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Johnny Cage must not be normalized.

Should Johnny Cage be normalized?

  • Yes, but only Show Stopper.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    131

Vslayer

Juiced Moose On The Loose
Lead Moderator
As a matter of fact I did but not as frequently. I remember someone win tourneys even with his first variation so I don’t think it’s a big deal
9f specials that are safe on block, have pushback and have no back is a problem lmao it's the reason they nerfed Cassie's glow kick. Outtake is getting nerfed 100%. Not to mention his 9f projectile.

You sir, are as green as they come. But it's okay, we all start somewhere.
 

mrapchem

Noob
At full screen it's one of the best zoning tools in the game. At the range you can duck them he has great normals and by godlike oki I mentioned comes from godlike special move - rising star. Outtake is VERY good at every range. Stop denying it already...
That isn't what you said: you stated that Johnny is "the best zoner in the game", which he definitely is not. His fireball is very good - which everyone has already acknowledged - from fullscreen, but as you said, that's only at fullscreen. Once the opponent gets any closer than 3/4ths of the screen, that zoning tool loses all its potency.

Johnny does have good normals, but his best string F344 starts with a slow high, which can also be ducked by the entire cast. And if the JC player tries to play oki with that string and gets rolled, they're dead.

As for Rising Star, it does knock the opponent down for quite a long time, but in this game, where the opponent has 6 defensive getup options for the aggressor to guess between, okizeme is damn-near non-existent in open space and only half-exists in the corner. So JC ain't getting no free oki in this game - not because he's Johnny Cage - but because most of the cast doesn't get free oki.

Unless...they have a 9-frame mid....



Nevertheless, I'm not saying that JC is anything less than the cream of the crop in this game, but people talk about him as if:

a.) he has no exploitable weaknesses and
b.) his strong tools cannot be counter-played in every match

Johnny's an honest character with two very good special moves that put him over the edge into Top-Tier Land. But that doesn't mean he deserves nerfs now.
 

Vslayer

Juiced Moose On The Loose
Lead Moderator
Aye aye aye.

'Johnny is an honest character' has to be the funniest thing I've read all day. Outtake needs nerfs.
  • Stupidly good auto shimmy, full combo on hit confirm.
  • 9F force balls you can use point-blank, and anywhere on the screen - NERF
  • 9F Rising Star, no gap, has pushback to make any string safe (which is literally the thing they took away from Cassie cause it was too strong) - NERF
  • His spacing is amazing 124 > B34 full combo, 124 > F344 Rising Star
  • Any string into rising star and it's ggs gl in loser's bracket
 

mrapchem

Noob
Aye aye aye.

'Johnny is an honest character' has to be the funniest thing I've read all day. Outtake needs nerfs.
  • Stupidly good auto shimmy, full combo on hit confirm.
  • 9F force balls you can use point-blank, and anywhere on the screen - NERF
  • 9F Rising Star, no gap, has pushback to make any string safe (which is literally the thing they took away from Cassie cause it was too strong) - NERF
  • His spacing is amazing 124 > B34 full combo, 124 > F344 Rising Star
  • Any string into rising star and it's ggs gl in loser's bracket
Ironically, you didn't read what I said at all, so I'll restate it: Johnny Cage is an honest character with two moves that aren't very honest. Those two moves have catapulted him to the top of tier lists and tournament wins.
 

Wigy

There it is...
Aye aye aye.

'Johnny is an honest character' has to be the funniest thing I've read all day. Outtake needs nerfs.
  • Stupidly good auto shimmy, full combo on hit confirm.
  • 9F force balls you can use point-blank, and anywhere on the screen - NERF
  • 9F Rising Star, no gap, has pushback to make any string safe (which is literally the thing they took away from Cassie cause it was too strong) - NERF
  • His spacing is amazing 124 > B34 full combo, 124 > F344 Rising Star
  • Any string into rising star and it's ggs gl in loser's bracket
Don't get too carried away.

Also as stated before. Cassie's a runaway character and her glowkick switched sides. Also she had a bunch of strings which were balanced by their negativity on block, Johnny's strings are safe anyway.

After 124 you can space out and challenge both of those. That strings so overrated on tym. It's amazing in the corner midscreen it's really not very oppressive at all.

DISCLAIMER- I AM HAPPY WITH THAT VARIATION BEING NERFED. I think other characters are more stupid but with the way tools work Johnny does well against the top tier. Geras and cetrion are way more oppressive in many matchups.
 

Vslayer

Juiced Moose On The Loose
Lead Moderator
Ironically, you didn't read what I said at all, so I'll restate it: Johnny Cage is an honest character with two moves that aren't very honest. Those two moves have catapulted him to the top of tier lists and tournament wins.
That doesn't make sense. His OP tools make him dishonest. You can't be both. He'll be honest once they're both nerfed.
Don't get too carried away.

Also as stated before. Cassie's a runaway character and her glowkick switched sides. Also she had a bunch of strings which were balanced by their negativity on block, Johnny's strings are safe anyway.

After 124 you can space out and challenge both of those. That strings so overrated on tym. It's amazing in the corner midscreen it's really not very oppressive at all.

DISCLAIMER- I AM HAPPY WITH THAT VARIATION BEING NERFED. I think other characters are more stupid but with the way tools work Johnny does well against the top tier.
Boi, if it's the fact that it switched sides that was too broken then they would have changed that. Instead, they added a gap to balance it. If they don't do the same to Johnny's then they're high AF.

If you challenge it, you're gonna get clipped unless you neutral jump.
 

Wigy

There it is...
From watching top level Johnny matchups, I really don't see how the forceballs are that bad. I see them almost exclusively used to just check people and put a little pressure on. Make them slower IDC but I just don't see what's described on TYM in tournament level games.

Again- DISCLAIMER- JOHNNY V3 CAN BE NERFED AND IM OKAY WITH IT, IM JUST COMMENTING ON MY PERCEPTION OF EXAGGERATION.
 

Zviko

Noob
Of course he gets good oki after rising start lol. Cross up man. It beats everything except forward roll and you won't get punished for that. And so many characters with such oki can do exactly the same. And if they roll all the time you throw. And then you shimmy with 121 and send them full screen again which is completely fine for you or in the corner you get a full combo from it.
 

Wigy

There it is...
That doesn't make sense. His OP tools make him dishonest. You can't be both. He'll be honest once they're both nerfed.


Boi, if it's the fact that it switched sides that was too broken then they would have changed that. Instead, they added a gap to balance it. If they don't do the same to Johnny's then they're high AF.

If you challenge it, you're gonna get clipped unless you neutral jump.
I'm trying to break down the nuance between characters, I find comparisons of one particular tool between characters it's silly. Cage doesn't have a 9f staggerable mid string that hits overhead second hit or an 11frame long range mid, his gameplan is different in general

I saw the glowkick primarily used when cornered or after 111.

I'm not saying rising star doesn't need tweaking but Cassie's was dumb for a host of different reasons.

Respect to you and all, we agree generally. I'm just getting into semantics.
 

Zviko

Noob
Well this is fine. My initial post on first page was exactly this. Slight nerf to projectiles. I hope it's enough though.
 

heildan

NANI?!
I agree with these nerfs. They added 2f to his Low/High forceballs, like I predicted. Anything above that would've been too harsh.
But, I don't get why did they increase frames from his getup attack. I think it is a good move, but I can't see the reason.
 

Zviko

Noob
At least he can't cancel into rising star if down pokes are flawless blocked. That's an indirect nerf to him too so he should be fine now.
 
I agree with these nerfs. They added 2f to his Low/High forceballs, like I predicted. Anything above that would've been too harsh.
But, I don't get why did they increase frames from his getup attack. I think it is a good move, but I can't see the reason.
Yeah the Wake Up U2 nerf seemed odd but I'll take it. Not gonna lie I was kind of anticipating JC getting deleted from the game with this patch lol