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Match-up Discussion Johnny Cage: Official Matchup Discussion

Mikemetroid

Who hired this guy, WTF?
This is late and irrelevant but its just a little thing that annoyed me when i read it. Never sweep when applying pressure. There is absolutely never a good reason i can think of to ever sweep when applying pressure with cage. Thats all i wanted to say
Its +3 and if you get it you can cross people up. It's perfectly fine.

If you AA them with it and you're on point you can combo them.
 

Mikemetroid

Who hired this guy, WTF?
Baraka- 6/4
Cyber Sub-Zero- 5/5
Cyrax- 5/5
Ermac- 5/5
Freddy- 4/6
Jade- 7/3
Jax- 6/4
Kabal- 3/7
Kano- 8/2
Kenshi- 3/7
Kitana- 5/5
Kung Lao- 5/5
Liu Kang- 5/5
Mileena- 7/3
Nightwolf- 8/2
Noob- 7/3
Quan- 7/3
Raiden- 6/4
Rain- 6/4
Reptile- 5/5
Scorpion- 6/4
Sektor- 5/5
Shang- 5/5
Sheeva- 8/2
Sindel- 6/4
Skarlet- 5/5
Smoke- 6/4
Sonya- 4/6
Stryker- 7/3
Sub-Zero- 4/6

Updated for the hell of it
 
Baraka- 6/4
Cyber Sub-Zero- 5/5
Cyrax- 5/5
Ermac- 5/5
Freddy- 4/6
Jade- 7/3
Jax- 6/4
Kabal- 3/7
Kano- 8/2
Kenshi- 3/7
Kitana- 5/5
Kung Lao- 5/5
Liu Kang- 5/5
Mileena- 7/3
Nightwolf- 8/2
Noob- 7/3
Quan- 7/3
Raiden- 6/4
Rain- 6/4
Reptile- 5/5
Scorpion- 6/4
Sektor- 5/5
Shang- 5/5
Sheeva- 8/2
Sindel- 6/4
Skarlet- 5/5
Smoke- 6/4
Sonya- 4/6
Stryker- 7/3
Sub-Zero- 4/6

Updated for the hell of it
i alwaysfelt that sub-zero and raiden were even especially raiden im just stubborn about sub-zero, and skarlet might be 4-6 and ermac might be 6-4
 

Mikemetroid

Who hired this guy, WTF?
Ugh. I just.. Would never do that. There are so many better options. You risk losing them. AA is a different story though.
Its not something to do everytime, I'll agree to that. It is a useful gimmick though.

i alwaysfelt that sub-zero and raiden were even especially raiden im just stubborn about sub-zero, and skarlet might be 4-6 and ermac might be 6-4
After playing a long set with DJT I don't think Sub-Zero at the highest level goes even with Cage.

Raiden is tricky though, I could see it being 5/5
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
I have a few differences personally with some of those but in general agree. The biggest difference I would say is 6-4 in Cyrax favor.
 
I have a few differences personally with some of those but in general agree. The biggest difference I would say is 6-4 in Cyrax favor.
What about kung lao? I ask your opinion because i know you've played against carl quite a bit and i havent. I've played king a lot and f0xy but never carl. Against king, when i was on my game, i definately felt like i had the favor but against foxy... That bird shit he does makes him unreadable. U have nothing to base reads on when he just flies back in forth . U can't back three, or uppercut on reaction so its basically a random guess if u hit him out of the air or not and if u guess wrong it can have consequences, like a full combo punish if i remember correctly. U kinda have to chase him down. Against standard kung lao, i say 6/4 cage. But against f0xy.. On a game based on reading ur opponent, when u cant really read him, its 6/4 lao atleast.
 
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Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
What about kung lao? I ask your opinion because i know you've played against carl quite a bit and i havent. I've played king a lot and f0xy but never carl. Against king, when i was on my game, i definately felt like i had the favor but against foxy... That bird shit he does makes him unreadable. U have nothing to base reads on when he just flies back in forth . U can't back three, or uppercut on reaction so its basically a random guess if u hit him out of the air or not and if u guess wrong it can have consequences, like a full combo punish if i remember correctly. U kinda have to chase him down. Against standard kung lao, i say 6/4 cage. But against f0xy.. On a game based on reading ur opponent, when u cant really read him, its 6/4 lao atleast.
Some people claim its 5-5 but I think cage has slight advantage. I think carl was better than King KL up until 2013 then he focused more on Kabal and Kings KL surpassed him. Carl was more of the "bird style" if you will, but King implemented it into his gameplay more in 2013 too though.
 
It sucks that foxy only started playing like he did with lao when mk was dying. Sooo many people never got to see it. People think it was how carl played. It wasn't . This guy would literally jk dk back n forth, not attacking you. Just taunting you, knowing you can't really do shit about it. And he'd force u into making mistakes. Some characters like cage and shang tsung and a few others, simply have no real tools against it. Its a super broken tactic. And I feel like no one knows what I'm talking about. Foxy made a whole thread on it. But i think when u play the mu like him. Its in lao's favor.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
I know retrospect is always one helluva drug, but I saw this thread pop up on the main forum feed and read the first page:


jc vs jax

73 jc wtf are you thinking. Jax is the best character in the game with no bad matchups [MAD]JAX HAS A BLOCK INFINITE!!!!![/MAD] jax can zone out cage well,because the frame his hand hits the ground in a ground pound he can start a lunge fist thingy mabober. so jc cannot get in on jax if he armoures through jax has a block infinite at close range beating cage close range this is only 64 jax, because of jax's slight dificilty in getting out of cages frame traps. If you disagree please comment after lets see how u think a character can have adv on a character with a block infintie, btw im sor mi spilen woz bud un dis rind
:DOGE

Sorry, I just had to do it.
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
It sucks that foxy only started playing like he did with lao when mk was dying. Sooo many people never got to see it. People think it was how carl played. It wasn't . This guy would literally jk dk back n forth, not attacking you. Just taunting you, knowing you can't really do shit about it. And he'd force u into making mistakes. Some characters like cage and shang tsung and a few others, simply have no real tools against it. Its a super broken tactic. And I feel like no one knows what I'm talking about. Foxy made a whole thread on it. But i think when u play the mu like him. Its in lao's favor.
I went in the lab and checked it out, asked somberness to look into the frame data behind it, and tried it myself even. I just don't think it's that great against cage. Its slower than standing 1 so if he ever tries to get it started anywhere in that range he gets juggled. People dont think other KLs can do it right but I know others have tried it, its just if JC times it correctly, standing 1 will juggle him as he goes up in the air trying to get it started. Other normals can work too, it just is easiesr with standing 1. If hes doing it from far away, its much easier to uppercut it as he crosses you over as the angle is much closer to your head. You can watch my match with Forever King at UFGT, as he tries to get it started from further than point blank.
 
I went in the lab and checked it out, asked somberness to look into the frame data behind it, and tried it myself even. I just don't think it's that great against cage. Its slower than standing 1 so if he ever tries to get it started anywhere in that range he gets juggled. People dont think other KLs can do it right but I know others have tried it, its just if JC times it correctly, standing 1 will juggle him as he goes up in the air trying to get it started. Other normals can work too, it just is easiesr with standing 1. If hes doing it from far away, its much easier to uppercut it as he crosses you over as the angle is much closer to your head. You can watch my match with Forever King at UFGT, as he tries to get it started from further than point blank.
That's the thing. You CAN'T time it correctly because it's not exactly consistent. And u can only basically uppercut on read. And if u mis time it, i think he can full combo punish, im
Not sure on that. It's been so long since I've played, but from what I remember the best option was to move and mess his spacing up or chase him down as he landed. It wasn't an impossible game, i could take games off of him but he took alot more. It looked retarded. U say u can use 1 and other normals. But Lol. I remember desperately trying anything. 1 . Dash 1. Back 3 . Uppercut. I could not get him out of the air. Nothing would hit him besides upper cut and that was by chance less than read really. He'd be flying back in forth and id just be upper cutting the air like an idiot. Then i learned the best option was to just move. But the best thing about bird lao is that he has so many options and u won't be able to know which one he is about to choose because he just looks stupid flying every where . He's hard to read. And it's just such a better way to play against cage. It lets him control the match more. Cage can still catch him and lock him down and do his thing but its harder.
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
This exact discussion has happened at least twice on this forum, possibly in this thread. If you want to look at what he has to say in sure if you looked around you could find it.

You are basically saying you have to throw out moves at random, which is false, that's all I wanted to clarify. It loses at various ranges to various normals and never awards anything if you just chill out when he's out of range. That is the key to all of JC MUs, knowing when to just chill out.

Regardless, if you want to see myself or foxy opinion on Bird Lao we both have made many posts about it in the past and in sure you'll find plenty of info if you search for it. We have a pretty fundamental disagreement on the pros and cons of the strategy that has been reiterated many times.

@Soul Bound X
 
This exact discussion has happened at least twice on this forum, possibly in this thread. If you want to look at what he has to say in sure if you looked around you could find it.

You are basically saying you have to throw out moves at random, which is false, that's all I wanted to clarify. It loses at various ranges to various normals and never awards anything if you just chill out when he's out of range. That is the key to all of JC MUs, knowing when to just chill out.

Regardless, if you want to see myself or foxy opinion on Bird Lao we both have made many posts about it in the past and in sure you'll find plenty of info if you search for it. We have a pretty fundamental disagreement on the pros and cons of the strategy that has been reiterated many times.

@Soul Bound X
Have u played foxy's creation known as bird lao? Have u played foxy's bird lao?
 

coolwhip

Noob
@Sould Bound X

Watch Dizzy vs King at UFGT last year, and see how many times Dizzy uppercutted Kung Lao as he was "birding." Not saying it's not a useful strategy, but it's blown way out of proportion. Cage beats Lao 6-4. Bird or not.
 

coolwhip

Noob
I went in the lab and checked it out, asked somberness to look into the frame data behind it, and tried it myself even. I just don't think it's that great against cage. Its slower than standing 1 so if he ever tries to get it started anywhere in that range he gets juggled. People dont think other KLs can do it right but I know others have tried it, its just if JC times it correctly, standing 1 will juggle him as he goes up in the air trying to get it started. Other normals can work too, it just is easiesr with standing 1. If hes doing it from far away, its much easier to uppercut it as he crosses you over as the angle is much closer to your head. You can watch my match with Forever King at UFGT, as he tries to get it started from further than point blank.
LOL I just read this reply. Yeah pretty much the match I was referring to.
 
I never fought foxys lao. I dont play NRS games online though.
Ok man. No disrespect to you but then u really dk what im talking about then. I know how forever king plays, its nothing like foxy's. People hear me say that he just jk dk's and think its stupid but if u havent played foxy then guys, u dont get it. U think if d2 was simply the answer i wouldn't know it? U can't react to it with d2 . I've played king and foxy back to back and its MUCH harder to beat foxy's lao in that mu because of his tactic and safer playing. U guys are theory fighting, i'm telling u my experience with it. It's great in this mu.
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
Ok man. No disrespect to you but then u really dk what im talking about then. I know how forever king plays, its nothing like foxy's. People hear me say that he just jk dk's and think its stupid but if u havent played foxy then guys, u dont get it. U think if d2 was simply the answer i wouldn't know it? U can't react to it with d2 . I've played king and foxy back to back and its MUCH harder to beat foxy's lao in that mu because of his tactic and safer playing. U guys are theory fighting, i'm telling u my experience with it. It's great in this mu.
I have prepared for everything that KL can do. Foxy doesn't use magic, he follows the same rules of the game as everyone else. Back when I practiced MK I spent time to study what is possible such as what jk/dk can do at each range.

You can believe whatever you want. I believe in frame data and what I have tested myself and it has given me considerable success against all KLs offline. Im not concerned with what people were doing online with KL.
 
Lol, is soul seriously implying that Dizzy a top ten all time MK9 player isn't qualified to speak on a Cage MU cause he didn't play a player who came to our country and got bopped lool?
 
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I have prepared for everything that KL can do. Foxy doesn't use magic, he follows the same rules of the game as everyone else. Back when I practiced MK I spent time to study what is possible such as what jk/dk can do at each range.

You can believe whatever you want. I believe in frame data and what I have tested myself and it has given me considerable success against all KLs offline. Im not concerned with what people were doing online with KL.
I do believe that king hasnt fully mastered the jumpkick divekick thing and no other tournament kung lao has mastered 24 spin like foxy has, just imagine getting hit by 24 overhead and it being 35% damage instead of just 15%. This in my opinion is a pretty big difference, I would say kung lao players not using 24 spin is like pre patch cage players not using f32nutpunch. Not to say which kung lao is better I dont want to start that conversation, but we will never know because mk has had its time. Another thing is Pl was by results definitely the best kung lao, but you know the guy is very stubborn and sometimes does not want to listen to other people who have good(partial) solutions for some of kung laos problems