Is New Era better than Infinite Warden after the patch?

[Name v.5.0]

I played with New Era all weekend. I have to say, I think New Era is better than Infinite Warden now. Being able to combo off of F21 is so damn huge. Not only does Geras get big damage now, the opponent has to decide if Geras is going to go for F2~command grab, or F21~BF1. Hell, you could jiD2, F2~DD(a), wait for a whiff, and then command grab, or micro dash in for a whiff punish. There's plus frames off S3, and S3~DD(A) makes you plus 8, standing right next to your opponent. I've only just begun labbing New Era again, but there's going to be some real dirt here now.

TLDR: New Era has more options up close than Infinite Warden.

New Era also runs people to the corner with his command grab. This makes getting the F11+3 KB far easier to get than Infinite Warden. F212, F11+3KB does like 33 percent meterless. Including the amped sand pillar setups, New Era is better in the corner than Infinite Warden. Oh, and lets not forget that it's not all that uncommon to get the command grab KB while on your way to the corner.

TLDR: New Era seems to be better in the corner

I could be wrong here, and I think it's up for debate, but New Era does a better job zoning. I understand Infinite Warden's sand puddle is better than New Era's, but your opponent being able to jump hinders that. Characters like Jade or Kabal can jump and then throw a projectile. New Era can use his sand pillar to knock them out of the sky. Add in amped sand pillar and you can lock people down better with New Era than you can Infinite Warden...especially after the requirement changes of the sand puddle KB.

TLDR: New Era may have better zoning capabilities than Infinite Warden.

In my opinion, the only thing Infinite Warden does better, is pure damage output. It's honestly not even that much better. maybe 30-50 more damage per combo (without charged fist). So what about Infinite Warden is actually better at this point? I honestly am not a Geras expert, so I'd love to see what you guys think. Fire away.

 

[kcd117]

Quicksand trap means you don’t get to play neutral against IW. As long as the move stays like that, the variation that has it will be the better variation.

 

[Juggs]

Quicksand trap means you don’t get to play neutral against IW. As long as the move stays like that, the variation that has it will be the better variation.

What? You definitely can play neutral vs Infinite Warden.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Quicksand trap means you don’t get to play neutral against IW. As long as the move stays like that, the variation that has it will be the better variation.

That seems a little overly simplistic...The threat of the KB is all but gone. You can jump it. He wouldn't dare fire it off within jump in range, and i'm pretty sure a lot of characters can punish it just out side of jump in range. We're not talking about Scorpion's teleport here...

 

[John Grizzly]

I need to ask a dumb question - what can New Era combo into midscreen off F21 now?

 

[Name v.5.0]

I need to ask a dumb question - what can New Era combo into midscreen off F21 now?

It's that time freezing move, BF1(A). He wasnt able to combo into BF1 after F21 before the patch. Now he can.

F21~BF1(A), dash, D2, D2, JiD2, F3~BF2 gets you 30%.

 

[kcd117]

What? You definitely can play neutral vs Infinite Warden.

That seems a little overly simplistic...The threat of the KB is all but gone. You can jump it. He wouldn't dare fire it off within jump in range, and i'm pretty sure a lot of characters can punish it just outside of jump in range. We're not talking about Scorpion's teleport here...

The constant threat of a low, projectile invincible move that puts you in his oki blender when you get hit is just too good to pass on. Playing against IW means you have to constantly block low or make preemptive jump attempts to avoid that. Many character's neutral games are severely mitigated as they either don't have a strong air game or need to put stuff on the screen to establish their gameplan.

I worded it wrong when I said you don't get to play neutral. What I meant is that you don't get to play your character's neutral. For most of the cast, the quicksand trap alone means you have to play his game.

NE is good tho, the cmd grab has lots of potential. I just don't think any of Geras' moves are even comparable with quicksand trap and how strong of a tool it is for him in neutral.

 

[Name v.5.0]

The constant threat of a low, projectile invincible move that puts you in his oki blender when you get hit is just too good to pass on. Playing against IW means you have to constantly block low or make preemptive jump attempts to avoid that. Many character's neutral games are severely mitigated as they either don't have a strong air game or need to put stuff on the screen to establish their gameplan.

I worded it wrong when I said you don't get to play neutral. What I meant is that you don't get to play your character's neutral. For most of the cast, the quicksand trap alone means you have to play his game.

NE is good tho, the cmd grab has lots of potential. I just don't think any of Geras' moves are even comparable with quicksand trap and how strong of a tool it is for him in neutral.

That oki isn’t as good now without the threat of 1111+3KB. I’d say New Era’s oki is more dangerous, he just doesn’t get it as easily. I see where you’re coming from though.

 

[kcd117]

That oki isn’t as good now without the threat of 1111+3KB. I’d say New Era’s oki is more dangerous, he just doesn’t get it as easily. I see where you’re coming from though.

His strike/throw is still hella dumb tho. I can see New Era being better in the few matchups where the trap didn't make a huge difference.

 

[Eldagrin]

I think Infinite is probably still better. He can now charge gauntlet off like every touch and his 1 bar damage in infinite is pretty ridiculous once gauntlet is charged. The gap between the two of them is closer now for sure though.

 

[WhamBamThanxSam]

It's that time freezing move, BF1(A). He wasnt able to combo into BF1 after F21 before the patch. Now he can.

F21~BF1(A), dash, D2, D2, JiD2, F3~BF2 gets you 30%.

Infinite Warden has that same move. Why would New Era be able to and not Infinite Warden?

 

[Name v.5.0]

Infinite Warden has that same move. Why would New Era be able to and not Infinite Warden?

No one said IW couldn't. The point is that New Era couldn't combo off anything other than 11 before. Now he has a mid starter that combos for good damage. It's an enormous buff for this variation.

 

[craftycheese]

I wanted to give Kano a bring and try a different grappler. So I was thinking about picking up this variation. So I hope it don't better, don't want to be accuse of being a tier whore. Then again, I haven't got a lot of hate mail as Kano, so it could be a nice change of pace.

 

[Dreamcatcher]

New Era also runs people to the corner with his command grab. This makes getting the F11+3 KB far easier to get than Infinite Warden.

In changing the KB requirements, they definitely made this variation much more valuable.

 

[NariTuba]

Id say they´re pretty even at this point. NE has better corner game, plus frames and the tackle. IW has two more KBs, better sandtrap, gauntlet and damage.
NE has to work a bit harder.

I could be wrong here, and I think it's up for debate, but New Era does a better job zoning. I understand Infinite Warden's sand puddle is better than New Era's, but your opponent being able to jump hinders that. Characters like Jade or Kabal can jump and then throw a projectile. New Era can use his sand pillar to knock them out of the sky. Add in amped sand pillar and you can lock people down better with New Era than you can Infinite Warden...especially after the requirement changes of the sand puddle KB.

NE sand pillar doesnt stand a chance against any character with an air projectile. You have to be very precise and you get little damage and a knockdown that only helps you if you connected close. The gaps between the pillars are easy to exploit, hitbox is not wide (tho it is tall). It does help a bit once in a while but id trade it for the oki IW gets any day. Zoners are a problem, closing the gap means a lot. You´re not outzoning Kabal, Jade or Sub with NE if they play correctly, you spend the game trying to get in or pushing them to the corner.

F21 cancel was a buff for sure, id say it almost ties them up. NE now gets almost 30% with ridiculous corner carry midscreen up from 17% with ok carry (or 20% with the hard optimal)

 

[legion666]

Like Quick Sand for 14,5% damage, and Ability to go straight into throw/mid loop off it. Oh the difference in damage is huge, with charged gauntlet off f21 for 1 bar you get a 46% bnb) and corner combos go up to 60%+. Usable Quick Sand KB for 32% and a very practical Charged Gauntlet KB are a big deal as well. There are also nice 300+ combos which leave the opponent standing at like +12.
And although 111/11xxQuick Sand is fuzziable now, you can load your Quick sand KB, and if opponent messes up once - boom 32% and 34% KB on each option.

 

[ferdog8]

And although 111/11xxQuick Sand is fuzziable now, you can load your Quick sand KB, and if opponent messes up once - boom 32% and 34% KB on each option.

Maybe I'm being ignorant here, but I think NE can do BF1(A),D2 and go to the same situation. The hit counter doesn't track while the opponent is frozen, so if you hit the overhead you'll get the krushing blow and the sand trap has a KB attached if your opponent is blocking high.

 

[The_Tile]

Maybe I'm being ignorant here, but I think NE can do BF1(A),D2 and go to the same situation. The hit counter doesn't track while the opponent is frozen, so if you hit the overhead you'll get the krushing blow and the sand trap has a KB attached if your opponent is blocking high.

The low kb on NE doesn't work if performed off a string where it would combo on hit, so you aren't ever really gonna get it. Plus the restand combo only does like 15% if he doesn't have the level 3 fist charged which he only has access to in IW.

Also to answer the OPs question, I still think IW is a lot better than NE. IW is a better grappler than NE with the throw loops and he gets infinitely more damage when he actually lands a combo while also having access to way better KBs

 

[legion666]

Maybe I'm being ignorant here, but I think NE can do BF1(A),D2 and go to the same situation. The hit counter doesn't track while the opponent is frozen, so if you hit the overhead you'll get the krushing blow and the sand trap has a KB attached if your opponent is blocking high.

Basically what @The_Tile said. The restand In NE of f21 does 18% max, and if you go into 111 before the stun wears off it is even less. And with the charged Infinity Gauntlet IW gets a 30%+ combo into such restand. NE sand trap KB doesn’t work as a cancel off strings but IW’s Quick Sand KB does if it is loaded.
There is a way to make it work for NE where you spend a bar to set up an Amp Pillar and go for 11xxSand Trap, if timed right for the pillar to hit after 11 the Sand trap will KB if they stand block since the game somehow doesn’t count it as a cancel off 11 when the blockstun of the Amp pillar interrupts it. But that is another bar of meter if done off the restand and NE sand trap KB only does 21%. So you get the same damage as a 1 bar bnb in total. It has it’s place as an oki set up but if opponent is aware of what’s going on there are ways to avoid the mix.

 

[legion666]

I also don’t understand why NE spends offensive meter on his Stepping it back cancels! I think it would make sense to spend the defensive one.

 

[Name v.5.0]

IW is a better grappler than NE with the throw loops and he gets infinitely more damage when he actually lands a combo while also having access to way better KBs

Better grappler? NE has the same throws, and now an extremely similar strike/throw situation....and yeah....he has a command grab. How could IW possibly be the better grappler?

The damage from combos isn't as good as IW because of the command grab. That's not to say it's bad damage. It's like 30% and the opponent is in the corner when you're done. I feel like people are really forgetting about how good this command grab really is. For every time IW gets off a f2 and it's blocked, NE can grab 15%. Damage output isn't all about how much damage you can do in one combo.

What better KBs? Since the patch, I've not once been hit with IW's sand trap KB. Not once. What other KB does IW have that NE doesn't have? I hit people with NE's tackle KB at least once a set. I'd call that an advantage for NE.

 

[Name v.5.0]

I also don’t understand why NE spends offensive meter on his Stepping it back cancels! I think it would make sense to spend the defensive one.

I'd say it's because of the plus frames he get's off S3 and S4 into stepping back.

 

[legion666]

I'd say it's because of the plus frames he get's off S3 and S4 into stepping back.

And what ?!? Kabal is +1 off F4xxNDC, +3 off the F2xxNDC , and +8 off f3xxNDC and this still takes defense. I could maybe see an argument of some of the Stepping it back cancels linking into combos like f3xxDD r1,f1 or f3xxDDr1, f212 in the corner. But he doesn’t gain much more damage from them, and it isn’t worth spending 2 bars of offense.

 

[Name v.5.0]

And what ?!? Kabal is +1 off F4xxNDC, +3 off the F2xxNDC , and +8 off f3xxNDC and this still takes defense. I could maybe see an argument of some of the Stepping it back cancels linking into combos like f3xxDD r1,f1 or f3xxDDr1, f212 in the corner. But he doesn’t gain much more damage from them, and it isn’t worth spending 2 bars of offense.

¯\(ツ)/¯

What can I say? Not every character is the same.

 

[ferdog8]

Basically what @The_Tile said. The restand In NE of f21 does 18% max, and if you go into 111 before the stun wears off it is even less. And with the charged Infinity Gauntlet IW gets a 30%+ combo into such restand. NE sand trap KB doesn’t work as a cancel off strings but IW’s Quick Sand KB does if it is loaded.
There is a way to make it work for NE where you spend a bar to set up an Amp Pillar and go for 11xxSand Trap, if timed right for the pillar to hit after 11 the Sand trap will KB if they stand block since the game somehow doesn’t count it as a cancel off 11 when the blockstun of the Amp pillar interrupts it. But that is another bar of meter if done off the restand and NE sand trap KB only does 21%. So you get the same damage as a 1 bar bnb in total. It has it’s place as an oki set up but if opponent is aware of what’s going on there are ways to avoid the mix.

Thanks for pulling me out of my ignorance, I don't play NE but I got hit by something like that once. Maybe I just forgot the sand pillar part.

I think NE is a more tricky/gimmicky variation, whilst IW is a straight forward killing machine.