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Match-up Discussion Johnny Cage: Official Matchup Discussion

Mikemetroid

Who hired this guy, WTF?
Once the guys over at Kombat Network upload the matches that were recorded at NECXII I can show you what NOT to do against Kenshi. I got OWNED because I just didn't know the match up for shit.
 

leek

Noob
Once the guys over at Kombat Network upload the matches that were recorded at NECXII I can show you what NOT to do against Kenshi. I got OWNED because I just didn't know the match up for shit.
sweet, thanks. I still struggle with this one..
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
Okay, I was getting some requests for my thoughts on the Kitana match up. I talked about it on the Kombat Tomb Podcast, but thought I would put it down in this thread too for reference.

I think this match up is 3-7 in Kitana's favor. I will go over the reasons for this.

Kitana's D1 is one of the best moves at keeping characters like Johnny Cage out, who have to use basic movement to get in. It out ranges all of Johnny's normals including D4, B3 and F3. If you think Kitana will D1 and you jump (this is very risky and I don't recommend it whatsoever) she will recover easily in time to block, sometimes even quick enough to D1 anti-air you. There is only two ways Johnny Cage can reasonably deal with D1 keeping his ground game out.

1) Punish D1 whiff with B3. This is something that will only work on Kitanas who are playing sloppy. Being a 6 frame move with incredible range, there is almost no reason to whiff with this. Not a solid strategy versus Kitanas with a good footsie game. You cannot whiff punish D1 the same way you can with other characters, like blowing people up who like to spam D1.

2) Punish D1 on block with B3. I should mention this is extremely hard to do. The window to punish this is small and very awkward/hard to time even on anticipation as the blockstun on D1 is only 1 frame. Doing this on reaction is nearly impossible, if not totally impossible. If react to the fact that you just blocked D1, it is already too late to be hitting B3. Even worse yet, against far/max range D1, if you fail to punish it in time your B3 will WHIFF letting kitana blow you up. In the event you hit this, it will launch kitana nearly 2/3 screen away so you cannot even get a max damage combo. You have to use dash 1, dash 1, dash 1, 44 nutpunch if you launch her with B3 from max range on a D1 punish.

It is possible to use F3 to give yourself a little more time to punish if the D1 is point blank, like if Kitana uses it to get out of pressure. Any further than point blank though, the follow up on F33 will whiff so you must use F32.

Kitana's F2,1 is very good. If thrown out very close, it cannot be walked away from. However, from around sweep distance, Johnny Cage can walk backwards and B3 whiff punish it. This is very useful, but Kitana should not be throwing out F2,1 strings randomly from far distances away. If they choose too, use the opportunity to whiff punish it.

Square boost. This move is what makes Kitana's runaway the best of anyone in the cast, in my opinion. It is only punishable with B3 when done extremely sloppily, about 3/4 screen away or further. It is punishable with shadow kick a little further, and EX shadow kick anywhere on the screen. EX shadow kick knocks the Kitana full screen again, costs one meter, and does 12% damage; not a very useful option in most circumstances. The quick startup makes this move fairly easy to throw out, and extremely good when canceled from moves such as F2. In a nutshell, this makes Kitana one of the hardest characters to keep cornered.

IAF is the glue that holds Kitana's keep away together. If she didn't have this, she would not be able to gain meter quickly, while keeping the opponent out and discouraging/punishing their jumps. She can mix up IAF with her other options such as D1 and F2,1 to keep you guessing. IAF beats everything Johnny Cage does unless he is point blank, aside from EX shadow kick which will often whiff unless you wait for the IAF to be thrown, which causes a 4% trade in your favor at the cost Kitana being knocked full screen again and one meter.
 

TrickyNick

Weather Man
Thanks dizzy any tips are appreciated. Ive learn more on the matchup as i go. Nice to know that pretty much b3 to punish a d1 is out of the question. Maybe not entierly but id rather go about it a different way. When I fight kitana ive got in the habit of using my ex nut punce if she is being to aggresive. Or just block d1 and punish with my own but in most cases she is to far away.
 

ForeverKing

Patreon.com/MK_ForeverKing
Can someone please explain to me how Cage vs Kitana is in anyway shape or form in Cage's favor? That makes no sense at all. Any decent Kitana player will just jump backwards and throw fans all day, and square wave whenever Cage gets close. And Cage literally can't do anything.

And everybody's reply to this is always, "well, Cage can just life lead." I HATE when people say that. That's not DOING SOMETHING, that's just sitting there. If Kitana just jumps back and throws fans all day, and square waves whenever Cage gets close, what can Cage really do? That match-up cannot be in Cage's favor at all, somebody has some explaining to do lol
 

ForeverKing

Patreon.com/MK_ForeverKing
Kitana- 6/4
Didn't see that lol. somethings wrong there. I didn't even look at the first page my bad.
It's all good. Some people still actually do believe that though, which I don't understand. I myself am a Johnny Cage player, and I have the hardest time playing against Kitana and Kabal with him

That MU chart was made a long time ago.
I would hope so lol. Lot of them look wrong
 

TrickyNick

Weather Man
Yea i have the most trouble with kitana and reptile myself. Seems like even if i play a really good kabal that instant air fireballs consisently its difficult but eventually he backs him self in a corner while im advancing. He breakers when i get ahold of him and it repeats lol. Id rather him breaker then have the meter and make me respect a ex nomad dash between strings.

If you have some tips on the reptile matchup that be great
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
Thanks dizzy any tips are appreciated. Ive learn more on the matchup as i go. Nice to know that pretty much b3 to punish a d1 is out of the question. Maybe not entierly but id rather go about it a different way. When I fight kitana ive got in the habit of using my ex nut punce if she is being to aggresive. Or just block d1 and punish with my own but in most cases she is to far away.
One of the major problems with using D1 to punish kitanas D1 is that it will normally whiff due to pushback. If the kitana is keen to it, they can blow up your D1 whiff with F2,1 because of peoples natural tendency to use D1 to punish the opponents D1 on block. Against kitana you really have to stop your natural instinct to D1 punish on reaction to D1 being blocked.
 
So who do you guys think are definitely bad matchups for Cage? For me, I'd say Kabal, Kitana, and Kenshi for obvious reasons. I feel like Reptile is slightly in Reptile's favor, but not a 7-3 matchup as stated. The Sub-Zero match could go either way, depending on how either player approaches one another and when they apply pressure. I've seen some saying Sonya may be a bad matchup, but I'm not very experienced in this match so I'm unsure. Her armored cartwheel is definitely a threat when applying pressure, and her d4 is really good for spacing. Not to mention she beats him fullscreen, and her close range game is pretty damn good.
 
Kabal, kenshi, kitana, noob saibot, reptile, sonya and sub zero are all undoubtedly bad MUs imo. Most can zone out JC and make it very tough to get in. I'd include Freddy but I don't know the MU. Sonya's probably the only one who doesn't need to zone to win. She builds meter like a beast and has the best defensive tool in the game: ex cartwheel. I've played lots of Sonyas recently (my set with gamerblake is in the video thread) and it's very hard to get much block strings without eventually being interrupted. JC just has to work harder. Coincidentally, Sonya's probably the only character in the game where ex shadow kick is useless full screen; do it too early and you'll lose armor and get hit by the ring, do it too late and you'll get blocked.

Reptile's another one who's zoning isn't the main annoyance for JC (although it can be). His hitbox is unique in that you can't do F33 ex force ball mid screen and F33B3 ex force ball in the corner. This hurts JC's block string mix ups. Add in a 6 frame elbow dash and the reward for escaping pressure is much higher than other characters. Pile on the armor on ex slide and reptile can now escape pressure almost any time he wants. Of course, both can be baited and punished, so it's not all bad.

Other arguably bad MUs are mileena, sektor and sindel for their keepaway ability. Yep, JC has bad MUs against one-third of the cast.
 

Alright RyRy

Florida Kombat
Reptile is one of the Hardest matchups for cage IMO. Also I think that the CSZ matchup is in CSZs favor. That Ice parry is just dumb. I would rather play anybody else from the whole cast than a Cage vs Reptile match.
 

GNG Iniquity

#bufftaquito #punchwalk #whiffycage
Kabal, kenshi, kitana, noob saibot, reptile, sonya and sub zero are all undoubtedly bad MUs imo. Most can zone out JC and make it very tough to get in. I'd include Freddy but I don't know the MU. Sonya's probably the only one who doesn't need to zone to win. She builds meter like a beast and has the best defensive tool in the game: ex cartwheel. I've played lots of Sonyas recently (my set with gamerblake is in the video thread) and it's very hard to get much block strings without eventually being interrupted. JC just has to work harder. Coincidentally, Sonya's probably the only character in the game where ex shadow kick is useless full screen; do it too early and you'll lose armor and get hit by the ring, do it too late and you'll get blocked.

Reptile's another one who's zoning isn't the main annoyance for JC (although it can be). His hitbox is unique in that you can't do F33 ex force ball mid screen and F33B3 ex force ball in the corner. This hurts JC's block string mix ups. Add in a 6 frame elbow dash and the reward for escaping pressure is much higher than other characters. Pile on the armor on ex slide and reptile can now escape pressure almost any time he wants. Of course, both can be baited and punished, so it's not all bad.

Other arguably bad MUs are mileena, sektor and sindel for their keepaway ability. Yep, JC has bad MUs against one-third of the cast.
I would say that Mileena and Sindel are certainly bad MUs as well. Sektor has always felt around a 5-5 for me though, could be a 6-4 if the Sektor player is playing him defensively and smart; most play rushdown orientated Sektor's which is not the correct way to approach Cage.

Ugh just looking at this is really reinforcing why I haven't played him in so long lol
 

Mikemetroid

Who hired this guy, WTF?
I think playing a slightly defensive Cage can really whomp some of these match ups. I'm not really to sure about this, but since Tom Brady told me to try playing Cage as a slightly defensive character, I've been seeing matches that I've had trouble with before be different (and in my favor). I hope soon I can maybe write something up or record something. Maybe you guys already know this but I'm not giving up on Cage for shitty matchups, he just needs a smart new way to play.
 

Asodimazze

https://twitter.com/AlfioZacco
Kabal, kenshi, kitana, noob saibot, reptile, sonya and sub zero are all undoubtedly bad MUs imo. Most can zone out JC and make it very tough to get in. I'd include Freddy but I don't know the MU. Sonya's probably the only one who doesn't need to zone to win. She builds meter like a beast and has the best defensive tool in the game: ex cartwheel. I've played lots of Sonyas recently (my set with gamerblake is in the video thread) and it's very hard to get much block strings without eventually being interrupted. JC just has to work harder. Coincidentally, Sonya's probably the only character in the game where ex shadow kick is useless full screen; do it too early and you'll lose armor and get hit by the ring, do it too late and you'll get blocked.

Reptile's another one who's zoning isn't the main annoyance for JC (although it can be). His hitbox is unique in that you can't do F33 ex force ball mid screen and F33B3 ex force ball in the corner. This hurts JC's block string mix ups. Add in a 6 frame elbow dash and the reward for escaping pressure is much higher than other characters. Pile on the armor on ex slide and reptile can now escape pressure almost any time he wants. Of course, both can be baited and punished, so it's not all bad.

Other arguably bad MUs are mileena, sektor and sindel for their keepaway ability. Yep, JC has bad MUs against one-third of the cast.
I agree that the majority of these matchups aren't in Cage's favour, but saying they are all definitely bad MU is too much imho.

I would say:

Kabal = 3-7; he can easily do iagb from the start to the end of the match. The only real chance to win this matchup is find a way to push Kabal in the corner and block him there for the rest of the time...but it's really hard.

Kitana = 3-7; Dizzy perfectly explained how this matchup works a few posts earlier

Noob = 5 - 5; is hard to get close to him, but I don't feel that this matchup is bad for JC. You can punish up shadow clones with shadow kick if timed properly, and from a distance shorter than 3/4 screen noob obviously has to be really careful with his shadows because you can fully punish both shadow clones and sliding clones with deep JK, dash f3xxnutpunch or another combo of your choice.

Reptile = 5 - 5; I thought this matchup was 3-7, because of reptile's stupid hitbox, but there are ways around it. Instead of using f3,3xxEXforceball you have to use 1,3xxEXforceball against reptile, both fireballs will hit him and his magic hitbox wonderfully and you can continue your pressure. Reptile has some good tools to escape from JC, but like you said all of those moves are fully punishable on block so it isn't a big problem...we just have to play smarter than our opponent :D.

Sub-Zero = 5 - 5; I don't see how this matchup is in Sub-Zero's favour. His clone can be really annoying, and it isn't easy to catch him...but once you pass his guard and start pressuring him, the match is yours. He may use EXslide to excape the pressure, but if blocked it is game over for Sub. The key to win this matchup is patience...try to gain the lifelead early in the match and wait for him to come without pushing yourself in the corner.

I don't have much experience against Sonya and Kenshi offline, but from my impressions these matchups are both 5-5.

Sektor, Mileena and Sindel aren't bad for Cage imho. I would say 5-5, 6-4, 6-4, but I am not sure about Sektor's matchup so I won't talk about that.

Mileena doesn't have any real advantage against JC. Her zoning isn't that good, Roll, EX roll, tele and EX tele are all punishable with a combo that ends in nutpunch; her d4 lowers her hitbox to the point that fjp is nearly useless, but fjk combos works perfectly and she lacks an armor move so it's hard for her to escape pressure.

Sindel has a great zoning, but if you are able to dash block until she is cornered she is obliged to face JC and it will be very hard for her to escape the pressure because she lacks an armor move. If Sindel uses levi cancel techs properly she can be a pain upclose too for many characters, but not for JC...
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
I agree that kabal, kitana, reptile, kenshi, noob, and sub are definitely bad matchups in some way.

I would say that forceball traps that were discovered a while back that work on reptile helped alot. I would say its 6-4 now, still in reptiles favor. Its not as bad as kabal or kitana but still bad.

I could see sonya being a bad match up but I don't have much experience so I can't really give my input on it.

I believe sektor is 5-5. His zoning is decent, but nothing that crazy. Up close he has a 6 frame jab he can mash, but it loses to low pokes. No armor and poor wake ups. I think I wrote about the sektor match earlier.

I also believe freddy is 5-5. His zoning is proficient, but he has issues getting away unless he goes nuts burning meter on ex teleports. His armor on ex sweet dreams is laughable, if you do F3 it misses you, and the armor window is pretty short. Freddy is one of the few zoners ex shadow kick is pretty good against because all of his ground based projectiles and traps, and the fact that cornering him is huge. I have some decent freddy experience but I have never played the freddy of america, m2dave

Sindel is 5-5 probably. The big issues with her zoning is that she has to make so many correct guesses to kill johnny, and once he's in she's in trouble. Unlike other air based zoners, she doesn't get a combo from juggling you with an air fireball. She's not good up close, all she can do it low poke with her t rex arm d1 in a hope to get you off.

Not much mileena experience either so can't comment on that really.
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
Also I must reiterate the explanation of outsmarting or outplaying your opponent is not a viable means of arguing something is a 5-5. If you win in disadvantage matchups because you are outplaying your opponent it doesn't mean that that disadvantage matchup is a 5-5, it just means you made good reads to pull out the win.
 
I agree with Dizzy. Kenshi, Kabal, and Kitana definitely blow up JC, and could definitely be 7-3 matchups in their favor. Noob, Reptile, and Sub are still in their favor but are much more manageable fights, probably 6-4 in their favor. I'm not entirely convinced Sonya is a bad matchup yet, we'll have to see. Mileena seems to be an even matchup. Her zoning can be good, but I don't think it's enough to keep out JC consistently. Once he's in, she'll have a hard time getting him off. He can also punish her specials hard with b3 or at least a d1 combo to nutpunch. Her d4 can be stuffed with f3 or whiff punished with b3.
 
Sonya is without a doubt a bad MU for JC, he needs to play very smart. Ex cartwheel is ridiculous, great forward movement, super armor and safe. Sonya doesn't need a breaker most of the time, all she needs is one bar to escape your pressure. Considering how insanely fast Sonya builds meter, this is a problem. Maybe you bait out the ex cartwheel, you get in some block strings assuming she doesn't have another bar of meter. Then there's the issue of JC building meter. How can JC build meter if Sonya won't let him? Not to mention ex nut punch can be punished with iadk. JC needs to play the game midscreen. Sonya has the tools to win midscreen though: her MS attacks have great forward movement, again she has that ex cartwheel and that d4 is a bitch. The range and hit box is exactly like mileena's but sonya's d4 is more threatening because she can cancel into MS, cartwheel or ring. It's also difficult to AA sonya because she can mix up between jips and dive kicks. Good spacing will allow you to force whiff the dive kick, allowing for a B3 but the cross ups aren't as easy. She builds meter like a beast; her MS actually builds meter (although it's like 1/45th of a bar). You also can't pressure her on wake up if she has a bar. F4 is deceptively fast and gives a safe jump, where she can do 312. Maybe I haven't fully exploited the flaws of Sonya's game yet (vulnerability to low crouch), so there is a possibility the match up is 5-5. Sonya just controls the meter and the rushdown in this match up however, which I believe to be 4-6.

EDIT: the amazing whiff punish of dive kick also forces JC to be wary of any meter he has.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Dizzy, I have a lot of vs Cage experience because Cage is Master D.'s strongest character after Kabal. I think Cage vs Freddy is even. Freddy may have a slight advantage, but I do not believe this slight advantage translates to 6:4. Perhaps 5.5:4.5 is most appropriate at the moment. Obviously, Cage is the most explosive character up close, but Freddy is the best zoning character in the game.

Even the best zoning characters struggle vs Cage at mid range because of f+3 and b+3. Freddy is an exception because NMS (Nightmare Stance) is basically a small backdash that automatically puts Freddy in a crouching position. NMS also leads to a safe 50/50 mix up. Because Cage does not have an advancing special move that hits mid aside from EX shadow kick, zoning and meter building with NMS is too easy vs Cage. That is why Freddy may have a slight advantage. EX teleport (mid screen) and EX sweet dreams (corner) are not the best "get off me" moves, but I would still take them over nothing vs Cage. It sucks when you have to block even more after EX forceball (as Mileena and Noob, for example).