Injustice Post Evo Question: Numbers after Evo

[Doombawkz]

He does comparable damage off of as safe starters.

He has one of the best wake-up moves in the game.

He doesn't care about the neutral game, he doesn't have to play it.


Edit: Oh and by the way? He is one of the characters with potential unblockable setups.

How many of those have the reach and frames of f.23? What combo does he do that is comparable to f.23 as a starter?

As zoidberg would say "MB b.3". Every character can diffuse BA wake-ups using it, even Bane. In fact, as Bane we can MB f.3 it and either eat through the cage or get +9 on block. Either one, and I know other characters get some nice on-block advantage as well.

So BA doesn't have all of the comparable tools of superman. He is good, but not as-good. And yes, he does eventually have to play some neutral game.

Edit: I'd like to hear about it, if you don't mind.

 

[Smarrgasm]

Black adam probably has the best wake up combo in the game in lightning cage and hands.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

Black Adam has the best wake-up move in the game... lol

and his damage is huge lol I don't understand how someone can be so wrong twice in one sentence.

 

[Doombawkz]

and his damage is huge lol I don't understand how someone can be so wrong twice in one sentence.

I never said he didn't do good damage, I said he needs to pop trait to get comparable damage to what Supes can do. Otherwise he is doing in the area of 12-15% less damage than your basic Superman combo.

 

[ryublaze]

What happened to "every character is viable" ???

 

[Smarrgasm]

I never said he didn't do good damage, I said he needs to pop trait to get comparable damage to what Supes can do. Otherwise he is doing in the area of 12-15% less damage than your basic Superman combo.

Black Adam does more meterless damage than superman can with a bar and trait...

 

[Smarrgasm]

What happened to "every character is viable" ???

Tons of characters are insanely good and viable. However, superman and others are better and much more prevalent in use. In time more of the good characters will pop up but for now we must suffer.

 

[arydious]

High execution does not a great fighter make. If that was true, we'd all be playing Melty Blood.
Skill isn't just a matter of execution.

I understand what you are saying. I agree but there is a degree of execution that makes a game run the test of time. If everyone can master the execution and everything in a couple of weeks the games longevity will not last.

I will point out UMVC3 it is all fighting with some great mix ups and all combo's no gimmicks like intractables or stage transitions. It is all fighting the mix ups and the mind games. For that reason execution comes into play and not every player even in the rps can execute combos perfectly.

Execution is not the only aspect of skill the mix ups, the mind games, the overall awareness, and the footsy game all play a factor but it is something I feel was more prevalent than Injustice. Injustice is mainly gimmicks on how to get that "unblockable" interactable to hit your opponent. It removes the spacing and footsy game by a large degree.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

I never said he didn't do good damage, I said he needs to pop trait to get comparable damage to what Supes can do. Otherwise he is doing in the area of 12-15% less damage than your basic Superman combo.

Well his 1 bar traitless combos are only 1-2% less than Superman's 1 bar traitless combos. His 0 bar trait combos though are higher than Supes' 1 bar trait combos.

 

[Rude]

Basically there's people who get it then there's people who clearly don't

Count me out arguing further w those w dont

But I do get it. I've given your points acknowledgement.
You've only addressed anything I've said with misdirection and Hyperbole.

Hyperbole of The Hut.

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

Also, I had hope for Sinestro before EVO because IMO the Sinestro board is one of the best and hardest working character forums out there. Pig, LegenD, P2W, wound. All have gone through the process of ripping the character apart and dissecting ever aspect of him to this point.

And yet, it's hopeless because you have scumbag characters that just fuck your shit up at the highest level of play with little to no effort.

I feel like taking my Yellow Corp cock ring and flushing down the toilet. There is nothing to fear anymore.

Yea, this pretty much. None of us have any reason to play anything less than a top 3-top 5 character in this game. Sinestro is a total waste of time because he has a few matchups that are close to unwinnable and a number of others that are uphill. I don't mind the fact that he has weaknesses but I am really disturbed by the fact that a few characters have either minor or no weaknesses. They might as well delete the rest of the cast. This game reeks of shitty design imo.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

Yea, this pretty much. None of us have any reason to play anything less than a top 3-top 5 character in this game. Sinestro is a total waste of time because he has a few matchups that are close to unwinnable and a number of others that are uphill. I don't mind the fact that he has weaknesses but I am really disturbed by the fact that a few characters have either minor or no weaknesses. They might as well delete the rest of the cast. This game reeks of shitty design imo.

Sinestro is far to balanced and well designed too be viable in this game.

 

[YOMI Reno_Racks]

You are adorable. Batman always has trait you say? I assume he never gets hit or pressured either, right? Also, surprise surprise but if you are rushing down to the point where your bat will always stuff a d.2 before it clicks your jump, then why haven't you won EVO? That sounds like some awesome stuff to make sure you never ever get checked by d.2 or anti-airs, only if it were so obvious and well known then why was REO still getting checked by d.2 and anti-airs?

You decided to accuse my Bane of being sub-par, so I did the same. Point stands that player skill doesn't make a point any less true.

Tell me something new Batman can do now that has yet to be seen. Because from what I can see, the Bane forums and the Hawkgirl forums are the only ones whom are actually still pulling new tech that is both practical and usable in a real match.

I don't have to insult you to get my point across, so as far as the grand scheme goes I don't think I'm the one in the troths.

He always has trait in footsies because all he has to do is wait a second and it's there. J2 is mainly used in footsies or after a MB batarang in which case you couldn't D2 either.

You called Batman a sub-par character first, then I called you a sub-par Bane.

I didn't do bad at Evo dick. I lost a very close set against the Evo champ KDZ and still made it out of my pool afterwards. It takes a lot more than a safe jump in to win Evo and in tournaments much of the results have to do with your path to the end.

UsedForGlue for example has figured out a way around Batman's damage scaling that allows him to get more damage of one trait bat meterless than his current 1bar max damage combos. How's that for tech jackass?

I don't insult you to get my point across, it's for my own satisfaction.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

too* (it won't let me edit posts)

 

[Onilordasmodeus]

Yea I agree w this whole-heartedely

If u nerf superman, then there's GL, then there's Aquaman , then.....etc

I agree it's an issue underneath the surface of the game's design

For this reason alone it's hard to balance, Still though superman seems pretty Dominate

Does anyone else get really Sick of hearing "Duperman is dominate w cause he's supposed to be, he's SUPERman"?

That statement makes me extremely annoyed

Honestly i felt the same about the "Scorpion doesn't belong 'cause he's an MK character" arguement.

 

[KDZ]

8-frame neutral tool that's safe on block and covers huge range
50-60% combos for 1 bar after normalization<--------- CORNER ONLY
Full screen overhead 2-frame super <--------- 2-frames point blank only, 15 max screen, why does being an overhead matter
Armor breaking and a 20% damage boost with no draw-back whatsoever <--------- All traits have drawbacks now?
Great meter gain
Two projectiles, one of which hits overhead the other doing about 5% in chip <--------- You have to MB the overhead and the other is duckable, and both reactable
Air dash and a.d.3 allowing him cross-ups like crazy <--------- If you get hit by those 60 frame visible crossups, go to training mode
Combos are simple, straightforward, efficient, damaging, and all around easy to set-up <--------- hardest combo in the entire game to get his max damage

^ Fixed.

Also @AKPigoftheHut

Umm... There are at least 5 character more broken than Superman in this game. Right now. With no buffs, patches, nerfs, anything. Like, if we played this game for the next 2 years with no patches, there are minimum 5 characters that would make Superman look normal in comparison. I've been tempted to make the change... but I love superman so much.

If we continued to play this game at it's current build for the next 2-3 years:

you would learn how average Superman's zoning is.
How much of a disadvantage he is at when players play more carefully,
Or are willing to read the way I have to read and take chances with their reads post-F23.
How not having a real mixup means he needs man-damage when he hits you.
How cracking and making crazy choices when he leans on you with pressure is not his fault, it's the opponents.
How his highest damage combos require the most execution of any combo in the game.
How poor his anti-air game is, even WITH the damn D2 buff.
How he doesn't have a jump in crossup!! That's so huge. The airdash crossup is so unbelievably slow that it blows my mind every time it just hits someone who didnt whiff. REO I'm talking to you, that shit blew my brains out.

The character (Superman) works on the SAME principle that has been in fighting games forever: The no-mixup pressure character.

He's Rufus from SF4, who at the beginning of THAT game people cried as broken. Rufus' + on block, advancing divekick is Superman's F23, right down to the fact that he pushes you into the corner for low damage midscreen, and how it converts into the highest corner damage and pressure in the game. Rufus also lacks a jump-in crossup.

His divekick on block forces you to make a decision, and make it fast. Press a button at the wrong time and his divekick is GOING to hit you, and he is GOING to take you halfway across the stage towards the corner. Sound's like F23 to me.

Superman = Rufus. Fighting against that playstyle is not impossible, it's just stressful, because I'm forcing decisions on both of our parts constantly. Mentally draining. He seems stupid, easy to use. Tons of people were doing "well" with Rufus, getting some top 8's, making their communities hate the character. The best player in the US at the time played him, so he had to be broken. But for some reason only one player (eventually 2) could win it all with him consistently on the big stage. For the last 4 years. There's a reason for that that you guys don't see.

Yet.

Pig, you should look within yourself for the answers to this very unlockable puzzle, rather than running with the "he's OP" crowd. I believe in you!

 

[godlessmode]

^...

This is pretty much what my argument breaks down to all summarized into a single post with the added credibility of winning Evo.

Who do you think are the 5 characters that top him in BS? Bladam, Flash, WWoman, Batgirl and Aquaman? I could see NW or Batman instead of either WW or Batgirl.

 

[Doombawkz]

Black Adam does more meterless damage than superman can with a bar and trait...

What meterless damage can he do, exactly? I've yet to see anything above 40%, and supes can clean off about 43%

By the by, here is a list of everyone who can't MB f.3 BA lightning Cage meaty and beat it out for a free combo:
Nightwing (who flies over him in Escrima mode, staff mode works, MB b.3 works)
Harley (jumps over him, MB b.3 works)
Grundy (who hits just a touch too high, Mb b.3 works)
KF (She technically can but its inconsistent. MB b.3 works fine)
Hawkgirl (she can't use MB b.3 and MB f.3 is inconsistent at best)
GL (He can't MB f.3 consistently, but MB b.3 works fine for raw wake-up stuffs)

And that's all. That's not just cage either, but all of his wake-ups barring super. Hawkgirl is the only one who can't stuff his cage at all, so literally every single character in the game barring her has something to beat BA wake-ups.

 

[NB Semi Evil Ryu]

Oh Lord, you're right. He's Rufus with a projectile.

FUUUUUUUUUUUUCK

(So basically, not unbeatable. But he puts your mind into overdrive whenever he starts his pressure)

 

[Smarrgasm]

^ Fixed.

Also @AKPigoftheHut

Umm... There are at least 5 character more broken than Superman in this game. Right now. With no buffs, patches, nerfs, anything. Like, if we played this game for the next 2 years with no patches, there are minimum 5 characters that would make Superman look normal in comparison. I've been tempted to make the change... but I love superman so much.

If we continued to play this game at it's current build for the next 2-3 years:

you would learn how average Superman's zoning is.
How much of a disadvantage he is at when players play more carefully,
Or are willing to read the way I have to read and take chances with their reads post-F23.
How not having a real mixup means he needs man-damage when he hits you.
How cracking and making crazy choices when he leans on you with pressure is not his fault, it's the opponents.
How his highest damage combos require the most execution of any combo in the game.
How poor his anti-air game is, even WITH the damn D2 buff.
How he doesn't have a jump in crossup!! That's so huge. The airdash crossup is so unbelievably slow that it blows my mind every time it just hits someone who didnt whiff. REO I'm talking to you, that shit blew my brains out.

The character (Superman) works on the SAME principle that has been in fighting games forever: The no-mixup pressure character.

He's Rufus from SF4, who at the beginning of THAT game people cried as broken. Rufus' + on block, advancing divekick is Superman's F23, right down to the fact that he pushes you into the corner for low damage midscreen, and how it converts into the highest corner damage and pressure in the game. Rufus also lacks a jump-in crossup.

His divekick on block forces you to make a decision, and make it fast. Press a button at the wrong time and his divekick is GOING to hit you, and he is GOING to take you halfway across the stage towards the corner. Sound's like F23 to me.

Superman = Rufus. Fighting against that playstyle is not impossible, it's just stressful, because I'm forcing decisions on both of our parts constantly. Mentally draining. He seems stupid, easy to use. Tons of people were doing "well" with Rufus, getting some top 8's, making their communities hate the character. The best player in the US at the time played him, so he had to be broken. But for some reason only one player (eventually 2) could win it all with him consistently on the big stage. For the last 4 years. There's a reason for that that you guys don't see.

Yet.

Pig, you should look within yourself for the answers to this very unlockable puzzle, rather than running with the "he's OP" crowd. I believe in you!

Just curious but who do you think are the 5 characters that will oust him?

Batman and WW are the only i think that could dethrone him at the top. Aquaman and Black Adam are also close.

 

[KDZ]

He's rufus with a projectile as good as Sakuras.

 

[ETC AdmiralAugustus]

This thread has a lot of good info, and KDZ and other players have made a lot of good points.

But you know what this thread doesn't have?

Epic Beard Flips


Thank you based King Todo

 

[KDZ]

^
Thank you for fixing the thread's glaring flaw

 

[Smarrgasm]

What meterless damage can he do, exactly? I've yet to see anything above 40%, and supes can clean off about 43%

By the by, here is a list of everyone who can't MB f.3 BA lightning Cage meaty and beat it out for a free combo:
Nightwing (who flies over him in Escrima mode, staff mode works, MB b.3 works)
Harley (jumps over him, MB b.3 works)
Grundy (who hits just a touch too high, Mb b.3 works)
KF (She technically can but its inconsistent. MB b.3 works fine)
Hawkgirl (she can't use MB b.3 and MB f.3 is inconsistent at best)
GL (He can't MB f.3 consistently, but MB b.3 works fine for raw wake-up stuffs)

And that's all. That's not just cage either, but all of his wake-ups barring super. Hawkgirl is the only one who can't stuff his cage at all, so literally every single character in the game barring her has something to beat BA wake-ups.

46% meterless no jump in.

B2 orbs 22b1 j2 divekick b23 u1+3

-Yes it is true you can MB f3/b3 his wake ups but then you are burning a bar on the chance that he might wake up. You can do that to most if not all characters to force them to respect you from the ground. Ill gladly let you do it and just block or depending on the f3/b3 back dash and whiff punish.

 

[Big Pampering]

Imo superman is fine, f23 is just really good. My problem with the high damage is that with f23 he can too easily convert situational combos into high damage, what happens is when superman catches you twice in the first lifebar it is really hard to make up that life deficit when it is 2 lifebars versus 1. Superman just really benefits of the system with no rounds in this game.

Superman would still be top 5 with a 5% damage nerf perhaps to his 50%+ combos. But id rather see the mid tiers buffed slightly.

Honestly this is what happens when you make a character all (or almost) about one move(bad character design), characters like killer frost, superman and scorpion are the characters that have been most complained about.