools she has to control that match-up. But yeah, there were a few people that did say Cage wins that 6-4, which I do not understand those peoples' reasonings

 

[M2Dave]

at the right distance... can JC react to NMS with a f4? I'm sure freddy can quickly do a move... but wouldn't it have to be premeditated for it to beat out the f4 kick?

I don't think so. From my experience, the best strategy is to let Freddy corner himself because there is very little Cage can do vs NMS. Once you corner Freddy, go wild. Just be mindful of EX teleport and EX sweet dreams. You can actually throw EX teleport on start up. That is how you can make Freddy waste a meter if he keeps teleporting after your EX forceball traps. You can backdash (or forward dash) sweet dreams if you see it coming.

 

[crosstalk]

So far:

Playpal
Bad Matchups: Kabal, Kenshi, Kitana, Noob, Reptile, Sonya, and Sub-Zero

A F0xy Grampa
Bad Matchups: Sub-Zero, Kitana, Kenshi, Ermac, Reptile, Kabal, Skarlet

Dizzy
Bad Matchups: Kabal, Kitana, Kenshi, Noob, Reptile, Sub-Zero, Cyrax, Ermac

m2dave
Freddy may have a slight advantage (5.5-4.5)

 

[Dizzy]

I also believe cyrax and ermac are bad matchups. 6-4 in their favor. I just didn't bother elaborating on them.

Any other bad matchup proposed I commented on other than skarlet. I have never fought a skarlet

 

[crosstalk]

Dizzy, can you elaborate on the Cyrax matchup? I'm curious.

 

[Playpal]

I also believe cyrax and ermac are bad matchups. 6-4 in their favor. I just didn't bother elaborating on them.

Any other bad matchup proposed I commented on other than skarlet. I have never fought a skarlet

I'd also like you to explain how ermac is a bad match up. Right now i'm arguing in the ermac forums that it's not.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Saying that Cyrax will hurt you if he catches you applies for anybody, the matchups easily a 5-5 cause once cyrax gets caught by Cage he's equally as fucked. You dont have to guess with nets or bombs or anything.

 

[Dizzy]

Ugh. Fucking phone. I think I double or triple posted then tried to fix it and deleted too many of them. I wish someone had quoted me. Either way, I was saying his normals arnt terrible and he punishes a whiff with a 70 percent combo. Yes, saying if he catches you with a net applies for everyone, that's why he's considered top 5 by most everyone. You can't take absurd damage out of the equation just because it is universal. cage is one of the few matches cyrax can make his opponent come to him. You can't trade projectiles or turtle forver against cyrax.

 

[Dizzy]

Playpal

Ermac, in my opinion, is better in most ways than noob against cage. Max range push is not able to be punished by regular shadow kick. Even guessing from sweep range or further with it results in the risk of being hit with a 8 percent shadow kick and knocked full screen again, or the reward of 11 percent and knocking him full screen. You cannot just sit and block against ermac either, as he can dash throw or dash sweep, among other things. If the ermac sees you being keep to it, he can dash, end it early with block and punish your whiff with a push, as you attempt to tech the throw or poke him. The guessing game favors ermac and you have to guess right quite a few times otherwise you get knocked full screen again. Ermacs safe jk~airblast is very underutilized too, as it beats many AAs depending on spacing, and always beats d1.

 

[Playpal]

Dizzy I'm still having a hard time believing Ermac beats JC. Ermac's ability to keep out JC isn't as good as the other bad match ups I've listed. JC does more damage when he's up close than ermac when he's afar. Not to mention ermac is arguably more vulnerable to JC's pressure than most of the cast. Yes you can't do F33 ex force ball, but you can do 13 ex force ball and 11F1. You can do 11F1 on a crouch blocking ermac. He also doesn't have any armor. In the corner, ermac is just like any other character in the game, although probably easier because you have that 11F1. Also, just a random shadow kick is enough for ermac to respect it, even if it puts JC at a bad position. It's really fast and will punish TKP so long as he's not at max range. Yeah, the position shadow kick gives isn't ideal, but I can dash in while ermac's waking up and I'm pushing him into the corner. And again, ermac is not as good as others when it comes to keeping JC out.

 

[crosstalk]

This is true. Ermac can win the full screen game, and possibly the mid screen game, but what does he have up close? I would say the same for Cyrax too. Which of Cyrax's normals can beat out JC's normals, and what can he do to escape pressure?