Input Bug: First results of a computer assisted analysis

[webreg]

NRS allowed instant versions of chrouch-moves. As it seems now the window for these instant moves is 4 frames, very lenient actually. The fifth frame of the crouch animation, you count as still standing, which you would have been without the instant-leniency. If this all is true, it could be fixed by removing this frame from the crouch animation or, even better, make it lenient for one more frame.

This seems like the most logical explanation. Concerning the crouch-moves at least.

I agree. To visualize it for the other people here:

- Press and hold down
- Frame 1: Character considered standing, instant down poke input window
- Frame 2: Character considered standing, instant down poke input window
- Frame 3: Character considered standing, instant down poke input window
- Frame 4: Character considered standing, instant down poke input window
- Frame 5: Character considered standing
- Frame 6: Character considered crouching
- Frame 7: Character considered crouching

In frame 5 the instant input window has expired, yet the character is not yet considered to be crouching and that results in a standing poke. There are still other explanations that are valid but this is a good guess and seems logical.

 

[greeneless]

I find all this fascinatingly odd.

 

[Slips]

Found some new circumstances of when the glitch occurs. It seems anytime during a wake-up move this glitch becomes more prevalent. It becomes less of a notation of d~1, but more d+1.

I first noticed trying to duck jab Jax's wake-up dash punch. I knew I wasn't hitting down and then 1 which is the most known way to re-create the input glitch, but d+1, but kept getting a standing jab. Then I noticed that it happened on any wake-up attack he did, whether I was in his face or full screen away.

I tested to see if it was just jax but this happens with all characters. During wake-up attacks the input glitch kicks in hard.

The best way to see this for yourself is pick any character and have the cpu as Sindell. Put wake-up attacks set to 'on' and get the wake-up attack to where she flies in the air and suspends herself. During that whole time she's in the air, start doing d+1s. Half the time you'll get a duck jab, the other half you get a standing 1.

Hope this helps NRS find out wtf is going on with the madness.

 

[Chaosphere]

just some more evidence to backup tom

 

[B W1zZ]

I remember in some of my matches at devastation with Raiden I would do a D3 poke and attempt to do a F24 string, but instead of the F2 coming out I would uppercut like wtf? This happened more than once and I know it wasn't an input error on my end, but oddly enough I haven't really experienced this before devastation. I was using a converter that randomly drops inputs (or maybe its the input bug afterall?) on top of the input bug already in the game.

 

[GGA soonk]

I've never had the dropped block happen, but I've had it happen to people all the time. IDK how to recreate it, but it does happen.

Tom is right, though, crouching frames are not the issue. I've been saying this all along. How can the game stand you up coming out of crouching block but never letting go of down?

 

[Prinz]

just some more evidence to backup tom

Could this be related to releasing block? Maybe after/during block recovery the crouching frames are initiated from the beginning and you get that frame 5 standing jab.

 

[GGA soonk]

Could this be related to releasing block? Maybe after/during block recovery the crouching frames are initiated from the beginning and you get that frame 5 standing jab.

If so, the game should not be reevaluating your position after block stun.

 

[Prinz]

also.. in vs play there have been times when you can be holding block and your block will go out for 1 frame while the opponent is attacking and you get hit. this bug is rare but it is directly related to the input bug.

I have noticed this happening in training mode when I set the CPU to always block.

 

[Chaosphere]

I have noticed this happening in training mode when I set the CPU to always block.

backed. this has happened to me before where i will knock them out of block and have absolutely no idea what the hell just happened and then i can't recreate it.

 

[GGA soonk]

the only time i see the training dummy release block is when their life bar runs out. idk tho, not about to record all of my training sessions to figure it out. That's NRS' job, and they wouldn't fix it anyways, so whatever.

 

[Sasuga]

none of this matters anyway because the bug cannot be fixed.

If it can't be fixed then still it matters because if you understand why it's happening, it's easier to find a way around it. I am not willing to believe this occurs randomly. And if they won't fix it, we have to get around it.

It also seems that inputs dropped are dependent of the state of your opponent. As someone else stated in the other 'fix the bug' thread, it also occurs when sindel is wake-up-hovering (Slips, I believe). Now, I am a man of logics. I've spent more time in my life with computers than with anything else (thing of that what you like, lol) and I simply refuse to accept that this is irrational behaviour that cannot be fixed. (Not taking into account commercial or marketing or whatever reasons, I'm just looking at it logically.)

If it's something NRS won't fix because of the effort involved, maybe we can do this effort. Maybe the results in tests like these might someone at NRS have an flash of insight and change a little 1 to a 0 somewhere in the code and fix the whole problem. Maybe if we don't think about it, the bug will be back in MK10.

Because I don't think they're building a new engine from scratch.

 

[GGA soonk]

If it can't be fixed then still it matters because if you understand why it's happening, it's easier to find a way around it. I am not willing to believe this occurs randomly. And if they won't fix it, we have to get around it.

It also seems that inputs dropped are dependent of the state of your opponent. As someone else stated in the other 'fix the bug' thread, it also occurs when sindel is wake-up-hovering (Slips, I believe). Now, I am a man of logics. I've spent more time in my life with computers than with anything else (thing of that what you like, lol) and I simply refuse to accept that this is irrational behaviour that cannot be fixed. (Not taking into account commercial or marketing or whatever reasons, I'm just looking at it logically.)

If it's something NRS won't fix because of the effort involved, maybe we can do this effort. Maybe the results in tests like these might someone at NRS have an flash of insight and change a little 1 to a 0 somewhere in the code and fix the whole problem. Maybe if we don't think about it, the bug will be back in MK10.

Because I don't think they're building a new engine from scratch.

If they know about the bug, and they know we know about the bug, I doubt this bug will be in the next game. What do you think one of the first things we're going to be looking for in this next game is? Sad thing we have to test their games for bugs from now on, but they've lost that trust.

 

[Killphil]

what this does is also makes ppl randomly stand up from neutral crouch. sometimes you try to remain in neutral crouch to avoid a projectile and the game will stand you up randomly, and you get hit by the projectile.

Damn so this is why I would get frozen by EX freeze when I'm ducking. Happens all the time against my friend. Makes me salty as shit when its my last bit of life too. Very interesting thread to say the least. Thanks for the input Tom.

 

[webreg]

@Tom
I said before, that the game seems to "forget" that you are crouching or somehow considers you standing in "down pokes". It is very likely, that this could happen in normal crouching pokes and I'll test this out in order to confirm your observations with sound evidence and you must excuse my skepticism, it comes with the profession.

That being said, I have yet to see any king of proof or video footage of any other direction beside "down" let alone in any special move. My personal opinion based on no experience but inferred from the tests I made is as following: directional commands where you have to hold down a direction have at least the potential to be affected by the bug. Specials move inputs do not. At least not from this particular bug.

It is possible, that the game "forgets" you are holding "forward" or "back" but the parameters are at least different from "down" because I made EXTENSIVE tests with the first 7 frames after pressing a direction from a neutral position and it doesn't happen there. Special moves however simply don't care if you are holding a direction. They only care if you pressed a direction.

 

[webreg]

About not being able to fix it. Ok, maybe it is, maybe it isn't correctable but if NRS knows about it, then they sure as hell know EXACTLY what/why/where it happens and they could simply tell us. I'm not mad at them for having a problem in their engine but I sure as hell don't accept that they keep quiet about it instead of helping their customers deal with it. Next time anyone talks to any of them on a stream or in an interview, ask them and don't dance around the issue. Straight in the face.

 

[Sasuga]

If they know about the bug, and they know we know about the bug, I doubt this bug will be in the next game. What do you think one of the first things we're going to be looking for in this next game is? Sad thing we have to test their games for bugs from now on, but they've lost that trust.

True, but still...

I think however that the players always have been the most important testers. And will always be. With gamesoftware becoming increasingly more complex, you just cant test everything before release. Especially with fighting games. I think these are the hardest to make and not even a little bit more difficult.

Speaking of the players as testers, I wouldn't mind spending a couple of bucks on an MK beta release. Why pay game-testers if people are willing to pay to test it for you. XD

 

[Sasuga]

Also: this:

About not being able to fix it. Ok, maybe it is, maybe it isn't correctable but if NRS knows about it, then they sure as hell know EXACTLY what/why/where it happens and they could simply tell us. I'm not mad at them for having a problem in their engine but I sure as hell don't accept that they keep quiet about it instead of helping their customers deal with it. Next time anyone talks to any of them on a stream or in an interview, ask them and don't dance around the issue. Straight in the face.

 

[webreg]

Ok, bad news.

I can reproduce and confirm, that the bug also affects crouching pokes/uppercut after blockstun.

The specifics about frames, milliseconds and video evidence is not yet available but I'm working on it. Collecting evidence is much harder in this case because it involves both characters directly interacting with each other so the variables to consider are multiplied.

Yes, Tom, you're right about that. No Tom, this does not automatically mean you're right about special moves but I'm working on that as well. Tom it seems you are protecting your source of information and I can respect that but would it be possible for you to try and get specific information about the bug so we don't have to collect it by ourselves with arduous and boring tests? At the very least please try to get confirmation about the impact it has on special moves if any.

They should understand that no info breeds insecurities, rumor, anger and disappointment. Currently the "input bug" seems to be the only reason tournaments are won/lost in the minds of some people and we both know this to be wrong. Getting clear would actually help their game and the overall reputation of them as a developer.

 

[GGA soonk]

Ok, bad news.

I can reproduce and confirm, that the bug also affects crouching pokes after blockstun.

The specifics about frames, milliseconds and video evidence is not yet available but I'm working on it. Collecting evidence is much harder in this case because it involves both characters directly interacting with each other so the variables to consider are multiplied.

Yes, Tom, you're right about that. No Tom, this does not automatically mean you're right about special moves but I'm working on that as well. Tom it seems you are protecting your source of information and I can respect that but would it be possible for you to try and get specific information about the bug so we don't have to collect it by ourselves with arduous and boring tests?

We already knew about the blockstun problem, I made a video of it. The source is Ed Boon. Why are you trying to get information on the bug if it's not going to be corrected and if NRS already knows what the issue is?

 

[Robotic]

Ok, bad news.

I can reproduce and confirm, that the bug also affects crouching pokes after blockstun.

The specifics about frames, milliseconds and video evidence is not yet available but I'm working on it. Collecting evidence is much harder in this case because it involves both characters directly interacting with each other so the variables to consider are multiplied.

Yes, Tom, you're right about that. No Tom, this does not automatically mean you're right about special moves but I'm working on that as well. Tom it seems you are protecting your source of information and I can respect that but would it be possible for you to try and get specific information about the bug so we don't have to collect it by ourselves with arduous and boring tests? At the very least please try to get confirmation about the impact it has on special moves if any.

Webreg, I've been talking about this for a while now - question:

I will try to word as best I can to not make it pointlessly convoluted. After EVERY move, there is a point where the move effectively stops. After EVERY block, there is a point where the block stun will eventually cease. The exact time where this ceases, I will call frame zero. Frame zero's can happen 100 times in just one match. Is it possible the bug occurs EVERY TIME you do ANYTHING on frame 5?

 

[webreg]

We already knew about the blockstun problem, I made a video of it. The source is Ed Boon. Why are you trying to get information on the bug if it's not going to be corrected and if NRS already knows what the issue is?

Because nobody knows what it affects and when. My aim is to provide information that might allow the players who are much better than I am to avoid it. By avoiding it, the streams and tournaments might get better because nobody can just blame the bug for loosing if there are ways known to nullify it. It's actually very simple. If people don't know the specifics of the bug and it happens, then "the game is crap and they only lost because of it" but if the problems are well known and can be avoided, then there is no excuse left.

Let us take Cyber Subs problem with the dashing and then getting bombs instead of combos. I feel that the CSZ game has been elevated ever since people know you can avoid this by pressing back first and nobody has the right to whine about that anymore because it can simply be avoided.

 

[Somberness]

Slightly off topic, but could you figure out the first frame you are able to do an air fireball or teleport/divekick? I wonder if there are problems with that too.

now we can all drop the input bug talk and move on with MK9.

But what will you say on commentary? Oh yeah, "how many viewers do we have"

 

[webreg]

now we can all drop the input bug talk and move on with MK9.

Be sincere. Do you honestly think people will shut up about it if it happens to them during a tournament? Wasn't it you who yelled the loudest and talked about it on streams a lot? Maybe your own attitude has now changed but do you think other can do that as well? My own humble opinion is, that trying to sweep it under the rug and pretend it's not there is not good for the game because it will surface and people will complain. Providing them tools and info on how to possibly avoid it is probably the better way. More important than what it affects is what it doesn't affect so that people can not go around and blame the "input bug" for everything they do wrong. I think this is bad for the game and I happen to like MK9. That's my philosophy anyway.

Oh and before I forget. Thank you for the provided explanation. I know we won't get that info because of politics and potentially angry manufacturers but wouldn't it be swell to know with what device it happens the least or most? Maybe we have to observe you very closely now to see what device you will be using in the future, no?

 

[GGA soonk]

Because nobody knows what it affects and when. My aim is to provide information that might allow the players who are much better than I am to avoid it. By avoiding it, the streams and tournaments might get better because nobody can just blame the bug for loosing if there are ways known to nullify it. It's actually very simple. If people don't know the specifics of the bug and it happens, then "the game is crap and they only lost because of it" but if the problems are well known and can be avoided, then there is no excuse left.

Let us take Cyber Subs problem with the dashing and then getting bombs instead of combos. I feel that the CSZ game has been elevated ever since people know you can avoid this by pressing back first and nobody has the right to whine about that anymore because it can simply be avoided.

The solution is a shit alternative.. Instead of holding crouch after blocking a low string or low attack, you have to let go of crouch then hit crouch and attack within a certain amount of time, but not too late!, because then you'd get the input bug. So now you need a 6 frame d1 to escape pressure but it's taking too long because you have to go to neutral first just because you're trying to avoid the bug. Sounds like fun.