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Is Erron Black Broken?

REO

REO

Undead

Erron Black currently is a character players see as a definite top tier and many believe he is the current best character in the game. While plenty of players are suggesting numerous different nerfs for Erron Black, I think NRS needs to be careful on how they "normalize" the character because I think Erron Black at his base core, is pretty well designed. By this I mean his generic strings and specials are not out of line as most of them are either unsafe or have gaps you can exploit. His best normal is F+4 which the meter burn part should probably be a bit more punishable, but I'm not here to just talk about his Big Boot. I want to address some of the nerf suggestions I've seen recommended:

"Give B+2,2,2 last hit less cancel advantage so that Scud Shot is more unsafe"

- This would make his second variation even worse as it would cripple his Rattle Snake Slide cancel off of his string leading this variation to be dreadful.


"Make F+4 a Mid and not an Overhead"

- Doing this to his F+4 would make it the worst big boot attack in the game as it would be a very slow mid that doesn't grant advantageous frame traps on block like other character's big boots. It would also make Erron's other variations and his base core weaker overall.


Out of all of Erron's custom moves, his best ones are "Enhanced Locked & Loaded" and "Scud Shot". Why NRS chose to create a single tournament variation with his two best moves is baffling, but it was most likely an oversight. I believe instead of nerfing Erron's core base moves by stripping away his cancel frames on his strings, and targeting his big boot, which will end up having the character's base foundation crippled which indirectly impairs his second variation and other future variations, NRS needs to redesign his first "tournament variation" to not include his two best custom attacks.

I don't think it's reasonable to butcher the character just for the sake of keeping the first variation tame with the moves carelessly chosen in combination. If NRS is determined to keep his first tournament variation with Enhanced Locked & Loaded and Scud Shot, then they need to nerf these two specific abilities directly. They could remove the ability to special cancel into Scud Shot or require the launchers from his rifle to use up one offensive bar each.

These are my thoughts on Erron Black for the moment. I really hope he doesn't get incorrectly nerfed and end up with one decent variation and two horrendous ones like he did in MKX with all of the global character diluting.


_

For those who are interested, here is my "How to Beat Erron Black" series which has 2 parts: It has good information if you have no clue what to do against the character.


Part 1:


Part 2:


How Scud Shot works:



Scud Shot Cancels & Rushdown - Frame Data Unveiled:

 
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Lokheit

Lokheit

Warrior
Problem with balancing it by changing the moves in the variation is that if they finally go with kustom variations (and I'm on the huge majority that hopes they will) players can create it, so I guess it would've to be your second option of balancing the specific moves.
 
Eddy Wang

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
It interesing to see this video, specially because i watched Tom covering first and the both videos show different points yet pretty interesting ones.
This also just shows how much NRS players have grown and their perspective on how they see things has also grown with them.


Just wanted to add, instead of making F4 a mid, just increase the startup a bit more while he is air bone by 2 or 3 more frames, and either make F4 unsafe or make F4 safe but the amplification unsafe.

Keep those up buddy
 
ShadyHeart

ShadyHeart

Relationship with Sonya ended
Enhanced Locked & Loaded should probably take 2 slots considering how strong it is (which would also get rid of one of the variation abilities). Scud shot should get additional startup/recovery frames since it was designed to be a zoning/counter-zoning tool, not something to be used up close. Scud Shot shouldn't be something you're using in the opponents face and is the biggest reason his B222 is dumb in this variation. 3 additional frames of startup and recovery (or 2 startup/4 recovery etc.) would not hurt the moves intended function and would make B222 cancels punishable.

No matter what happens, scud shot is a problem child that needs some kind of change.
 
SLy

SLy

Warrior
I agree with this. Scudshot is the main issue. But i also dont think it needs to be tampered with.Just takened out and replaced by another ability. Problem solved.

I feel this way about alot of less sufficient variants as well.
 
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ShadyHeart

ShadyHeart

Relationship with Sonya ended
SLy said:
I agree with this. Scudshot is the main issue. But i also dont think it needs to be tampered with.Just takened out and replaced by another ability. Problem solved.

I feel this way about alot of less sufficient variants as well.
Click to expand...
That solves nothing for people who use custom loadouts.
 
REO

REO

Undead
Just for the record, I don't have anything against Erron Black and I'm not trying to get him nerfed to the ground like some are insinuating. I do want to thank those of you who are open minded regarding Erron Black by noticing it's more of the combination of kustom moves that make him ridiculous, and not the character itself. (very similar to closed beta Kabal situation)

Here's another video I created that tells you how to deal with Erron Black better for those who are interested:

 
haketh

haketh

Champion
REO said:
Just for the record, I don't have anything against Erron Black and I'm not trying to get him nerfed to the ground like some are insinuating. I do want to thank those of you who are open minded regarding Erron Black by noticing it's more of the combination of kustom moves that make him ridiculous, and not the character itself. (very similar to closed beta Kabal situation)

Here's another video I created that tells you how to deal with Erron Black better for those who are interested:

Click to expand...
Definitly gonna peep this
 
GLoRToR

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
REO said:

Erron Black currently is a character players see as a definite top tier and many believe he is the current best character in the game. While plenty of players are suggesting numerous different nerfs for Erron Black, I think NRS needs to be careful on how they "normalize" the character because I think Erron Black at his base core, is pretty well designed. By this I mean his generic strings and specials are not out of line as most of them are either unsafe or have gaps you can exploit. His best normal is F+4 which the meter burn part should probably be a bit more punishable, but I'm not here to just talk about his Big Boot. I want to address some of the nerf suggestions I've seen recommended:

"Give B+2,2,2 last hit less cancel advantage so that Scud Shot is more unsafe"

- This would make his second variation even worse as it would cripple his Rattle Snake Slide cancel off of his string leading this variation to be dreadful.


"Make F+4 a Mid and not an Overhead"

- Doing this to his F+4 would make it the worst big boot attack in the game as it would be a very slow mid that doesn't grant advantageous frame traps on block like other character's big boots. It would also make Erron's other variations and his base core weaker overall.


Out of all of Erron's custom moves, his best ones are "Enhanced Locked & Loaded" and "Scud Shot". Why NRS chose to create a single tournament variation with his two best moves is baffling, but it was most likely an oversight. I believe instead of nerfing Erron's core base moves by stripping away his cancel frames on his strings, and targeting his big boot, which will end up having the character's base foundation crippled which indirectly impairs his second variation and other future variations, NRS needs to redesign his first "tournament variation" to not include his two best custom attacks.

I don't think it's reasonable to butcher the character just for the sake of keeping the first variation tame with the moves carelessly chosen in combination. If NRS is determined to keep his first tournament variation with Enhanced Locked & Loaded and Scud Shot, then they need to nerf these two specific abilities directly. They could remove the ability to special cancel into Scud Shot or require the launchers from his rifle to use up one offensive bar each.

These are my thoughts on Erron Black for the moment. I really hope he doesn't get incorrectly nerfed and end up with one decent variation and two horrendous ones like he did in MKX with all of the global character diluting.
Click to expand...
Game balance is not an issue of whether a character's single variation becomes worse if it's brought to the level of the rest of the cast, in my opinion.
I think that Erron, Scorpion, Geras, Sonya and Sub need to play the same game as everyone else, first of all.
I don't think that Erron's second variation not being as strong as the first one is the main issue.
We have characters like Jade whose moves lead to nothing, specials are all heavily unsafe and gets shat on by the top tiers.

What we need is to decide whether Erron is the baseline for game balance, or one of the low tiers is.
 
LawAbidingCitizen

LawAbidingCitizen

Bomb Setups & Ball Rolls(Mileena/Cyrax)
REO said:

Erron Black currently is a character players see as a definite top tier and many believe he is the current best character in the game. While plenty of players are suggesting numerous different nerfs for Erron Black, I think NRS needs to be careful on how they "normalize" the character because I think Erron Black at his base core, is pretty well designed. By this I mean his generic strings and specials are not out of line as most of them are either unsafe or have gaps you can exploit. His best normal is F+4 which the meter burn part should probably be a bit more punishable, but I'm not here to just talk about his Big Boot. I want to address some of the nerf suggestions I've seen recommended:

"Give B+2,2,2 last hit less cancel advantage so that Scud Shot is more unsafe"

- This would make his second variation even worse as it would cripple his Rattle Snake Slide cancel off of his string leading this variation to be dreadful.


"Make F+4 a Mid and not an Overhead"

- Doing this to his F+4 would make it the worst big boot attack in the game as it would be a very slow mid that doesn't grant advantageous frame traps on block like other character's big boots. It would also make Erron's other variations and his base core weaker overall.


Out of all of Erron's custom moves, his best ones are "Enhanced Locked & Loaded" and "Scud Shot". Why NRS chose to create a single tournament variation with his two best moves is baffling, but it was most likely an oversight. I believe instead of nerfing Erron's core base moves by stripping away his cancel frames on his strings, and targeting his big boot, which will end up having the character's base foundation crippled which indirectly impairs his second variation and other future variations, NRS needs to redesign his first "tournament variation" to not include his two best custom attacks.

I don't think it's reasonable to butcher the character just for the sake of keeping the first variation tame with the moves carelessly chosen in combination. If NRS is determined to keep his first tournament variation with Enhanced Locked & Loaded and Scud Shot, then they need to nerf these two specific abilities directly. They could remove the ability to special cancel into Scud Shot or require the launchers from his rifle to use up one offensive bar each.

These are my thoughts on Erron Black for the moment. I really hope he doesn't get incorrectly nerfed and end up with one decent variation and two horrendous ones like he did in MKX with all of the global character diluting.
Click to expand...
I honestly don't think anything he does is truly broke. He just does everything so well and can handle everything along with being far to safe.

I don't believe moving Scud Shot to the other variation will be justified and will ultimately ruin both variations.
I think the biggest problem is he can be safe off B222 with Scud Shot and the best course of action is to make Scud Shot not cancelable on B222 but leave it's properties in tact.
This will allow 52 Card Pickup to still have counter zoning and combo but make him unsafe on all 50/50s with F4 being the exception. Slide us allready punishable so his 21212 and B2 slide is allready punishable.

But removing Scud Shot will leave 52CP with no counter zoning and obvious holes. And then noone at tournament will use him.

TL;Dr just make his Scud not useable on B222 so he can't make his mix safe.
 
LawAbidingCitizen

LawAbidingCitizen

Bomb Setups & Ball Rolls(Mileena/Cyrax)
REO said:
Just for the record, I don't have anything against Erron Black and I'm not trying to get him nerfed to the ground like some are insinuating. I do want to thank those of you who are open minded regarding Erron Black by noticing it's more of the combination of kustom moves that make him ridiculous, and not the character itself. (very similar to closed beta Kabal situation)

Here's another video I created that tells you how to deal with Erron Black better for those who are interested:

Click to expand...
Thank you for that video REO. Very informative.
Mainly all the points you stated us why I think he is strong but not broke. I think he is too safe using Scud Shot but would like him to keep it for zoning. Just make Scud unsafe with that string only. At least that's my opinion.
 
Tony at Home

Tony at Home

Master
To be clear, I disagree with REO here. I think its more than just how they combined variation moves here.

Vanilla Erron is still a "fuck footsies" MKX character and nothing changes that.

If you actually rewatch the reveal stream they actually joke about the fact that his f4 is a fuck footsies move. That's kinda my frustration- openly acknowledging that f4 is unga bunga but still allowing it into release
 
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