Discussion Is MKXL 10/4 patch the most offensive version of the game?

[xSamuel]

Anyway, iirc if he wants to use exbomb he eliminates the gap and all chance you have to apply this reliable tech lol

Nothing is a true blockstring into bomb. It makes the gap smaller making the timing different but there is still a gap. They can still do spear to catch you trying to push buttons though.

 

[Matix218]

Exposing a gap, waking up, kountering something like sub clone as well. All examples help defense, while keeping the neutral armor free

I understand what you are saying. I actually like that idea a lot.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

On give me a good example of a situation now worse than pre-patch

Grandmaster Sub-Zero vs Jax

 

[Aqueous_Echo]

I understand what you are saying. I actually like that idea a lot.

Honestly, I thought that was what they were gonna change the game to with all the gifs and things. I still love this version of the game, just really invalidated some characters along the way and made some rather strong... Which may not be a direct tier shift, but did shift tiers indirectly

 

[KHTC Takgillo]

Grandmaster Sub-Zero vs Jax

That s not because of the game changes it s because his armor was bugged anyway that MU was damn near unwinnable anyway so what does it matter

 

[ismael4790]

Is there a game with even 50/50 risk reward for every character?

Probably not a full game, but there are characters in this game with that kind of "fair" design. Why couldn't all be like that?

If you put your opponent in a guessing situation where guessing wrong makes him take x% damage, if he guesses right he should have the right to do comparable damage to x% to you. That's the reason why I think most armor launchers shouldn't have gone: if you threw them out and the opponent blocked it, you were fucked for comparable damage than the one you would have inflicted if he hadn't blocked it. That's fair risk reward.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

I don't really get the "the attacker has nothing to fear" argument.

If you use your armour correctly, you end their offence, knock them down, reset the neutral and you have the advantage... Sounds like a good deal to me?

Also, can we stop pretending that armoured launchers fall exclusively into this "defensive option" category

 

[The_Tile]

I don't really get the "the attacker has nothing to fear" argument.

If you use your armour correctly, you end their offence, knock them down, reset the neutral and you have the advantage... Sounds like a good deal to me?

Also, can we stop pretending that armoured launchers fall exclusively into this "defensive option" category

The attacker has something to fear but the risk/reward is always in the attackers favour now, whereas pre-patch if you did manage to expose a gap you, for the most part, got equal reward to what they would get opening you up.

And every single rational person knows that armor was used offensively as well as defensively pre-patch. Making armored launchers only work on wakeup or reversal would solve that.

I'm a Summoner main and even I don't understand why they didn't do this instead of removing launchers completely.

 

[Matix218]

I don't really get the "the attacker has nothing to fear" argument.

If you use your armour correctly, you end their offence, knock them down, reset the neutral and you have the advantage... Sounds like a good deal to me?

Also, can we stop pretending that armoured launchers fall exclusively into this "defensive option" category

Yes, this x10000

Armored launchers can be used by the aggressor just as easily as by the defender, making the offensive options & pressure even more overwhelming.

 

[Matix218]

The attacker has something to fear but the risk/reward is always in the attackers favour now, whereas pre-patch if you did manage to expose a gap you, for the most part, got equal reward to what they would get opening you up.

And every single rational person knows that armor was used offensively as well as defensively pre-patch. Making armored launchers only work on wakeup or reversal would solve that.

I'm a Summoner main and even I don't understand why they didn't do this instead of removing launchers completely.

The situation should be in the attacker's favor though. The other guy gave up his turn or made a miatake in neutral or got hit/knocked down. He should be in a bad situation compared to the attacker. He will have to block correctly, counter poke to get his turn back, or risk an armor move that can be baited and or punished. Once he gets his turn back it will be his turn to do the same. Granted some characters do this better than others which is an issue but i am sick of people thinking that "i am getting pressured or i got knocked down and its not fair that I am not in as strong of a situation as the person who is attacking me" OF COURSE YOU ARE NOT! You made a mistake and that is the price you pay for it.

 

[The_Tile]

The situation should be in the attacker's favor though. The other guy gave up his turn or made a miatake in neutral or got hit/knocked down. He should be in a bad situation compared to the attacker. He will have to block correctly, counter poke to get his turn back, or risk an armor move that can be baited and or punished. Once he gets his turn back it will be his turn to do the same. Granted some characters do this better than others which is an issue but i am sick of people thinking that "i am getting pressured or i got knocked down and its not fair that I am not in as strong of a situation as the person who is attacking me" OF COURSE YOU ARE NOT! You made a mistake and that is the price you pay for it.

Wow... Ofcourse you're in a bad position, you already have to guess on a mixup or stagger which would open you up for 30/40%, let your opponent build meter and get tons of corner carry if they open you up. Why is it fair that if I make the right read I only get 10/20% with no corner carry and no meter build? If universal combo damage was reduced this wouldn't be an issue, but it hasn't. Noone is saying make the offender be in a better position than the attacker you fool. The risk/reward is just too skewed in the attackers favor.

I think the disconnect here might stem from who you play against, as a lot of characters have had their offense toned down. If you're against Takeda, Cage or one of the characters with heavily toned down offense the game feels fine.

Then you play against characters like GM/Cryo Sub, HQT Pred, Summoner/Sorcerer Quan and their pre-patch offense; then you realise why people want launchers back.

The only other solution I see to this is heavily toning down combo damage across the whole cast. Like, almost half the damage. This solution may actually be better but it depends if NRS thinks the same.

 

[Matix218]

Wow... Ofcourse you're in a bad position, you already have to guess on a mixup or stagger which would open you up for 30/40%, let your opponent build meter and get tons of corner carry if they open you up. Why is it fair that if I make the right read I only get 10/20% with no corner carry and no meter build? If universal combo damage was reduced this wouldn't be an issue, but it hasn't. Noone is saying make the offender be in a better position than the attacker you fool. The risk/reward is just too skewed in the attackers favor.

I think the disconnect here might stem from who you play against, as a lot of characters have had their offense toned down. If you're against Takeda, Cage or one of the characters with heavily toned down offense the game feels fine.

Then you play against characters like GM/Cryo Sub, HQT Pred, Summoner/Sorcerer Quan and their pre-patch offense; then you realise why people want launchers back.

The only other solution I see to this is heavily toning down combo damage across the whole cast. Like, almost half the damage. This solution may actually be better but it depends if NRS thinks the same.

But you are in that very position because you have already either:

A: lost the neutral and let them initiate their offense

B: Just been on offense and gave up your turn

C: Just got hit/combo'd and knocked down or put into a restand

D: Got knocked down

All of these mean that you made a mistake and/or guessed wrong so in my personal opinion you should be in a way worse situation with less options to turn that around into big damage on your opponent. Why should you as the defender (who has already made a mistake or you wouldn't be in a defensive situation) just automatically have a defensive option that gives you a 30+ % combo?

Im sorry I just dont agree with you.

The reward for the person on offense is that you have more options and your opponent will have to make a read or block correctly to get out of that situation. In my opinion that makes for a good fighting game.

EDIT: I agree toning down combo damage in general for several characters would be a good thing.

 

[Aqueous_Echo]

I don't really get the "the attacker has nothing to fear" argument.

If you use your armour correctly, you end their offence, knock them down, reset the neutral and you have the advantage... Sounds like a good deal to me?

Also, can we stop pretending that armoured launchers fall exclusively into this "defensive option" category

Not if they script armor ONLY to come out when "Kounter" is active. Offense wouldn't have this access, only defense.

 

[The_Tile]

But you are in that very position because you have already either:

A: lost the neutral and let them initiate their offense

B: Just been on offense and gave up your turn

C: Just got hit/combo'd and knocked down or put into a restand

D: Got knocked down

All of these mean that you made a mistake and/or guessed wrong so in my personal opinion you should be in a way worse situation with less options to turn that around into big damage on your opponent. Why should you as the defender (who has already made a mistake or you wouldn't be in a defensive situation) just automatically have a defensive option that gives you a 30+ % combo?

Im sorry I just dont agree with you.

The reward for the person on offense is that you have more options and your opponent will have to make a read or block correctly to get out of that situation. In my opinion that makes for a good fighting game.

Your main point seems to be "after I block your bs I get to initiate my own bs anyway", but not every character has ballshit like Quan, Sonya, Sub, etc. There are characters, balanced Kenshi being the obvious one, with defensive archetypes. When it's their turn they don't have ballshit to throw back at you, they hit you or throw you.

Why don't these characters get to keep armored launchers on reversal or wakeup? I'm not saying every character in the game needs a launcher, only the ones who need all the defensive options they can get because when it is their turn they have to play honest in a game which is still full of overwhelming offense.

If you're idea of a good fighting game is 2 players flipping coins, guessing OH/Low until one of them has no life left you might aswell unpatch your game to day 1 MKX. That fits your description of what a "good fighting game" should be. Most people want a game with more varied play styles than just taking turns pressing buttons, standing right in your face all game.

 

[Aqueous_Echo]

Yes, this x10000

Armored launchers can be used by the aggressor just as easily as by the defender, making the offensive options & pressure even more overwhelming.

Not if they script armor ONLY to come out when "Kounter" is active. Offense wouldn't have access to this function.

 

[Aqueous_Echo]

I don't really get the "the attacker has nothing to fear" argument.

If you use your armour correctly, you end their offence, knock them down, reset the neutral and you have the advantage... Sounds like a good deal to me?

Also, can we stop pretending that armoured launchers fall exclusively into this "defensive option" category

You can't reset the neutral AND have the advantage...

 

[Matix218]

Your main point seems to be "after I block your bs I get to initiate my own bs anyway", but not every character has ballshit like Quan, Sonya, Sub, etc. There are characters, balanced Kenshi being the obvious one, with defensive archetypes. When it's their turn they don't have ballshit to throw back at you, they hit you or throw you.

Why don't these characters get to keep armored launchers on reversal or wakeup? I'm not saying every character in the game needs a launcher, only the ones who need all the defensive options they can get because when it is their turn they have to play honest in a game which is still full of overwhelming offense.

If you're idea of a good fighting game is 2 players flipping coins, guessing OH/Low until one of them has no life left you might aswell unpatch your game to day 1 MKX. That fits your description of what a "good fighting game" should be. Most people want a game with more varied play styles than just taking turns pressing buttons, standing right in your face all game.

I can see your point regarding some characters truly needing launching armor if nothing else is changed character balance-wise but i think that is more of an issue with the other stronger characters that you mentioned needing to be toned down. Why cant those characters just have their offensive options toned down a bit? My idea of a good game is not coin flip guessing but i think there are (and have always been) too many 50/50s in general in this game.

I do enjoy the current game more than the previous patch by a wide margin though because some of those characters that had the strongest offense and 50 50s also used to have some of the best launching armor as well.

Address the characters specifically and it will be much better but i think the overall changes in this patch give a better startibg point to do just that (too bad it came so late in the game's life when further balance updates are unlikely)

 

[Aqueous_Echo]

What you guys aren't seeing from what @The_Tile and I are saying is that limiting armor to ONLY defense functions would make this game way more balanced. I honestly thought that's what was going to happen with all the gifs released etc.

Now that most of the cast has non launching armor, especially defensive chars, you'll see that they are either unsafe, do a very low damage output, or don't give hardly any hit advantage to really change any momentum. That's not enough to really scare anyone to hesitate unless you're one of the few chars who have two bar armor combos.

Now where it could be better is if ONLY defense had armor to make the offense hesitate to just keep going with buttons after buttons. Mashing buttons isn't a fighting game, and defense is not a punishment. Some people play defensive. There are defensive chars just as much as offensive or zoning/spacing. It's a playstyle.

My only point in all this was that Kounter doesn't actually mean anything aside from an on screen confirmation. What could've made it, and the game, better is if you only had access to armor when Kounter is active.

 

[Aqueous_Echo]

I can see your point regarding some characters truly needing launching armor if nothing else is changed character balance-wise but i think that is more of an issue with the other stronger characters that you mentioned needing to be toned down. Why cant those characters just have their offensive options toned down a bit? My idea of a good game is not coin flip guessing but i think there are (and have always been) too many 50/50s in general in this game.

I do enjoy the current game more than the previous patch by a wide margin though because some of those characters that had the strongest offense and 50 50s also used to have some of the best launching armor as well.

Address the characters specifically and it will be much better but i think the overall changes in this patch give a better startibg point to do just that (too bad it came so late in the game's life when further balance updates are unlikely)

I've said I enjoy this version a lot more. I doubt we get anymore patches outside of hotfixes. I just think Kounter could've meant more and done more.

 

[Matix218]

What you guys aren't seeing from what @The_Tile and I are saying is that limiting armor to ONLY defense functions would make this game way more balanced. I honestly thought that's what was going to happen with all the gifs released etc.

Now that most of the cast has non launching armor, especially defensive chars, you'll see that they are either unsafe, do a very low damage output, or don't give hardly any hit advantage to really change any momentum. That's not enough to really scare anyone to hesitate unless you're one of the few chars who have two bar armor combos.

Now where it could be better is if ONLY defense had armor to make the offense hesitate to just keep going with buttons after buttons. Mashing buttons isn't a fighting game, and defense is not a punishment. Some people play defensive. There are defensive chars just as much as offensive or zoning/spacing. It's a playstyle.

My only point in all this was that Kounter doesn't actually mean anything aside from an on screen confirmation. What could've made it, and the game, better is if you only had access to armor when Kounter is active.

This makes sense for sure

 

[Tony at Home]

In KI they actually removed Glacius ability to get a ground combo off puddle punch. The devs didn't even say it was OP, it was really just the principle of it. So it can't really be said there's no precedent for a "zero-tolerance" policy on reversals that get full combos.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Checkers is way more fun

If they would ofade SZ OH a splat knockdown I don't think SZ be as dominant in the corner as he is now

If it was like a minus 10, 15% splat

I don't really get the "the attacker has nothing to fear" argument.

If you use your armour correctly, you end their offence, knock them down, reset the neutral and you have the advantage... Sounds like a good deal to me?

Also, can we stop pretending that armoured launchers fall exclusively into this "defensive option" category

pre patch:
If I blow up a gap in Liu Kang's pressure, a Sub-Zero klone cancel, HQT dash cancel pressure, Cassie B124, etc I can spend a bar to take a third or more of their life into more offense. If not, I eat more offense and possibly get mixed or what have you and eat a combo myself. Although that may not be the funnest thing ever, the risk/reward was sort of close but still weighed in favor of the aggressor.

Now: if I want to do any of those things I spend a bar to do 10-15% maybe and get some offense. A lot of the armored moves have shit knockdowns so you really can't pressure the same after and steal your turn back the same as pre-patch because an armored launcher allows you to end with your characters optimal ender.

As the attacker you used to need to be afraid of losing a third of your life bar in to offense from doing an unsafe klone cancel, a non jailing cancel, or string with a gap. Now it's lose 10% into a maybe super oppressive or maybe shit knockdown into pressure. Not really the same thing at all imo.

Of course there is the argument that since characters like Cage with their jailing pressure were normalized, there is more to be exposed with armor, which is true. But would you rather spend a bar for 10% or be minus a few frames vs a non mix heavy character like Cage? Idk, both sides made up a lot of really good points but honesty if I get knocked down in the corner, iv never felt more helpless with only having a 10% armored move that's most of the time unsafe instead of an armored launcher that would balance the risk/reward. If armor only launched on wakeup or as a reversal or vs airborne opponents id be down for that.

 

[LaidbackOne]

Grandmaster Sub-Zero vs Jax

Grandmaster Sub-Zero vs who?

 

[Strange Symptoms]

I wish that some variations retained their armor if it was the purpose of the variation, such as Outlaw, but that just might be my salt regarding Erron talking. Also, even though it's a benefit, I don't much care for the reduced risk in using SoS3, kind of feels a bit autopilot when I play. Changes in offense such as that are the ones I dislike.

 

[trufenix]

indeed lmao, while some think the game got better (it looks better for me actually) some think the game got worse.

The game got better. It didn't become a different game, but the game it was is worse than this one.

Some people just want to dust off MK9, lmao.

False. If they did, they would.