Discussion Is MKXL 10/4 patch the most offensive version of the game?

[PLAYING TO WIN]

After investing a large amount of time in this version of the game I have come to the conclusion that it is the most offensive version of the game. The existence of armored launchers created a conundrum. The universal change was not the best way to address it. I am perplexed by players who complain about safe armor in this version of the game.

First thing I would like to point out, it appears the development team did not like the way the game was being played and identified that a change needed to be made. The game played extremely fast and only one play style was effective in the highest level of play... rush down/vortex/5050s. Other games considered good usually had several different archetypes that were effective. To use an example that most people on this site know, Injustice. Vortex characters were strong but other archetypes won majors. Aquaman and Black Adam were footsie monsters and had moderate pace control. Zod had amazing zoning. Bane was a rush down fool. Sinestro had 2nd best zoning in the game and a vortex. The list goes on. You could actually look at the top 5 and see different play styles (MMH, Batgirl, Aquaman, Zod, Flash)

My argument solely rest on the following point. In MKXL 10/4 patch the aggressive player/character has almost nothing to fear in this version of the game . Only a few have 2 bar armored launchers that are all unsafe. Strings with gaps had the risk reward tipped to their favor. At worst most characters will do 5-12% and do not even get oki (exception is mystic).

Making a blanket change and removing all of the armored launchers was not the best way to address it. This change destroyed some variations and made some moves pointless. Balanced Kenshi was built around EX Rising Karma. It got decent damage on hit and was full combo punished on block... what is wrong with that? Shinnok Ex Scoop is why the character's zoning was so good. Bone Shaper had some of the best anti zoning in the game. Now you have to burn two bars for a move that doesn't go nearly as far? Predator Ex lunge could be stuffed and was unsafe on block. In my opinion, high mix up characters (like reptile, alien, cutt throat et cetera) should have lost their launching armor but low mix up/reactive based characters should have kept it (alla Kenshi, Crystalline but made unsafe, predator et cetera).

Lastly, Reo (among others) have been running a campaign against all safe armor moves in the game. Possessed Ex overhead comes to mind. Just days later the community absolutely made the move look worthless... just use an advancing normal and it whiffs?

In this version of the game is that you have to get hit more to die (concerning amror) but who does that help? The aggressor. At least I had the thread of Ex Scoop and that only could slow people down. Extremely similar to Ryu's DP. Risk Reward needed to be considered with these changes but unfortunately, that clearly didn't happen. I do think this is the last version of MKX we will see. Pick a top tier

 

[Dankster Morgan]

The lack of armor definitely helps the aggressor.

I main GM Sub and I'll just string into klone for the fuck of it because they won't launch me, couldn't care less if they wanna spend a bar to do 10% just to keep my klone off the screen. Sub-Zero's offense used to be really unsafe with the threat of armored launchers, now he can bully you with "unsafe"(lol) klone cancels that he would have lost over 30% for pre patch.

And another thing is attacks like Sub's jump 1 and 3, Scorpion jump 3, Mileena jump 1, Kotal jump 1, Ermac jump 3, etc got even dumber. Moves like Sub-Zero's frost bomb, Tremor's shatter, Cage's ex nutpunch, Kung Lao's cyclone, etc being gone, these jump ins got stronger.

So essentially, characters like Grandmaster Sub-Zero who aren't even really rushdown characters can do dumb unsafe stuff and jump more with way less risk.

 

[I.z.u.n.a.]

I like that launching armor isn't used as a last ditch effort to break someone's patience when they are applying their already crazy offensive pressure. People save their meter now for the right reasons: Reversals, combo extenders, and making certain specials safer.

Most armor can be punished on whiff if it's not punishable on block. But yea there are exceptions that can be a little silly (Example: Ermac push) but for most characters it's tolerable.

 

[ILuvFightGames]

I agree, the game still favors the offensive type player.

 

[GAV]

------------------

 

[omooba]

personally i blame reo

and i feel like they didn't realize it's impossible to make such a drastic change this late into the game without making some variations become useless but eh it's wtv

 

[villainous monk]

I think those arch types still exist in mkxl.

I think there more stronger and more importantly more noticeable now then before the patch.

It's still a very offensive type of game but if the patch has shown anything is that this game can have a semblance of balance.

Those arch types you mentioned are truly one patch away.

I like the fact you have to know your match ups and truly fight then use gimmicks and get out of jail free cards that once ruined this game.

Imagine if there was zero armor.
All jumping and standing normals almost universally normalized.
All weapon based attacks and normals have hurt boxes & would be punishable on block.

Can't have this in mkxl. Ha. Nope.

That'll be too much lul.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I do think overall it helped offense but there is still a few benifiits for defense.

Ways it helped offensive play:
1. Grandmaster Sub-Zero like offense that I described earlier is much stronger, characters like HQT Predator who were plus but didn't jail can just go ham because they won't get launched in their gaps, there are far more applications but these are just the first two I thought of.
2. Jumps are stronger
3. And yep, wake ups are less threatening. Like P2W said, it takes more to kill from armor and nobody cares about losing 10%, it is a lot easier to just knock someone down and go in with a fraction of the threat.

Ways it helped defensive play:
1. Most characters having access to a 2 hit armored move gives them a way out of some of the extremely powerful pre patch setplay in the game(Grandmaster Sub's corner game, he can't just go ham, he has to read if you will wake up or not and act accordingly, not just do whatever he feels like). Or simple armor breaks like HQT's disc+laser post knockdown, Liu Kang's B1, etc. Even if the risk/reward is bad, it gives characters a way off the ground that they didn't have access to beforehand.

Offense is definitely better, but there are some ways defense was helped.

 

[Rude]

I think this version is way better than prepatch

 

[THTB]

To an extent, it is, but there's also a lot of nerfed offense in general. There's been a lot of frame advantage reductions, running in is a good deal more risky, run cancelling is really demanding on stamina, slower overheads for a number of characters, etc.

Looking purely at the armor changes, yeah, there's less to fear about an opponent using armor defensively. There's also a lot less fear of what characters are doing offensively in general.

The game still favors offense, but there's a better balance between the two, and playing defense feels more viable because of everything.

 

[ismael4790]

Absolutely, 100% agree with op.

This "one rule fits all" applied in this patch eliminating (almost) all armor launchers from a game that had them in the core, and in the core of the design of many of its characters, has gone wrong imo.

Certain characters that didn't deserve to be buffed were buffed due to this change, and others that were already low tier and only in need of buffs, got the nail in the coffin with armor launchers removal.
P2w mentioned some examples, like Balanced, who promoted from garbage to radiactive garbage.

 

[Arzumis]

While the aggresor doesnt have much to fear, i feel neither does the defender anymore. Crazy offense for the most part is gone. There arent that many plus on block moves that jail into more pressure. So with both things being toned down i feel the better player with the smarter decisions will win more compared to past versions of the game.

 

[hayatei]

armor doesn't launch but offense is not even close to being nearly as cheap as before. it got nerfed across the board, but i would agree that a few chars avoided unjustifiably some nerfs to theirs

i think there is definitely more room for different playstyles than before though

 

[Jynks]

Absolutely, 100% agree with op.

This "one rule fits all" applied in this patch eliminating (almost) all armor launchers from a game that had them in the core, and in the core of the design of many of its characters, has gone wrong imo.

Certain characters that didn't deserve to be buffed were buffed due to this change, and others that were already low tier and only in need of buffs, got the nail in the coffin with armor launchers removal.
P2w mentioned some examples, like Balanced, who promoted from garbage to radiactive garbage.

armor doesn't launch but offense is not even close to being nearly as cheap as before. it got nerfed across the board, but i would agree that a few chars avoided unjustifiably some nerfs to theirs

i think there is definitely more room for different playstyles than before though

Quote for truth....

While the removal of armour as a general tool has removed completely ONE way to deal with offence, as a whole offence has been reduced. Though we should probably distinguish between "Offence" "Pressure" and "Zoning" as I think these are all in the same group but are slightly different things. Also, MK has always been, still is and will always be a hyper aggressive game this will NEVER change.... just thought that should be said.

I think what this comes down to more than anything is the "changing meta". This is a new(ish) idea to the FGC as it has only been in the last 10 years that games have not been nearly 100% static... they came out in the Arcade and that was it.. Now we have games that change over time as things get patched.

What this means is that if you have no changed how you play, since the patch, then you will be running into all sorts of problems. This entire thread seams to me to feel that the OP is saying i can not defend how i used to, so the offence is so much stronger... but the facts as I see it is that there are more defensive options in MKx now than there ever has been BUT you need to change how you play, how you think about defence.

Basically each major patch it is a "new" game, a "new meta" and the players need to adjust and not just play exactly how they did before and instantly start calling "broken" on certain things.

-- EDIT --
opps quoted the wrong peep!! Fixed : )

 

[hayatei]

armored launchers into 30% combos were cancer to the neutral and counter poking metagame, the game gained a lot more depth there regardless of "defense or offense" (imo its a bit of a flawed way to look at things, the terms are not flexible enough) which overall makes for a much more fun/healthy gameplay for me

almost every rounds im playing last significantly longer than pre-patch both when im losing and winning

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

This version is definitely better
You guys were relying too much on mashing reversal armor launcher out of pressure. What about block correctly and patiently? 50/50s and pressure are nerfed. Now that defensive PLAYSTYLE can find the moment to strike back easier. And I would like to remind you that there is not really a true defensive character. There is only defensive playstyle

 

[Rude]

Running players' losing stamina when hit during a run is a pretty big deal, especially for zoning characters.

Many overheads were slowed down, plus frames off meter burned specials reduced and most rc characters only get about one loop of their pressure before stamina runs out.

I'm not sure how offense could be considered the strongest it's ever been when characters like A-List, who could keep you jailed with stamina and meter for long periods of time, have been adjusted.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, of course.

 

[B. Shazzy]

bro go play the new call of duty if you want to spam all day lul

 

[CompleteMadness]

I feel like it's a lot more less offensive then before in my honest opinion.

Running stamina was nerfed, makes it so you got to be careful running in. Run cancel characters got hit hard now they only get 1 rep. Alot of overheads slowed down a considerable amount. Counter poking game is better. Pre patch people would use armored launchers in their offense game. Blocked a poke, or a -6 -7 -8 move??No problem, armored launcher. That option is still there but no longer launches for a combo unless you want to spend 2 bars. (If you're using one of the characters that has 2 bar armoured launcher)

 

[I.z.u.n.a.]

Yea I think most of us are over the knee-jerk reaction of pre-patch armored launchers serving a deterrent for high octane offense since it worked to prolong high octane offense as well.

Like everyone else said, the derpiness of the game has been toned down, not just with armor but a lot of other moves and mechanics.

I few variations got screwed but the big picture is the patch made the game better for sure.

 

[snort]

Reo's right, armored launchers are dumb and ruined the game. You armoring through my projectile to combo me for 35+% while I'm trying to zone is stupid. You armoring through my string to full combo me for 35+% is beyond stupid. If you punish someone from a read or a minus move on block then you're rewarded with your EX launcher for a full combo, that's how it should be.

 

[hkriderz]

Before this thread goes off, guys can we tone down the "50 50s" have been significantly nerfed argument? Like seriously this game is still mostly space and mix. Almost half the cast has an still has an unreactable 50 50 launcher (19 frames is not reactable, especially in a match, stop with the BS). Oh NRS added a gap? It doesn't matter because its a 10% armor anyways lol. So let's can that argument or tone it down.

However I do think offense has been significantly bodied and defense had a buff. I would like better anti airs still because that issue persists (Seriously NRS, I'm sick of mileena literally sitting on me when she jumps)

But in some cases, offense intensified as well. HQT, GM, reptile, Lao etc.. all have amazing offense with little risk. This patch should have been done on a character to character basis IMO to minimize risk. This patch was amazing, but needs some extra tinkering.

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

Like seriously this game is still mostly space and mix. Almost half the cast has an still has an unreactable 50 50 launcher (19 frames is not reactable, especially in a match, stop with the BS). Oh NRS added a gap? It doesn't matter because its a 10% armor anyways lol. So let's can that argument or tone it down.

First: 19f OH is not reactable but the significant difference between the startup of low and oh makes it way easier to FUZZYGUARD the mixup. For example Sonya can't simply B1/B3 off d3 on hit anymore, the chance those mixups getting blocked correctly is way higher. Level up your defense scrubs.
Second: what is the best "abusable" string with gap that suddenly breaks a character if he/she spams it in game? You can also backdash gaps in strings, some gaps are so big that you can punch right through them. Sometimes backdash out of gaps gives you frame advantage. For example if you backdash last hit Gunslinger's SOS3 you're sightly plus
Seriously level up. Blocking is a necessary skill that too many people are ignoring. Some characters seemed to be overbuffed (actually they're not, they just benefit the most from universal changes) but there are counterpick for everything, so this patch ends up very well without any super overpowered flowchart character

 

[hkriderz]

First: 19f OH is not reactable but the significant difference between the startup of low and oh makes it way easier to FUZZYGUARD the mixup. For example Sonya can't simply B1/B3 off d3 on hit anymore, the chance those mixups getting blocked correctly is way higher. Level up your defense scrubs.
Second: what is the best "abusable" string with gap that suddenly breaks a character if he/she spams it in game? You can also backdash gaps in strings, some gaps are so big that you can punch right through them. Sometimes backdash out of gaps gives you frame advantage. For example if you backdash last hit Gunslinger's SOS3 you're sightly plus
Seriously level up. Blocking is a necessary skill that too many people are ignoring. Some characters seemed to be over buffed (actually they're not, they just benefit the most from universal changes) but there are counterpick for everything, so this patch ends up very well without any super overpowered flowchart character

You're mentioning one situation. Its nowhere near applicable in an actual match. If the Sonya does almost anything else (slight delay, walk back, jump in, stagger any other string etc.) you're guessing. Nothing's that clear cut as to just go for the mixup on the open, so it doesn't really matter. Just like how lab gods claim anti airs are perfect but all of them get shat on in a real match.

Oh jeez the exaggeration. When the hell did I say this breaks a character? Yes some gaps are backdashable, and the gaps you can punch through are not that many lets be frank. But then that also puts in a mindgame of staggers, where people could bait, or just keep doing it until they get armored and it still wont matter. Armor takeda's kunai gap, get a fullscreen b2 into a safe special. Backdash, still doesn't matter his normals reach anyway. Lao can do all the staggers he wants with barely any fear. Tempest orbiting hat cancels, 44, b321 special cancel etc. You mention Erron's SOS3. Why should Erron give a fuck that you're slightly plus? Also you're not guaranteed shit since you're mid screen where he can zone you, he's safe and he just did 8% plus chip on a safe blockstring. When pre-patch in a lot of match ups SOS3 was unusable due to losing half your life for it.

Again I stress this, this patch significantly helped all the game's aspects rather than hurt it. But some offense has become exponentially better due to the universal changes.

 

[xSamuel]

Is it possible to whiff punish Sonya's full string of B14 if you back dash the gap?