Johnny Cage must not be normalized.

[Rodney Quillz]

You have people saying he loses to around ten characters in your forum. All females plus complaints about Erron and others.

That's cool people say he's top tier, but you can't say someone is top then say they lose free to six characters and then lose to others. Some of the comments were made in this thread within the last couple pages and have gone ignored and not challenged. MD does it and I've seen it before. I also defend Cage and have done so in this thread. I don't think he needs these absurd suggested nerfs either.


Similarly, I made a point denouncing Kombat's nerf suggestions but certain Cage players ignore that and reply with "people are scrubs for disagreeing with a narrative lol". If that's the takeaway from what I said then that's not my problem. I don't have a narrative. I'm just tired of seeing two extreme points of view advocated.

I wasn’t talking about you in particular.

 

[Espio]

I wasn’t talking about you in particular.

You quoted Wigy who quoted me. Logic would indicate it most certainly concerns me in particular cause I'm the one talking lol. It shouldn't even be associated with me, I am discussing this in a fair manner from my observations. That was my mistake in this conversation.

 

[Rodney Quillz]

You quoted Wigy who quoted me. Logic would indicate it most certainly concerns me in particular cause I'm the one talking lol. It shouldn't even be associated with me, I am discussing this in a fair manner from my observations. That was my mistake in this conversation.

Think whatever you want man, if I wanted to send some shots your way I surely would have tagged you.

I get what you are saying but I was really just replying to Wigy in a general sense.

I can see you are being impartial.

 

[Wigy]

You have people saying he loses to around ten characters in your forum. All females plus complaints about Erron and others.

That's cool people say he's top tier, but you can't say someone is top then say they lose free to six characters and then lose to others. Some of the comments were made in this thread within the last couple pages and have gone ignored and not challenged. MD does it and I've seen it before. I also defend Cage and have done so in this thread. I don't think he needs these absurd suggested nerfs either.


Similarly, I made a point denouncing Kombat's nerf suggestions but certain Cage players ignore that and reply with "people are scrubs for disagreeing with a narrative lol". If that's the takeaway from what I said then that's not my problem. I don't have a narrative. I'm just tired of seeing two extreme points of view advocated.

My point is the downplaying is highly exaggerated and most of the cage communities views fall in line with the norm. It's just challenging some exaggerations here and there. I've seen geras runaway zoning that's more oppressive in tournament matches than Johnny v3 but people talk about it like mk9 kabal.

 

[mrapchem]

Let's be clear about Johnny - Outtake is a top variation. However, it's a top variation because it effectively covers Johnny's glaring blindspots, which are:


a.) his lack of fast mids, or any mids at all besides F4 and
b.) his high attacks/straight forceballs whiffing on crouch block against about 40% of the cast(all of the ladies, except Jade, Cetrion and Sindel and on a few male characters also).


These issues have existed since the launch of the game, and before NRS attempted to fix those two issues, they decided to create Outtake, taking one useless move(Low Fireball) and a pretty good move(Rising Star) and buff them both to be 9-frame start-up and have very little recovery, which only serves to piss off every other character community without addressing his core issues.

These issues still haven't been fixed to this day.

And yes, Johnny himself makes certain characters' mids and other normals whiff on crouch block, but that doesn't nullify his own hitbox issues against other characters, but that is a symptom of a rushed product, not of anything having to do with Johnny himself.

Again, Outtake is a top variation, but given the fact that many characters still make his S1/S2 whiff on crouch block and he has a 14-frame non-combo-starting mid in a 9-frame-mid/throw game, there's no way it can be the #1 character in the game, even with all the propaganda stating otherwise.

Once people start disrespecting his +6 blockstrings because they realize the best he can follow up with is an 11-frame high, a 10-frame throw or an 8-frame low poke, Outtake will start falling down the tier list into its true place in the meta, because it's being highly upplayed right now.

 

[Rodney Quillz]

Let's be clear about Johnny - Outtake is a top variation. However, it's a top variation because it effectively covers Johnny's glaring blindspots, which are:


a.) his lack of fast mids, or any mids at all besides F4 and
b.) his high attacks/straight forceballs whiffing on crouch block against about 40% of the cast(all of the ladies, except Jade, Cetrion and Sindel and on a few male characters also).


These issues have existed since the launch of the game, and before NRS attempted to fix those two issues, they decided to create Outtake, taking one useless move(Low Fireball) and a pretty good move(Rising Star) and buff them both to be 9-frame start-up and have very little recovery, which only serves to piss off every other character community without addressing his core issues.

These issues still haven't been fixed to this day.

And yes, Johnny himself makes certain characters' mids and other normals whiff on crouch block, but that doesn't nullify his own hitbox issues against other characters, but that is a symptom of a rushed product, not of anything having to do with Johnny himself.

Again, Outtake is a top variation, but given the fact that many characters still make his S1/S2 whiff on crouch block and he has a 14-frame non-combo-starting mid in a 9-frame-mid/throw game, there's no way it can be the #1 character in the game, even with all the propaganda stating otherwise.

Once people start disrespecting his +6 blockstrings because they realize the best he can follow up with is an 11-frame high, a 10-frame throw or an 8-frame low poke, Outtake will start falling down the tier list into its true place in the meta, because it's being highly upplayed right now.

You bout to get dragged bruh.

 

[Hallucinogen]

I honestly wonder if ppl are having issues with him out of the scope of high level play. Because I've played thousands of games online both kl and casuals and I did not see many jc at all. A few more lately since he got glorified but still not that much. I don't believe he's easy to win with in an online setting and that there are better and easier options. So do ppl here struggle against him from personal experience, srsly curious to know...?

 

[mrapchem]

You bout to get dragged bruh.

You're probably right, but the truth is the truth, so...

 

[Hellbringer]

I'm glad you said all this cause I generally don't have the energy for the antics/lying of some of these Cage players. It's super silly. Jade beating Johnny has always been mythological and is even more so now in the current meta of the game.

I wanna add to some of what you said, some Cage players cry their eyes out about his force balls whiffing, but they all work on Jade's hitbox. They're crickets for that or his low profiling poke that can make Jade's best mid whiff or his capability to restand into massive damage versus Jade who does generally 18% for consistent damage and off crushing blows or her 28 frame overhead she can get in the 30's. Glow activation can be punished super far out too with shadow kick.

Some people think if they have to play even a fraction different the match up is an issue which is both odd and sad. Jade is a phantom bad match up to justify Cage and realistically 5-5 for Cage and definitely not losing. He has too much going for him. I also used to secondary Cage and always held my own and generally beat Jades more than they beat me with my Cage.

Everytime a cageplayer knows hes wrong but doesnt have any arguments anymore: BUT ZE FORCEBALLZ WHIFFF HE SUCCCKKKZZZZ

 

[mrapchem]

I honestly wonder if ppl are having issues with him out of the scope of high level play. Because I've played thousands of games online both kl and casuals and I did not see many jc at all. A few more lately since he got glorified but still not that much. I don't believe he's easy to win with in an online setting and that there are better and easier options. So do ppl here struggle against him from personal experience, srsly curious to know...?

In my estimation, people are constantly looking for a boogeyman in NRS titles to nerf. Sometimes the complaints are legitimate, but many times they are mostly hyperbolic and based off trends.

Before Showstopper got his glasses KB and Outtake was even a thing, Johnny Cage had good qualities like he does now, but was still very vanilla and honest, even against characters that his forceballs jailed on. He had no KBs and just a single variation that was worth a damn. Then, Showstopper was updated and there were a few occasional pitchforks once people saw the kind of unbreakable damage he was getting. Yet, Johnny still had very few KBs and still had whiffing forceballs, and the community was still too busy hating Liu Kang to pay JC any mind.

Then Outtake was born and his low forceball went from being useless to completely aggravating for most non-Johnny players. Plus, he was given a buffed Rising Star that served as his 9-frame mid. Plus, Liu Kang's 9-frame F4 was gone, along with Scorpion's mid teleport.


So, to answer your question, I'm sure that a few people here-and-there have issues fighting their homeboy's JC, but he doesn't have anywhere near the number of representatives online that Liu, Scorpion, Jacqui or Geras has. There aren't droves of JC players out here zoning out all their opponents to death in Outtake, or forcing people to eat millions of plus-frame forceballs in Showstopper/Shock Jock.

Are there a few JCs doing it? Absolutely! But not nearly at such a prolific rate to justify people 'calling out delusional JC players' for correctly noting their character's hitbox issues and other flaws.

If NRS were to make the mistake of actually nerfing Johnny because of whining, people won't be satisfied - they will simply find another boogeyman.

 

[Rodney Quillz]

Everytime a cageplayer knows hes wrong but doesnt have any arguments anymore: BUT ZE FORCEBALLZ WHIFFF HE SUCCCKKKZZZZ

Ok.

 

[Plays2_MX]

If NRS were to make the mistake of actually nerfing Johnny because of whining, people won't be satisfied - they will simply find another boogeyman.

Imo that boogeyman will always be Geras. That mofo is still avoiding that nerf hammer hard. Johnny is fine.

 

[Ck AeroVoid]

Ok.

And that, My friends Is A rare, Inherently Expediting Quote filled with Descriptivity

 

[Zviko]

Imo that boogeyman will always be Geras. That mofo is still avoiding that nerf hammer hard. Johnny is fine.

Honestly, if they remove Geras, they can even buff Outtake Johnny. I wouldn't care.

 

[Ck AeroVoid]

Imo that boogeyman will always be Geras. That mofo is still avoiding that nerf hammer hard. Johnny is fine.

They could Go All Mira (Ki) on him and make his Best moves damage himself as well

 

[DrFolmer]

Can we just make him a fully functional footsie character without having him out-zoning everyone. He shouldn't have super fast mid forceballs. It's that crazy versatility he has in Outtake that's nuts. I refrained from trying him when he was first released, but fighting Cetrion and Skarlet was fucking easy the first time I tried it.

Showstopper is fine. Even though that is my opinion, you can take his plus frames idc. Just make his standing normals actually hit on block. Oh, and buff Shock Jock. If anything, that variation should have access to plus frames exclusively, so that block pressure can work in conjunction with Brass Knuckles.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Imo the source of this confusion is the fact that people can't see cage as 3 variations: One probably a bit OP right now, another that clearly is useful, even if it's less useful against certain hitbox sizes, and a 3rd which probably needs help.

Every time someone suggests that Outtake might actually be a bit too much, someone else essentially says "But Cage is only as good as his weakest variation" which is logic that they don't apply to any of the characters they complain about.

Imagine every Liu Kang replying with "But, Dragon's Breath!" every time someone suggests Liu Kang is good, and you'll see how ridiculous this sounds.

So possibly toning down the forceballs in Outtake should be fine, and shouldn't be taken as this huge mandate to cripple every variation he has. Just be specific about which variation you're referencing and it's easy to understand.

 

[M2Dave]

Once people start disrespecting his +6 blockstrings because they realize the best he can follow up with is an 11-frame high, a 10-frame throw or an 8-frame low poke, Outtake will start falling down the tier list into its true place in the meta, because it's being highly upplayed right now.

I agree with the bulk of your post, but some of your premises make no sense.

If Outtake is a "top variation", how can it "start falling down the tier list"? You either believe the variation is top tier or you do not.

Also, nobody is up playing Outtake mindlessly, at least not the majority of the community. The reality is that Outtake Johnny Cage has won ECT, NEC, and the big online tournament hosted by Destroyer. The results speak for themselves and the community can clearly see them.

Correct me if I am mistaken, but my perception is that you made a reasonable post yet sprinkled some traces of downplaying over it.

 

[mrapchem]

Imo the source of this confusion is the fact that people can't see cage as 3 variations: One probably a bit OP right now, another that is useful, even if it suffers against certain hitbox sizes, and a 3rd which probably needs help.

Every time someone suggests that Outtake might actually be a bit too much, someone else essentially says "But Cage is only as good as his weakest variation" which is logic that they don't apply to any of the characters they complain about.

So possibly toning down the forceballs in Outtake should be fine, and shouldn't be taken as this huge mandate to cripple every variation he has. Just be specific about which variation you're referencing and it's easy to understand.

The substance of what you're saying isn't wrong, but we all just saw a top-level tournament player actively campaign for the nerfing of his universal tools, like his plus frames. He didn't say "oh, just give the low fireballs a wee bit more recovery", which wouldn't bother a single day-one Cage player here. Instead, he called for basically taking away everything about Johnny that makes him Johnny.

Furthermore, Johnny players - who have been using him before Outtake was even thought of - have had to fight these ridiculous matches against characters that we might actually go even with, except our main tools(high jailing forceballs and high pressure/combo starters) don't even function properly against these characters simply because NRS can't make a consistent hitbox to save their lives. We've been fighting against these characters using Shock Jock, and then later with Showstopper, whose tools didn't work any better, but he at least had a KB and unbreakable damage.

Suddenly, Outtake comes along and now we don't even have to worry about whiffing forceballs anymore because a previously-useless move was made obnoxious. So now, Johnny is finally consistent to some degree against most of the cast, but what do we hear? "Johnny needs to be nerfed", "Johnny is stupid", "Johnny beats everyone in the game".

It is both quizzical and comically annoying, because the moment that a good character with a lot of potential - that still has unfixed whiffing issues, a single slow, non-comboing mid and virtually no KBs - finally gets a bit of consistency and some tournament wins, suddenly he's the #1 character in the game when Cetrion, Cassie, Geras, Liu Kang and Jacqui still exist., and should get hit with the nerf bat because people don't want to walk and block a fireball.


I'll end with this: NRS should give JC's low fireball a few more recovery frames so that people don't feel like they're being zoned out. In exchange, we need ALL HITBOX INCONSISTENCIES FIXED so that Johnny can be himself against everyone in the game. I don't even care about his lack of mids or KBs, just let our forceballs and highs jail on crouch block consistently against everyone.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

The substance of what you're saying isn't wrong, but we all just saw a top-level tournament player actively campaign for the nerfing of his universal tools, like his plus frames. He didn't say "oh, just give the low fireballs a wee bit more recovery", which wouldn't bother a single day-one Cage player here. Instead, he called for basically taking away everything about Johnny that makes him Johnny.

Furthermore, Johnny players - who have been using him before Outtake was even thought of - have had to fight these ridiculous matches against characters that we might actually go even with, except our main tools(high jailing forceballs and high pressure/combo starters) don't even function properly against these characters simply because NRS can't make a consistent hitbox to save their lives. We've been fighting against these characters using Shock Jock, and then later with Showstopper, whose tools didn't work any better, but he at least had a KB and unbreakable damage.

Suddenly, Outtake comes along and now we don't even have to worry about whiffing forceballs anymore because a previously-useless move was made obnoxious. So now, Johnny is finally consistent to some degree against most of the cast, but what do we hear? "Johnny needs to be nerfed", "Johnny is stupid", "Johnny beats everyone in the game".

It is both quizzical and comically annoying, because the moment that a good character with a lot of potential - that still has unfixed whiffing issues, a single slow, non-comboing mid and virtually no KBs - finally gets a bit of consistency and some tournament wins, suddenly he's the #1 character in the game when Cetrion, Cassie, Geras, Liu Kang and Jacqui still exist., and should get hit with the nerf bat because people don't want to walk and block a fireball.


I'll end with this: NRS should give JC's low fireball a few more recovery frames so that people don't feel like they're being zoned out. In exchange, we need ALL HITBOX INCONSISTENCIES FIXED so that Johnny can be himself against everyone in the game. I don't even care about his lack of mids or KBs, just let our forceballs and highs jail on crouch block consistently against everyone.

This is why I'm advocating discussing specific variations here instead of just saying, 'Johnny'.

But saying "because people don't want to walk and block a fireball" is a little ridiculous. When someone has a projectile that comes out that fast, movement is a read, always. And controlling your movement strengthens his already formidable space control. These are the kinds of comments that lead to this community being branded as downplayers.

Basically, I don't think the Johnny community does themselves any favors by overcompensating just as hard in the other direction. Say Kombat's post was overzealous and leave it at that.

 

[mrapchem]

I agree with the bulk of your post, but some of your premises make no sense.

If Outtake is a "top variation", how can it "start falling down the tier list"? You either believe the variation is top tier or you do not.

Also, nobody is up playing Outtake mindlessly, at least not the majority of the community. The reality is that Outtake Johnny Cage has won ECT, NEC, and the big online tournament hosted by Destroyer. The results speak for themselves and the community can clearly see them.

Correct me if I am mistaken, but my perception is that you made a reasonable post yet sprinkled some traces of downplaying over it.

I was saying Johnny is very good, but he damn sure isn't #1 like everyone says he is. I think he could be S+, but could also easily be S or even A+ once people start consistently blowing him up either for being +6 and following up with highs, a poke or a slow mid, or by using small hitbox characters against him to counter.

Outtake didn't win those tournaments so much as Sonic and Ninjakilla won those tournaments. I do not mean to downplay - like I said, Johnny's got good stuff - but today's elite players could pick up just about anyone in the cast and either win or place very high in tournament, and it wouldn't mean that the character they used is #1 in the game. For its faults, MK11 is balanced well enough where the whole cast is at least partially viable.

JC isn't consistent enough to be #1 and certainly not enough to be the target of nerfs. But he is good enough to win tournaments in the Outtake variation.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Outtake didn't win those tournaments so much as Sonic and Ninjakilla won those tournaments. I do not mean to downplay - like I said, Johnny's got good stuff - but today's elite players could pick up just about anyone in the cast and either win or place very high in tournament, and it wouldn't mean that the character they used is #1 in the game.

Ok, but you know that both of those players (except when Sonic hard-locks to prove a point) specifically choose characters that they think are the strongest because they both want to win tournaments. When several of absolute best players in the game all pick up the same character, there's always a reason.

If everyone was playing Jacqui, for example, to win tournaments, even as a Jacqui main I'd have to admit that there's probably a reason for it. But they're not playing Jacqui -- they're playing Cage (specifically Outtake and Show Stopper). That means they've analyzed the effort required vs. the reward they get back and decided that Johnny is offering one of the highest ratios in the cast against high-level competition.

 

[mrapchem]

This is why I'm advocating discussing specific variations here instead of just saying, 'Johnny'.

But saying "because people don't want to walk and block a fireball" is a little ridiculous. When someone has a projectile that comes out that fast, movement is a read, always. And controlling your movement strengthens his already formidable space control. These are the kinds of comments that lead to this community being branded as downplayers.

Basically, I don't think the Johnny community does themselves any favors by overcompensating just as hard in the other direction. Say Kombat's post was overzealous and leave it at that.

Nobody is overcompensating on the JC community side - we're trying to make his weaknesses well-known so that NRS doesn't cater to the masses as they historically have and hit this character with the nerf hammer while not having his perpetual issues fixed. Like I said, most of us Cage players would be fine with an adjustment to the Outtake fireball, some of us would even be fine with a tweak to EX Rising Star, I'm sure.

But we can't be having Johnny's universal strengths be eliminated with no fixes, especially because people (not just Kombat) are always targeting a top-tier boogeyman.

 

[mrapchem]

Ok, but you know that both of those players (except when Sonic hard-locks to prove a point) specifically choose characters that they think are the strongest because they both want to win tournaments. When several of absolute best players in the game all pick up the same character, there's always a reason.

If everyone was playing Jacqui, for example, to win tournaments, even as a Jacqui main I'd have to admit that there's probably a reason for it. But they're not playing Jacqui -- they're playing Cage (specifically Outtake and Showstopper). That means they've analyzed the effort required vs. the reward they get back and decided that Johnny is offering one of the highest ratios in the cast against high-level competition.

Again, I've already noted that JC is strong; I specifically stated that he is "top". Just because he's top doesn't mean he's S+, and it certainly doesn't mean he's #1.

I'll put it like this: Outtake is top and could probably have his specific tools very slightly toned down, but Johnny Cage needs consistency, not nerfs.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Nobody is overcompensating on the JC community side - we're trying to make his weaknesses well-known so that NRS doesn't cater to the masses as they historically have and hit this character with the nerf hammer while not having his perpetual issues fixed. Like I said, most of us Cage players would be fine with an adjustment to the Outtake fireball, some of us would even be fine with a tweak to EX Rising Star, I'm sure.

But we can't be having Johnny's universal strengths be eliminated with no fixes, especially because people (not just Kombat) are always targeting a top-tier boogeyman.

In your opinion, do the nerfs to Geras, Liu Kang, Cassie, Jacqui, Sonya etc. indicate that NRS is "catering to the masses"? Or hitting the top characters with the "nerf hammer"? Almost every legitimately top character that's been nerfed is still tournament-viable.

I'd say it's characters who aren't good that have more to fear, because a small adjustment might have a larger impact overall (Scorpion). But among characters who are actually being used frequently in tournament Top 8s, their track record of balance adjustments has been pretty conservative and well-reasoned so far.