What's new

Jax General Discussion

6ixty9

Noob
You're right, I was about to edit my post to include j2, same for b1.

It isn't even optimal - just requires 30 seconds of practice, its really that easy. But what do I know, apparently my execution is F tier :rolleyes:.
I have practiced for an hr, couldn't get the dash cancels 2 in a row. Easy for you, hard for others. If you can do it then great but a lot won't be able to. The others are just trying to provide combos that literally anyone can do as there are minimal inputs and lenient timing
 

wsj515

This is my billionth life cycle.
I would rather have 5% less dmg for something I can hit 100% of the time than do a harder version which I might drop every now and then. ATIWAB gets this. Much appreciated.
You won't be able to do it in nearly as many situations, though. It really is easy to learn, and all of a sudden you can KB off of AA s1, and d2 with no heat. That's a real asset.

Edit - AA 1, 1, 12xxbf34 does 30% for no bar. That's ridiculous, I don't think any other character can do that off an anti air.
 

wsj515

This is my billionth life cycle.
I have practiced for an hr, couldn't get the dash cancels 2 in a row. Easy for you, hard for others. If you can do it then great but a lot won't be able to. The others are just trying to provide combos that literally anyone can do as there are minimal inputs and lenient timing
Maybe I can help - is there a specific part of the combo you are dropping?
 

ATIWAB

Noob
you use it to low-profile and full combo punish, not mix. If you try and mix, you're going to get destroyed vs. a player who knows what they're doing.
My comment is specifically referring to the Kabal MU where he's zoning you out or keeping you at his optimal range without you being able to get into yours -- the entire point of mentioning it as a mix is that once you condition them to stop trying to zone with the saws because they get punished for it/feed you heat with Briggs Barricade, you're still going to need a way to close the distance between his optimal range and yours. The BF2 counters the "we can't get close to Kabal" problem. That's when you "low profile and full combo punish." That gets readable, blockable, and punishable though, and then you need to mix.

The basic idea with the GB/Kabal MU (can only speak for his Clean Cut variation though) is that once you've conditioned him to think he's going to get low profiled and punished for saws/that you're just going to eat them, you never try to advance into your optimal range from HIS optimal range -- instead you backdash until you're at 3/4 screen distance to avoid his advancing F3 (w/ DB3 restand), forcing him to either a) walk to you and potentially eat the BF2 Amp or b) try more saws or c) make a very telegraphed nomad dash. (You use the BF2 Hold into DD cancel and block to bait the nomad dash.) Once you hit this a couple times you start conditioning him to think you're going to hit him with the BF2 amp launcher on every advance, so he'll start to advance and then block to bait your BF2 and punish -- that's when you can start to play mind games with the delays and cancels and mixing in the low toss (so he'll do the same but low block) and then add in the 4OH ender/4 amp into other combos.

Essentially any time you find yourself at his optimal range but not yours, you just out-zone him at 3/4 until you can BF2 into range for full combo punish, which puts you on top of him for a little bit, then repeat if he gets back out of your range. Once he catches on, you use the BF2 cancel as dash bait or as a mix to get in with the OH/Amp OH launcher for another full combo. You should have plenty of opportunity to stay in close on him over a several game set if you backdash to 3/4 screen and bait every time he's at his optimal range and you're not at yours.

It doesn't work as well in HD because you don't have the same options off BF2 to play the same mind games with.

As a writeup it's long, but over the course of the actual game you really only need 2-3 opportunities to actually do this and end up right back on top of him. The mind games only come into play over longer sets, or if it's someone that does a lot of raw nomad dashes to close the gap (but then you don't really have to worry about getting in close on him anymore, at which point none of this is necessary and you can just beat him in HD).
 

wsj515

This is my billionth life cycle.
My comment is specifically referring to the Kabal MU where he's zoning you out or keeping you at his optimal range without you being able to get into yours -- the entire point of mentioning it as a mix is that once you condition them to stop trying to zone with the saws because they get punished for it/feed you heat with Briggs Barricade, you're still going to need a way to close the distance between his optimal range and yours. The BF2 counters the "we can't get close to Kabal" problem. That's when you "low profile and full combo punish." That gets readable, blockable, and punishable though, and then you need to mix.

The basic idea with the GB/Kabal MU (can only speak for his Clean Cut variation though) is that once you've conditioned him to think he's going to get low profiled and punished for saws/that you're just going to eat them, you never try to advance into your optimal range from HIS optimal range -- instead you backdash until you're at 3/4 screen distance to avoid his advancing F3 (w/ DB3 restand), forcing him to either a) walk to you and potentially eat the BF2 Amp or b) try more saws or c) make a very telegraphed nomad dash. (You use the BF2 Hold into DD cancel and block to bait the nomad dash.) Once you hit this a couple times you start conditioning him to think you're going to hit him with the BF2 amp launcher on every advance, so he'll start to advance and then block to bait your BF2 and punish -- that's when you can start to play mind games with the delays and cancels and mixing in the low toss (so he'll do the same but low block) and then add in the 4OH ender/4 amp into other combos.

Essentially any time you find yourself at his optimal range but not yours, you just out-zone him at 3/4 until you can BF2 into range for full combo punish, which puts you on top of him for a little bit, then repeat if he gets back out of your range. Once he catches on, you use the BF2 cancel as dash bait or as a mix to get in with the OH/Amp OH launcher for another full combo. You should have plenty of opportunity to stay in close on him over a several game set if you backdash to 3/4 screen and bait every time he's at his optimal range and you're not at yours.

It doesn't work as well in HD because you don't have the same options off BF2 to play the same mind games with.

As a writeup it's long, but over the course of the actual game you really only need 2-3 opportunities to actually do this and end up right back on top of him. The mind games only come into play over longer sets, or if it's someone that does a lot of raw nomad dashes to close the gap (but then you don't really have to worry about getting in close on him anymore, at which point none of this is necessary and you can just beat him in HD).
Firstly - the oh/low options of bf2 aren't a mix up - the low is 12f, the oh is 29f - you can easily react. If you can't react, its still an incredibly easy fuzzy block, Jax even makes a weird robot grunt that telegraphs the oh.

But no good Kabal is going to straight zone you (let alone just throw out nomad dash). Anyone who knows the Jax matchup realizes that we get free heat if they throw projectiles at full screen. They will play mid screen, threatening b1, buzz saw, air buzz saw, j3/4, j2. At this range, you will not be able to react to a buzz saw, so you need to make a hard read in order to punish with bf2EX. However, bf2EX is full combo punishable on block, and any variation of bf2 is also very susceptible to whiff punishing. A good Kabal will bait this over and over, either walking back to punish, or jump back j2.

I'm still not 100% on which variation is best in this matchup, as HD's bf2 is incredible in footsie range, where Kabal bullies us. We don't lose from getting zoned out.
 

ATIWAB

Noob
Firstly - the oh/low options of bf2 aren't a mix up - the low is 12f, the oh is 29f - you can easily react
lol

stopped reading here tbh, not interested in your theory craft vs. things I've actually done and seen work countless times, thanks for your input
 

wsj515

This is my billionth life cycle.
lol

stopped reading here tbh, not interested in your theory craft vs. things I've actually done and seen work countless times, thanks for your input
I thought you could react to Jax's tick throw, which is significantly faster than the overhead?
 

ATIWAB

Noob
Then you should have absolutely no problem reacting, or at least fuzzying bf2.
... Are you having a stroke?

a) you don't low-profile either of the mix options on the BF2 so this isn't even relevant;
b) I'm not the Kabal player so this isn't even relevant.

Why are you consistently the most obnoxious person in this thread? J/w.
 

wsj515

This is my billionth life cycle.
... Are you having a stroke?

a) you don't low-profile either of the mix options on the BF2 so this isn't even relevant;
b) I'm not the Kabal player so this isn't even relevant.

Why are you consistently the most obnoxious person in this thread? J/w.
You think I'm obnoxious because I have views contrary to yours. You also give out a lot of misinformation, which I correct. I'm not going to go into the quad grab thing again but what you claim is factually wrong, there's literally no room for opinion if you understand this game's basic mechanics. Don't like what I have to say? Block me and be done with it.
 

ATIWAB

Noob
You think I'm obnoxious because I have views contrary to yours. You also give out a lot of misinformation, which I correct. I'm not going to go into the quad grab thing again but what you claim is factually wrong, there's literally no room for opinion if you understand this game's basic mechanics. Don't like what I have to say? Block me and be done with it.
"You give out a lot of misinformation"

You, today alone:

• "you can get the missile KB off B2 1 12 from 0 heat" -- had to correct you personally.
• "the bf2 low and overhead options that you are able to select on demand off the same initial input aren't a mix-up" -- not even worth "correcting" because it's such an idiotic thing to say.

I think you're obnoxious because you're a theorycrafting know-it-all dweeb, yet still consistently wrong with zero useful contributions to this thread.

Hope this helps.
 

wsj515

This is my billionth life cycle.
"You give out a lot of misinformation"

You, today alone:

• "you can get the missile KB off B2 1 12 from 0 heat" -- had to correct you personally.
• "the bf2 low and overhead options that you are able to select on demand off the same initial input aren't a mix-up" -- not even worth "correcting" because it's such an idiotic thing to say.

I think you're obnoxious because you're a theorycrafting know-it-all dweeb, yet still consistently wrong with zero useful contributions to this thread.

Hope this helps.
Lol, the first thing was a typo - I admitted my mistake and was in the process of editing it when you replied, but cool.
As for second, you do whatever works for you. If this Kombat League works as advertised and you attempt to climb the ranks, remember me when you hit the first decent player that knows even the tiniest bit of the matchup.

I'm the one theorycafting when someone else is living in some fantasy land where kabal is zoning/nomad dashing full screen :rolleyes:
 

ATIWAB

Noob
Lol, the first thing was a typo - I admitted my mistake and was in the process of editing it when you replied, but cool.
As for second, you do whatever works for you. If this Kombat League works as advertised and you attempt to climb the ranks, remember me when you hit the first decent player that knows even the tiniest bit of the matchup.

I'm the one theorycafting when someone else is living in some fantasy land where kabal is zoning/nomad dashing full screen :rolleyes:
I can tell you don't know what you're talking about because you still don't understand the conditioning of that MU.

The "nomad dashing full screen" is when you start baiting with the delayed BF2.

Again -- this is me talking about something I've done, and you responding with no clue what you're talking about.

Repeating pattern.

Also, trying to deny that a literal mixup is a mixup because of a difference in frame data just makes you look goofy.
 

wsj515

This is my billionth life cycle.
I can tell you don't know what you're talking about because you still don't understand the conditioning of that MU.

The "nomad dashing full screen" is when you start baiting with the delayed BF2.

Again -- this is me talking about something I've done, and you responding with no clue what you're talking about.

Repeating pattern.

Also, trying to deny that a literal mixup is a mixup because of a difference in frame data just makes you look goofy.
And this is me talking about a matchup I've played a lot as well. If that's working for you, great, but if the Kabal player is falling for that, you could have beaten them any which way you want, because they are not good player.
 

UPR_Nova

Jax/Geras/Baraka
Premium Supporter
Lol I'm not trying to start anything but if you take GB to a tournament and start using bf2 like that, it's gonna be a bad time.
 

wsj515

This is my billionth life cycle.
Lol I'm not trying to start anything but if you take GB to a tournament and start using bf2 like that, it's gonna be a bad time.
Stating facts is not starting anything, particularly in this pretty cut and dry situation. You only risk being called a theory crafter.

I will say that occasionally mixing in regular bf2 canceled from f33 can be decent - has good pushback on block so the opponent will often whiff if they decide to poke rather than commit to a string.
 

ATIWAB

Noob
GB bf2 is not mix. It's reactable, full combo punishable, and has a monster gap on block. It's there for midscreen damage and full screen movement against projectiles. That really needs to be stressed.
Sounds like you're confusing two FG concepts: true 50/50s vs. mixups.

BF2 delayed at range into either the OH or low or the mid is absolutely a mix.

"It's reactable" doesn't make something not a mix. Definition of mix is that it's the same starter but can end in several different outcomes. Sub has mixes too that are also "reactable." Can cancel into slide or end in OH, etc. Doesn't make them not mixes, makes them not true 50/50s though.

It also works at 3/4 screen against advancing opponents, there's no "it's only for projectiles hurr durr" limit except for ones you impose on yourself. Not understanding/utilizing mind games with GB is your own play style limitation, not a limitation of the special.
 

UPR_Nova

Jax/Geras/Baraka
Premium Supporter
Sounds like you're confusing two FG concepts: true 50/50s vs. mixups.

BF2 delayed at range into either the OH or low or the mid is absolutely a mix.

"It's reactable" doesn't make something not a mix. Definition of mix is that it's the same starter but can end in several different outcomes. Sub has mixes too that are also "reactable." Can cancel into slide or end in OH, etc. Doesn't make them not mixes, makes them not true 50/50s though.

It also works at 3/4 screen against advancing opponents, there's no "it's only for projectiles hurr durr" limit except for ones you impose on yourself. Not understanding/utilizing mind games with GB is your own play style limitation, not a limitation of the special.
Most importantly, at least in my opinion, the "hurr durr" is completely unnecessary. While I'm basically unknown, my experience covers numerous majors dating back to MK9. Some people may come to this forum and spew BS for likes, attention, and/or purposes of trolling but that's not the case for everyone here. When I comment on this forum it is backed by all of the aforementioned experience, and while I have never made a splash or a name for myself, it is clear to me what the highest level of NRS fighters looks and feels like. This thread seemingly loses control quite often and quite frankly, we all need a Jax kumbaya moment where we take a step back and relax.

Moving on, I believe what we would be arguing at this point is semantics, but that's not something that I want to entertain. What I can do, is rephrase what I said earlier in the thread: bf2 on block is shenanigans, good for those that don't know the matchup/animation of this, and for last hoorah attempts when behind. It very well may work against some players; I don't doubt that in the slightest. However, I'll repeat myself in saying that if you do that in tournament, you're gonna have a bad time. If you consider it mix, that's fine. Maybe I need to hold that when I said it isn't mix, and that's completely fair. But it's not good mix and that's not something that can really be argued.

It is exceptional for moving in against projectiles, can be used for max range trip guards (mainly with whiffed normals into projectiles), and those in combination with the projectile parry, give GB utility that HD simply doesn't have. It's not great, it's not bad. It's just a solid tool.

We'll probably get to the point where we just agree to disagree, which is fine, but personal attacks/trying to make others look stupid is ridiculous. I simply tried to make a statement backed by TONS of things that I've seen/done playing against the best of the best. We all (at least most of us) main Jax. I think all we're trying to do he is help each other.
 

ATIWAB

Noob
If you consider it mix, that's fine. Maybe I need to hold that when I said it isn't mix, and that's completely fair.

We'll probably get to the point where we just agree to disagree, which is fine
We're already there.

• We agree you're wrong about it "not being a mix." It's not a true 50/50, so if that's what you meant, nobody's arguing that it is. This isn't semantics, they are two fundamentally different concepts. We've already gotten past that, which was the main point of your first post.
• You think it's a bad tool for mixing from 3/4 screen on an advancing opponent. I don't.
• "It has a monster gap on block" isn't really an argument against it, so do a lot of mixes in this game -- see aforementioned SZ example -- but beyond that, the OH and mid are both only -7 on block so unless someone is reacting on a 1-frame link with a 6f D1 or instantly with a 7f poke, you can still block if it gets blocked, so nah, it's not that unsafe. The low is definitely unsafe at -17, which is why you need to condition them to think it's not going to be the low before throwing it out. The low is the weakest of the three options anyway, since it can't be followed up on with any significant damage. It's for a) corner carry and b) mindgames at range, especially in MUs like Kabal where most aren't used to Jax getting in on him so easily, and opening up the OH.
 

wsj515

This is my billionth life cycle.
We're already there.

• We agree you're wrong about it "not being a mix." It's not a true 50/50, so if that's what you meant, nobody's arguing that it is. This isn't semantics, they are two fundamentally different concepts. We've already gotten past that, which was the main point of your first post.
• You think it's a bad tool for mixing from 3/4 screen on an advancing opponent. I don't.
• "It has a monster gap on block" isn't really an argument against it, so do a lot of mixes in this game -- see aforementioned SZ example -- but beyond that, the OH and mid are both only -7 on block so unless someone is reacting on a 1-frame link with a 6f D1 or instantly with a 7f poke, you can still block if it gets blocked, so nah, it's not that unsafe. The low is definitely unsafe at -17, which is why you need to condition them to think it's not going to be the low before throwing it out. The low is the weakest of the three options anyway, since it can't be followed up on with any significant damage. It's for a) corner carry and b) mindgames at range, especially in MUs like Kabal where most aren't used to Jax getting in on him so easily, and opening up the OH.
The reason why it's unsafe, incredibly at that, is because it is very slow and telegraphed, especially at max range/ 3/4s screen. It isn't unsafe because of the frame data on block, but because it is naturally beaten by just walking backwards or jumping. If they are not throwing a projectile, they are either walking back, jumping, or pressing a long range button, which will all beat anything from bf2. This is why you can only use it on a projectile read.

Vs. Kabal this can be suicide, as his b1 is one of the best long range buttons in the game. If he's not autopilot throwing projectiles, he will interrupt/whiff punish a bf2 attempt into full combo every time.