Johnny Cage Living MU Discussion

[Name v.5.0]

Figured it was time to do some MU numbers and discuss them. These are my personal thoughts on MU numbers at this point. Feel free to disagree....



Baraka 5-5

Cassie 4-6

Cetrion 5-5

Dvorah Unknown (Does anyone have significant experience in this MU?)

Erron Black 4-6

Frost 5-5

Geras 6-4

Jacqui 4-6

Jade 4-6

Jax 5-5

Kabal 5-5

Kano 5-5

Kitana 4-6

Kollector 5-5

Kotal 5-5

Kung Lao 5-5

Liu Kang 5-5

Noob 5-5

Raiden 5-5

Scorpion 5-5

Shao Khan 5-5

Skarlet 4-6

Sonya 4-6

Sub Zero 5-5



Winning MU: 1
Losing MU: 7
Even MU: 16

 

[M.D.]

Is that:

Jaqui 5-5

A placeholder or the actual matchup number? Because I don't know whether I should throw myself over the balcony or think about the true matchup numbers.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Is that:

Jaqui 5-5

A placeholder or the actual matchup number? Because I don't know whether I should throw myself over the balcony or think about the true matchup numbers.

This is a conservative take on it. I've played what feels like hundreds of jacquis at this point and one thing is for sure. Johnny is in control, everywhere but the corner or when she's on top of you. I play the whole match by running away and zoning. Puts all the risk on her side. What's the issue you're having?

 

[M.D.]

Well, first of all she has a female hitbox, so she can block while ducking under your projectiles, which rules out any risk to catch her with an f4 or b3 while she's advancing or put any kind of pressure on her with your strings into ex fireballs.

Then, once she gets in, parry doesn't work as it's 12 frame startup so you will get f3 out of it. Then it's all game over as you have to peel her off you, which you can't as you can't get your turn back with anything except d1 into throw if they don't tech.

And third, she will most surely get in. You can't "zone" her in the proper saying of the term, as she will just slowly move towards you to win over you with her better buttons.

Any string you do in her and she blocks, it's her turn directly, with no guess or mixup.

I can't feel pretty much balanced when playing against a good Jacqui, I feel I have to work very hard to not let her in, and then try to find that one gap to get her off me while she goes to town on staggers grabs and full combos.


Also, I can't see any female hitbox char being more than 4-6. It literally nullifies half your char.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Well, first of all she has a female hitbox, so she can block while ducking under your projectiles, which rules out any risk to catch her with an f4 or b3 while she's advancing or put any kind of pressure on her with your strings into ex fireballs.

Then, once she gets in, parry doesn't work as it's 12 frame startup so you will get f3 out of it. Then it's all game over as you have to peel her off you, which you can't as you can't get your turn back with anything except d1 into throw if they don't tech.

And third, she will most surely get in. You can't "zone" her in the proper saying of the term, as she will just slowly move towards you to win over you with her better buttons.

Any string you do in her and she blocks, it's her turn directly, with no guess or mixup.

I can't feel pretty much balanced when playing against a good Jacqui, I feel I have to work very hard to not let her in, and then try to find that one gap to get her off me while she goes to town on staggers grabs and full combos.

Ever use any pokes into specials? Jacquis cant seem to stop pushing buttons. D1~parry, D4~NP? Pokes followed by backdash? Risky reads are sometimes necessary, but they can pay off. Do them early, and she'll have to start respecting your pokes allowing for you to attempt offense.

Any combo you land, end in shadow kick. Make her have to come back to you every time, unless you're feeling a change up will help. Yes, she will eventually get in, but make sure you know your spacing for her B2 and Dash Punch. Make her pay to use them. Make her want to attempt a jump in. You can't just let her think it's free to be on top of you.

If she has to make reads and you have to make reads, you have to assume it's closer to even.

Edit: It's hard to make this MU a 4-6, because what would that make the Cassie MU?

 

[M.D.]

Pokes into specials are gimmicks, sure they work in a 2 out of 3 in ranked but with a long set with a skilled player?

If you poke on block you get f3'ed directly, special doesn't come out. On hit, but you have to make perfect reads after that.

I see it as a lot of work, more work than Jacqui puts for us.

And Cassie MU, L()L.

 

[Frank Reed]

I think Jade is his worst matchup. She takes away his zoning and you can’t play in his f3 or f4 range because of the range on her buttons and and specials. The poke game sucks too because her pokes are so fast. I think the 4-6 is generous. More like a 3-7 at best for me.

I think Erron is more of a 5-5. I’d be curious what makes him a 4-6. Fighting him is 100% just matchup knowledge IMO.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Pokes into specials are gimmicks, sure they work in a 2 out of 3 in ranked but with a long set with a skilled player?

If you poke on block you get f3'ed directly, special doesn't come out. On hit, but you have to make perfect reads after that.

I see it as a lot of work, more work than Jacqui puts for us.

And Cassie MU, L()L.

I don't want to misunderstand you here...Are you saying if I do D1~parry, it wont come out because D1 was blocked? Or it won't come out because she can slide a F3 in there? The former I know works, and the latter seems to fucking catch every person who has ever tried to poke back with a D1 which is faster than her F3. Hell, in a poke war, D4(on block)~nut punch has served me quite well. If the opponent is patient and blocks instead of taking their turn, then you get proper fucked because you threw out NP or Parry. It happens. It's a risk. That's fighting games. Also...Gimmick or not, it can change the entire fight if it works. How gimmicky it feels is irrelevant.

So you're then are you saying the Jacqui player is going to anticipate this move every single time and get a F3 on reaction? I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm trying to understand what you mean.

You made it a point to mention that Jacqui will just block everything you do. What about us? What does Jacqui do that's so unblockable? I needed to point this out. She can do her cancels all day and never open you up. Is it not just as much trouble for her to open us up at a high level? You can D1 her, get a free D4, and maybe start offense. Maybe it's all blocked. Who cares. All our strings are safe. If everything is blocked perfectly, it's a stale mate.

 

[Name v.5.0]

I think Jade is his worst matchup. She takes away his zoning and you can’t play in his f3 or f4 range because of the range on her buttons and and specials. The poke game sucks too because her pokes are so fast. I think the 4-6 is generous. More like a 3-7 at best for me.

I think Erron is more of a 5-5. I’d be curious what makes him a 4-6. Fighting him is 100% just matchup knowledge IMO.

I agree. I want to call it a 3-7, but you gotta remember the meta is still evolving, and there's still key elements like Flawless block that we can't take into account. Flawless Block may change everything. Want to keep this conservative for now.

But yeah...That MU is really fucking rough. She literally takes away anything that gives Johnny power.


And about Erron...

He has an edge due to his ability to control the playing field. Nullifies your forceballs, has control of your space, has 50/50s and out damages you...not to mention his god like fatal blow. Do you ever feel like you have the upper hand against an Erron Black player that is really good? This is one MU I believe could become a 5-5, but I'm just not sure it is currently. His tools are just too good.

 

[M.D.]

snip

Nah it's ok, we're discussing facts here, I'm not the usual tryhard elitist that takes every argument to heart that I suck at the game.
The idea is I know I suck at the game, so I'm trying to use facts and math to make it better.

You're making it sound like I said the matchup was 0-10. I see it as a 4-6 because we can poke, she can poke, the only difference is she sometimes pokes back with a full 40%, which we will never get in close quarters unless we sneak in a d4 nut.

It's doable, but for me it feels she has better options. It's a 9 frame mid into a block mixup /throw / full combo. We have the same except the full combo part, so in the long run (matchup wise) I see it that we still lose. Not horribly (cassie, jade), but barely.

Plus, she still has her KBs. We don't. That's an advantage she has over us as we suddenly lose chunks of life we can't catch up with.

Noow..if we had our fireballs not whiff on her crouch block...and our s1 and s2 not whiff either, and some viable KBs, then ohoooo, the matchup will most definitively tilt big time in our favor.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Nah it's ok, we're discussing facts here, I'm not the usual tryhard elitist that takes every argument to heart that I suck at the game.
The idea is I know I suck at the game, so I'm trying to use facts and math to make it better.

You're making it sound like I said the matchup was 0-10. I see it as a 4-6 because we can poke, she can poke, the only difference is she sometimes pokes back with a full 40%, which we will never get in close quarters unless we sneak in a d4 nut.

It's doable, but for me it feels she has better options. It's a 9 frame mid into a block mixup /throw / full combo. We have the same except the full combo part, so in the long run (matchup wise) I see it that we still lose. Not horribly (cassie, jade), but barely.

Gotcha. I really didnt want to make it seem like you thought it was 0-10. Your assessment may very well be correct. I'd love to hear from more Cage mains to get their thoughts.

All I know is, I'd rather fight Jacqui than Cassie, Jade, or Skarlet.

 

[jonesy261]

Anyone got any advice for the kollector matchup? I don’t have much knowledge for the character in general. My biggest problem is that I don’t know when to stop blocking his strings ready for the punish, an extra hit always comes out that seems to lead to a full combo just for letting go of block at the wrong time. Also, when I can punish, is f3 and f4 always the best option due to kollectors long reaching normals? Thanks guys

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Talk to me about Geras, surprisingly haven’t played a lot.

I think Johnny does well against Liu Kang but I could see it still being even

 

[Name v.5.0]

Anyone got any advice for the kollector matchup? I don’t have much knowledge for the character in general. My biggest problem is that I don’t know when to stop blocking his strings ready for the punish, an extra hit always comes out that seems to lead to a full combo just for letting go of block at the wrong time. Also, when I can punish, is f3 and f4 always the best option due to kollectors long reaching normals? Thanks guys

Torment him with Forceballs and get a life lead. Your only real concern at range is his Bola, but it's shit. Too far and it's reactable, too close and you can punish with Shadow Kick.

Up close he has some tools, like staggers and mixups but can't actually do a ton of damage. So understand his strings. His mixup strings are both punishable, but even if you get hit, it doesn't lead to much for him. JC's range is better though. Fuck with him. F3 staggers, F3 into throws, D4 into dash up throws, D4's into F3 of F4, F4~Caged Rage. Don't let him figure out what your doing. Keep mixing is up. He has mids right up close, so own your space. Be within F3 range and use it to your advantage. He doesn't really have many options there. Make him go back to full screen and go back to tormenting him with Forceballs.

Johnny completely controls the pace of the match if you know what you're doing.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Talk to me about Geras, surprisingly haven’t played a lot.

I think Johnny does well against Liu Kang but I could see it still being even

Geras is an oki machine. Get knocked down and then pressured with Frog Splashes, 111 mixups, throws, and F212. Personally I think Frog Splashes are easy to D2. The 111 shit....you just gotta hold that, there's nothing you can do if he get's it off except guess. Throws....get better at teching....

This is the best part though. Geras' best tool is F212. Block the first F2, and then neutral duck. The follow up 1 will completely whiff and you can punish with 34~combo. He will have to almost completely abandon the string. The only trick is that he may start using F22 which is mid and then low. You've just taken his best tool away from him. Since we D4 all day, 111 and 241 can't be done raw. We'll always beat it. What's left?

Sand trap can always be punished within his DB1F input range with shadow kick, so if you're in your F3 range, he wont attempt it unless it's a yolo.

No overhead or low starters....

Seriously...What's he going to do? I wanted to mark this one 7-3, but again...I'm being conservative.

 

[mrapchem]

Torment him with Forceballs and get a life lead. Your only real concern at range is his Bola, but it's shit. Too far and it's reactable, too close and you can punish with Shadow Kick.

Up close he has some tools, like staggers and mixups but can't actually do a ton of damage. So understand his strings. His mixup strings are both punishable, but even if you get hit, it doesn't lead to much for him. JC's range is better though. Fuck with him. F3 staggers, F3 into throws, D4 into dash up throws, D4's into F3 of F4, F4~Caged Rage. Don't let him figure out what your doing. Keep mixing is up. He has mids right up close, so own your space. Be within F3 range and use it to your advantage. He doesn't really have many options there. Make him go back to full screen and go back to tormenting him with Forceballs.

Johnny completely controls the pace of the match if you know what you're doing.

That sounds like exactly what Cage should be doing in every single match right there! I love this breakdown of his options. Excellent post.

 

[jonesy261]

Torment him with Forceballs and get a life lead. Your only real concern at range is his Bola, but it's shit. Too far and it's reactable, too close and you can punish with Shadow Kick.

Up close he has some tools, like staggers and mixups but can't actually do a ton of damage. So understand his strings. His mixup strings are both punishable, but even if you get hit, it doesn't lead to much for him. JC's range is better though. Fuck with him. F3 staggers, F3 into throws, D4 into dash up throws, D4's into F3 of F4, F4~Caged Rage. Don't let him figure out what your doing. Keep mixing is up. He has mids right up close, so own your space. Be within F3 range and use it to your advantage. He doesn't really have many options there. Make him go back to full screen and go back to tormenting him with Forceballs.

Johnny completely controls the pace of the match if you know what you're doing.

Thanks, I’ll give that a good testing. I struggle with the Forceballs pressure from a range because I’m constantly anticipating his teleport and even then I seem to struggle reacting to it. I suppose a throw would have done when I look back on my sets the other day. Then from doing a throw we have the momentum switch and knockdown pressure. Am I on the right lines here?

 

[Name v.5.0]

Thanks, I’ll give that a good testing. I struggle with the Forceballs pressure from a range because I’m constantly anticipating his teleport and even then I seem to struggle reacting to it. I suppose a throw would have done when I look back on my sets the other day. Then from doing a throw we have the momentum switch and knockdown pressure. Am I on the right lines here?

Yeah, I shoulda made that more clear. You can't just throw forceballs for days. The idea is that you're keeping him back and baiting out bolas and teleports. Teleport is full combo punishable. He's stupid to use it to get around your zoning.

Once you knock him down you can go at him with whatever you want. Or backup and continue to pester him.

 

[Espio]

I think he does fine against Jade, people approaching match ups too linearly. Making a big deal about Cage's zoning when he's not a zoner versus her is odd. If you actually block Jade's advancing staff buttons she's negative enough that you can definitely approach and check her She also doesn't do insane damage so it's not like she out classes you there.

She outfootsies us, but 7-3 at best is a good joke as if people have grinded that hard. 4-6 sure okay, but implying 2-8 or even 3-7 is silly.

 

[jonesy261]

Yeah, I shoulda made that more clear. You can't just throw forceballs for days. The idea is that you're keeping him back and baiting out bolas and teleports. Teleport is full combo punishable. He's stupid to use it to get around your zoning.

Once you knock him down you can go at him with whatever you want. Or backup and continue to pester him.

I suppose it just comes down to making good reads in the first place, but what suggestions do you have to punish the teleport in terms of starters. It seems like he teleports and then starts a string, do I block the string and then punish or just punish the teleport before he gets chance to throw the string out?

 

[Name v.5.0]

I suppose it just comes down to making good reads in the first place, but what suggestions do you have to punish the teleport in terms of starters. It seems like he teleports and then starts a string, do I block the string and then punish or just punish the teleport before he gets chance to throw the string out?

It has like 40 frames of recovery, plus if you're paying attention to him you'll see him input the first Down in the DD3. Careful though, he could bait you. You should be able to punish it with 12~combo. Honestly though, I think you can 34~combo which will net you about another 5% damage. I've gotten stuck in my ways with the 12 punish...something I'm working on correcting. Just pop into the lab and record Kollector teleporting and immediately blocking. Play it back and see if you can 34~combo his ass. I'll do the same when I get home.

 

[Frank Reed]

I think he does fine against Jade, people approaching match ups too linearly. Making a big deal about Cage's zoning when he's not a zoner versus her is odd. If you actually block Jade's advancing staff buttons she's negative enough that you can definitely approach and check her She also doesn't do insane damage so it's not like she out classes you there.

She outfootsies us, but 7-3 at best is a good joke as if people have grinded that hard. 4-6 sure okay, but implying 2-8 or even 3-7 is silly.

What do you check her with? I always feel like I’m too far away to check her with a f3 or f4 after blocking.

 

[Name v.5.0]

What do you check her with? I always feel like I’m too far away to check her with a f3 or f4 after blocking.

This. F3 seems to get poked and D2'd quite a bit, D4 is way too short, F4 doesn't lead to anything significant, and you cant check her full screen. Even when you have more health, you're forced to chase her. Always playing into her hands. It's so fucking rough.

 

[Espio]

What do you check her with? I always feel like I’m too far away to check her with a f3 or f4 after blocking.

Let's break this down.

I play Jade and Cage.

Jade's back 2 is -13 and even when spaced PERFECTLY forward 4 reaches. If she cancel into butterfly on your block you either punish or get pressure. If she cancels into shadow kick you get a punish even if she amplified it. If she cancels into low spark same deal.

Back 1,2 is punishable at MAX distance by shadow kick. If she cancels into low spark, that is also shadow kick punishable

Forward 2,1 is -13 and even when max range spaced still gets checked by Forward 4. Once you condition properly with forward 4 you can then start throwing an doing Forward 3,4,4 or other options

Back 3,4,3,4 spaces her out and is plus, but since it's plus you're not checking her anyway. It has a flawless block gap and if she staggers it she is -7 on back 3,4,3 and -2 on back 3 by itself.

All of her staff strings and cancels leave her punishable or caught in pressure.

You can also punish bad glow attempts with shadow kick and send her packing to the corner where her wake ups are whatever and Johnny Cage's low pokes low profile a lot of wake ups.

This. F3 seems to get poked and D2'd quite a bit, D4 is way too short, F4 doesn't lead to anything significant, and you cant check her full screen. Even when you have more health, you're forced to chase her. Always playing into her hands. It's so fucking rough.

The question was what can he check with, not whether it leads to much. Jade hits you for about the same damage if she lands back 2 shadow kick as forward 4,4.

If you're dealing with a down 2 masher, walk back after plus frames and forward 3 into combo into reset. Down 2's are -42 on whiff so definitely very doable punish.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Let's break this down.

I play Jade and Cage.

Jade's back 2 is -13 and even when spaced PERFECTLY forward 4 reaches. If she cancel into butterfly on your block you either punish or get pressure. If she cancels into shadow kick you get a punish even if she amplified it. If she cancels into low spark same deal.

Back 1,2 is punishable at MAX distance by shadow kick. If she cancels into low spark, that is also shadow kick punishable

Forward 2,1 is -13 and even when max range spaced still gets checked by Forward 4. Once you condition properly with forward 4 you can then start throwing an doing Forward 3,4,4 or other options

Back 3,4,3,4 spaces her out and is plus, but since it's plus you're not checking her anyway. It has a flawless block gap and if she staggers it she is -7 on back 3,4,3 and -2 on back 3 by itself.

All of her staff strings and cancels leave her punishable or caught in pressure.

You can also punish bad glow attempts with shadow kick and send her packing to the corner where her wake ups are whatever and Johnny Cage's low pokes low profile a lot of wake ups.




The question was what can he check with, not whether it leads to much. Jade hits you for about the same damage if she lands back 2 shadow kick as forward 4,4.

If you're dealing with a down 2 masher, walk back after plus frames and forward 3 into combo into reset. Down 2's are -42 on whiff so definitely very doable punish.

You're actually describing how I attempt to play the MU. Except I probably go for F3 more than I should. I'm pretty sure my problem is impatience with the MU. Same issue I have with Skarlet. Thanks for posting this.