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Injustice Balance Patch: Joker Changes Preview From Ed Boon

OnlineRon91

OnlineRon91

Joker++
The Acid Blossom CONSISTENTLY frees Joker FASTER when blocked ...

Consistently: Joker is able to move before his opponent on EVERY blocked Acid Blossom
Faster: Joker is able to move BEFORE his opponent on every blocked Acid Blossom.

I have no idea where all these ideas about getting safe teeth (it's 87 start-up frames, come on) or dash-in is coming from. One can dream but its delusional to think otherwise :(

This last balance upgrade is a fix, don't go expecting for more + frames or you'll be disappointed :/
 
Fromundaman

Fromundaman

I write too much.
OnlineRon91 said:
The Acid Blossom CONSISTENTLY frees Joker FASTER when blocked ...

Consistently: Joker is able to move before his opponent on EVERY blocked Acid Blossom
Faster: Joker is able to move BEFORE his opponent on every blocked Acid Blossom.

I have no idea where all these ideas about getting safe teeth (it's 87 start-up frames, come on) or dash-in is coming from. One can dream but its delusional to think otherwise :(

This last balance upgrade is a fix, don't go expecting for more + frames or you'll be disappointed :/
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Haha, I probably will be, but I'm hoping...

That said if this is a fix what is this a fix for? I don't think I've ever seen it not be positive on block.
If it's a fix then yeah, my hopes are probably pointless, but I haven't seen an issue with it before so I'm hoping it must have been improved to give options.

Either way, all I'm doing is speculating and hoping.
 
OnlineRon91

OnlineRon91

Joker++
Fromundaman said:
Haha, I probably will be, but I'm hoping...

That said if this is a fix what is this a fix for? I don't think I've ever seen it not be positive on block.
If it's a fix then yeah, my hopes are probably pointless, but I haven't seen an issue with it before so I'm hoping it must have been improved to give options.

Either way, all I'm doing is speculating and hoping.
Click to expand...

The fix is to make the move +4 on block as intended. In it's current state, you get the intended +4 on block if your on the 2p side but 0 on block from the 1p side.
 
Fromundaman

Fromundaman

I write too much.
OnlineRon91 said:
The fix is to make the move +4 on block as intended. In it's current state, you get the intended +4 on block if your on the 2p side but 0 on block from the 1p side.
Click to expand...
Oh wow, I didn't know that. That's kind of retarded.

Well, never mind then. There goes all of my unbridled optimism...
 
ghostwriteous

ghostwriteous

Noob
If the buff turns out to be as drab as it looks, does it mean NRS feels that he is already a finely tuned character?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4
 
laudanum09

laudanum09

Darling
ghostwriteous said:
If the buff turns out to be as drab as it looks, does it mean NRS feels that he is already a finely tuned character?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4
Click to expand...

good question. maybe the fact that every string he has is safe either on its own or by tossing acid flower after, makes them think he's good? does anyone else in the game have all + or safe strings? It's really not that big of a deal when there's 0 mixup to any of them.
 
OnlineRon91

OnlineRon91

Joker++
laudanum09 said:
good question. maybe the fact that every string he has is safe either on its own or by tossing acid flower after, makes them think he's good? does anyone else in the game have all + or safe strings? It's really not that big of a deal when there's 0 mixup to any of them.
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Hmmm, supes can cancel most of his strings with breath and make them safe. Unlike Joker though, he has the best string in the game, a real 50/50 on wake up, solid wake up options, decent zoning, best corner damage combos, fastest super in the game, air dash, let me just stop :(
 
Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
laudanum09 said:
good question. maybe the fact that every string he has is safe either on its own or by tossing acid flower after, makes them think he's good? does anyone else in the game have all + or safe strings? It's really not that big of a deal when there's 0 mixup to any of them.
Click to expand...
its funny because all the others characters safe strings are the only ones worth using
 
Circus

Circus

Part-Time Kano Hostage
Its crazy to me how even joker players arent seeing the huge buff of crowbar being safe.

Its only 23frames, stops pre jump attempts clean, is overhead so people will be in fear holding back from a certain range opening up for his 16 frame gunshot that is high but +4 on block, mb version will now lead him at more advantage for a setup afterward, the acid flower at +4 means he'll also have a great move that will stuff pre jumps or mostly anything else from the blocked flower range so he could use the fear if the crowbar in those situations for a set up or pressure, AND its finally safe now so all this stuff won't risk a full punish. And even though itd be more of a surprise tactic, he could end strings with crowbar or low laughing gas. It would be fuzzy guardable, but itd lead him safe or at a large advantage...

That and he gets a parry on par with killer frosts. This is big stuff in my opinion. Im seriously shocked by the lack of deeper thought into it. If he s getting all this and his string that jails so hard that he gets free teeth on block finally doesn't whiff on some crouching opponents i seriously can't see him not being a gigantic threat.
 
Lord Hollow

Lord Hollow

The Sage Of Michigan.
Circus said:
Its crazy to me how even joker players arent seeing the huge buff of crowbar being safe.

Its only 23frames, stops pre jump attempts clean, is overhead so people will be in fear holding back from a certain range opening up for his 16 frame gunshot that is high but +4 on block, mb version will now lead him at more advantage for a setup afterward, the acid flower at +4 means he'll also have a great move that will stuff pre jumps or mostly anything else from the blocked flower range so he could use the fear if the crowbar in those situations for a set up or pressure, AND its finally safe now so all this stuff won't risk a full punish. And even though itd be more of a surprise tactic, he could end strings with crowbar or low laughing gas. It would be fuzzy guardable, but itd lead him safe or at a large advantage...

That and he gets a parry on par with killer frosts. This is big stuff in my opinion. Im seriously shocked by the lack of deeper thought into it. If he s getting all this and his string that jails so hard that he gets free teeth on block finally doesn't whiff on some crouching opponents i seriously can't see him not being a gigantic threat.
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In the right, dedicated hands, yes. I agree.
 
StevoSuprem0

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Circus said:
Its crazy to me how even joker players arent seeing the huge buff of crowbar being safe.

Its only 23frames, stops pre jump attempts clean, is overhead so people will be in fear holding back from a certain range opening up for his 16 frame gunshot that is high but +4 on block, mb version will now lead him at more advantage for a setup afterward, the acid flower at +4 means he'll also have a great move that will stuff pre jumps or mostly anything else from the blocked flower range so he could use the fear if the crowbar in those situations for a set up or pressure, AND its finally safe now so all this stuff won't risk a full punish. And even though itd be more of a surprise tactic, he could end strings with crowbar or low laughing gas. It would be fuzzy guardable, but itd lead him safe or at a large advantage...

That and he gets a parry on par with killer frosts. This is big stuff in my opinion. Im seriously shocked by the lack of deeper thought into it. If he s getting all this and his string that jails so hard that he gets free teeth on block finally doesn't whiff on some crouching opponents i seriously can't see him not being a gigantic threat.
Click to expand...
First off, every Joker main on here has said that the crowbar is the most promising part of these notes, actually giving the move some use. It being safe on block is huge for his mobility and sweep distance mixup. The sweep mixup with the crowbar is one of it's greatest uses due to Joker's sweep range (not gun and flower- gun will be ducked, though dash cancel mindgames are there, and flower is primarily used to end combos to gain advantage). Crowar being safe now is great, but sweep is still -17 or something on block, so very punishable.
However, we were hoping for some mixup for combo starters this patch because that is something Joker has none of. This improvement alone just digs him deeper into the footsie ditch without being able to follow up in any real way. This is why most of us are holding our applause until we see the frame data on the MB change. This could lead into setups and advantage situations that he sorely needs at the cost of a little meter. It would also create a REAL overhead threat, not just 8-12% damage and a reset to neutral.
The parry change makes it on par with Batman, KF, and WW in term of frames, but it still CANNOT be used as a reversal or wakeup, which is probably the most useful time to be able to throw out a parry. That and the reward being a pretty useless buff makes the risk/reward on a random neutral game parry pretty bad, which is the reason you don't see many people use it.
Basically, crowbar changes are great and needed because the move is horrendously punishable in it's current state which makes it kinda feel like a fix pending whatever the MB change actually does, the parry change is not the change the it needs, and the flower thing is a fix to make it function properly. Thus the lackluster response.
 
Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Circus said:
Its crazy to me how even joker players arent seeing the huge buff of crowbar being safe.

Its only 23frames, stops pre jump attempts clean, is overhead so people will be in fear holding back from a certain range opening up for his 16 frame gunshot that is high but +4 on block, mb version will now lead him at more advantage for a setup afterward, the acid flower at +4 means he'll also have a great move that will stuff pre jumps or mostly anything else from the blocked flower range so he could use the fear if the crowbar in those situations for a set up or pressure, AND its finally safe now so all this stuff won't risk a full punish. And even though itd be more of a surprise tactic, he could end strings with crowbar or low laughing gas. It would be fuzzy guardable, but itd lead him safe or at a large advantage...

That and he gets a parry on par with killer frosts. This is big stuff in my opinion. Im seriously shocked by the lack of deeper thought into it. If he s getting all this and his string that jails so hard that he gets free teeth on block finally doesn't whiff on some crouching opponents i seriously can't see him not being a gigantic threat.
Click to expand...
A huge thank you goes to this post for saying what we joker players knew for ages in a condescending way. Top quality post, 10/10 would read again.

23 is not fast at all for an advancing move, it's decent but not great.

Overhead so people will fear holding back? Do you think overheads are blocked ducking?

We already do that flower stuff. Laughing gas is interruptible and punishable on reaction with 8f moves, you can even jump it for full combo even when used from a blockstrings.

Unless his parry also gives him a full combo then it's not on par with KF's. 212 teeth is overrated and there are too many options available after to escape the setup.
 
Circus

Circus

Part-Time Kano Hostage
Qwark28 said:
A huge thank you goes to this post for saying what we joker players knew for ages in a condescending way. Top quality post, 10/10 would read again.

23 is not fast at all for an advancing move, it's decent but not great.

Overhead so people will fear holding back? Do you think overheads are blocked ducking?

We already do that flower stuff. Laughing gas is interruptible and punishable on reaction with 8f moves, you can even jump it for full combo even when used from a blockstrings.

Unless his parry also gives him a full combo then it's not on par with KF's. 212 teeth is overrated and there are too many options available after to escape the setup.
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Unclench those buttcheeks buddy.

If you read it condesending or thought i was referring to you then that's all in your head. just because i was shocked by the lack of positive remarks doesn't mean I'm trying to lecture the players that know better. Stevo already cleared up the lack of the response, and he did it without being a smartass.

By the way i said 'in fear, holding back' not "fear of holding back".
 
laudanum09

laudanum09

Darling
Circus
There's too many variables here to really gauge anything and unless they do something radical, i.e. + frames on block and less pushback for the normal version and + frames on hit and less pushback for the MB version, this means virtually squat.

Best case scenario is that the changes are just not listed at all, which is a mystery as to why. Actual advantage to the normal version, way way way less pushback and enough advantage off of the MB version and less pushback on hit to throw out teeth and get a jump in. None of this stuff was mentioned, from the sound of it the normal version will be -5 or 6 on block and MBed you might get a safe jump opportunity. That does nothing for the character he can't already do in other ways.

I'm worried from this patch list that they have no idea what they're doing when it comes to this character.
 
KonDcnT

KonDcnT

KonDcnT
I wasn't expecting the improvement to launch Jo into top tier over night. That being said, when I saw the list of improvements I was happy about the parry. When I saw they chose to improve crowbar my first thought was "Who the hell uses crowbar?" Didn't really think the fkower needed buffing. But looking at the direction they are taking the character, I'm guessing that they intend Joker to be about pressure and unpredictablity. I guess we will just to have to wait and see when the patch comes out. Maybe the crowbar will give us an advantage for a jump in. Hopefully this isn't everything we will get in this patch, and hopefully this isn't the last patch for Mr. J. We'll just have to take what the give us and continue the lab work.
 
DoctrineDark

DoctrineDark

Too little, too late...
I think they should fix the general mobility of the game, especially joker have mobility problems to walk. Injustice has a problem with the basic directions, example: start walking, back, forward ... because of this problem of basic mobility some special moves like BF+ are a real problem on reaction
 
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