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Injustice Balance Patch: Joker Changes Preview From Ed Boon

laudanum09

laudanum09

Darling
me too, but I was hoping for less indirect buffs. without frame data this means nothing to anyone, even us in the joker forum can only vaguely guess.

I seriously hope there's something tangible like F2 overhead, b1 into RLG or something obvious to Laughing gas and Rolling Laughing Gas, two moves that have zero neutral game utility.
 
Gilbagz

Gilbagz

Joker here~
laudanum09 said:
unless there's some potential to cause some damage or make opponents guess off of a blocked/hit crowbar and blocked flower, this is kind of garbage. If there's something to it, it's indirect and technical, i.e. potential setups and follow ups that could apply. Considering the pushback of flower and crowbar on block and crowbar just throwing the opponent across the screen on hit, my imagination is grasping at straws trying to figure out how these could lead to anything.

can StevoSuprem0 or Gilbagz or Qwark28 enlighten me on what these 'buffs' could indirectly lead to?

I really hope this is just the tip of the iceberg, really underwhelming compared to the other buffs teased.
Click to expand...
- standard crowbar being safe opens up his footsie game tremendously. My matches have come to the point where people will just sit there crouch blocking. Most d2's can aa j3 easily now. With crowbar being safe, we can legitimately 50/50 between d3 and crowbar. Crowbar can be blocked on reaction, but if they focus on trying to block the d3 and crowbar it opens up our jump game again. At the very least, it will force them to walk backwards and eventually corner themselves.
Both options are currently punishable though. Crowbar does have more range than sweep, if it was completely safe, his footsie game would improve so much.

- increased hit advantage on mb crowbar will most likely give time for unblockable set ups in the corner, and maybe like a dash in safe set of teeth midscreen. Cuz currently, there is enough time to empty jump in and be safe for both standard and mb crowbar.
- consistent flower block/hit stun is just a fix. So many times i've ended a combo with flower, and then done insta j2 on the read of them jumping, and still lose to their instant j2 because of being negative on the flower hit. This should help some what.
- 1f parry will make it harder to be hit out of parry. Parrying b1,3 gl and 3,3 with wonderwoman should be heaps easier now. Getting hit out of parry will be a just frame now. The main punish now will just be delaying moves to hit after the parry window.

The main buff was the crowbar. Should help a lot in the neutral game. Have to wait and see how safe it is though.
 
Flash_Lantern

Flash_Lantern

Noob
All joker needs is back 1 to be cancellable! that's it. He has no low combo starts, that's all he needs. Not buffs to a trait that is garbage! it's faster, but wait it still doesn't parry shit on Superman! good Job Boon!
 
Fromundaman

Fromundaman

I write too much.
laudanum09 said:
unless there's some potential to cause some damage or make opponents guess off of a blocked/hit crowbar and blocked flower, this is kind of garbage. If there's something to it, it's indirect and technical, i.e. potential setups and follow ups that could apply. Considering the pushback of flower and crowbar on block and crowbar just throwing the opponent across the screen on hit, my imagination is grasping at straws trying to figure out how these could lead to anything.

can StevoSuprem0 or Gilbagz or Qwark28 enlighten me on what these 'buffs' could indirectly lead to?

I really hope this is just the tip of the iceberg, really underwhelming compared to the other buffs teased.
Click to expand...
Well, Flower is already positive and safe on block, so I'm really hoping that the change means that we now get a free action from it. If we do, that could be huge. D2>Flower would become a wall at mid range that gives us a free option off of it.
Of course, maybe I'm hoping for too much, but I don't see a point in changing it otherwise.
 
Fromundaman

Fromundaman

I write too much.
Flash_Lantern said:
All joker needs is back 1 to be cancellable! that's it. He has no low combo starts, that's all he needs. Not buffs to a trait that is garbage! it's faster, but wait it still doesn't parry shit on Superman! good Job Boon!
Click to expand...
B1 is cancelable, you just can't combo off of it due to the time it takes for RLG to come out being longer than the hitstun B1 provides.
 
laudanum09

laudanum09

Darling
Thanks Gilbagz

I see what you mean about the 'footsie' game, Injustice footsies that is. I guess tossing out crowbar is okay and gives you a corner push but for the damage it seems kind of like trying to make a meal out of scraps. It's really no game changer unless it leads to something else that actually does damage. Getting a gunshot here or there and a crowbar isn't going to help Joker when other bottom tiers are getting direct buffs. We will have to wait and see what the frames say.

At a point I would have been shocked if they didn't give him F2 overhead and/or b1 into MB RLG combo but now I'll be genuinely surprised if they do give him something that doesn't require another setup or another variable situation to get damage.
 
Gilbagz

Gilbagz

Joker here~
laudanum09 said:
Thanks Gilbagz

I see what you mean about the 'footsie' game, Injustice footsies that is. I guess tossing out crowbar is okay and gives you a corner push but for the damage it seems kind of like trying to make a meal out of scraps. It's really no game changer unless it leads to something else that actually does damage. Getting a gunshot here or there and a crowbar isn't going to help Joker when other bottom tiers are getting direct buffs. We will have to wait and see what the frames say.

At a point I would have been shocked if they didn't give him F2 overhead and/or b1 into MB RLG combo but now I'll be genuinely surprised if they do give him something that doesn't require another setup or another variable situation to get damage.
Click to expand...
lol yeah 23f overhead for 9%...
Not the greatest, but the corner carry is nice.
Maybe i'm just being too much of an optimist LOL
 
AK elitegoomba

AK elitegoomba

http://www.twitch.tv/elitegoomba
not nearly enough to make him competitive IMO. I guess we will see with the "full list" or whatever but these changes.......

lol @ speeding parry startup up. this is so meaningless, it's already 2f, so... are they going to speed it up by 1f? this makes next to no difference whatsoever, if they really want to buff the parry they need to do any or all of the following:

1. NEEDS to have a reversal window
2. more active frames
3. hold 4 to remain active + dash cancel

anyway these changes have no effect on the neutral game which is where joker really falters and is pretty much the only reason he is bad
 
laudanum09

laudanum09

Darling
Fromundaman said:
Well, Flower is already positive and safe on block, so I'm really hoping that the change means that we now get a free action from it. If we do, that could be huge. D2>Flower would become a wall at mid range that gives us a free option off of it.
Of course, maybe I'm hoping for too much, but I don't see a point in changing it otherwise.
Click to expand...

Unless you can make them guess, what free action would lead to damage? get another chance to jump around with 2 and 3 for free? Joker has no offensive game. It doesn't matter if you can or can't get in or get continuous pressure when there's no way to open someone up. Right now you get real damage from your opponent sleeping and not blocking a crossup and ghetto to highly technical and matchup dependent teeth resets.

If he doesn't get some actual offensive boost in the final patch, I'm going to be really disappointed. It's one thing to main a mid-tier and pout over minor fixes, but Joker is bottom 3 and I expected way more from what's essentially hype building and marketing tweets. Unless they're saving the best for last (which doesn't match the patch note pattern already established) this is looking grim.
 
laudanum09

laudanum09

Darling
Flash_Lantern said:
No one throws out Jokers crowbar, safe or unsafe, that's just not smart.
Click to expand...

Exactly my point. If crowbar is safe, then just tossing it out there midscreen is still a yolo move with no return unless there's a setup to be had or less pushback on block to give some chance at continuous pressure (with no mixup potential btw). I don't see how it really helps with mobility or 'footsies' unless you were to just toss it out with an educated guess at best. It's like hopping around with j2 and j3, you're fishing for your opponent to be asleep. At best you space yourself to be ambiguous with the jump in but that's polishing a turd.
 
Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Gilbagz said:
- standard crowbar being safe opens up his footsie game tremendously. My matches have come to the point where people will just sit there crouch blocking. Most d2's can aa j3 easily now. With crowbar being safe, we can legitimately 50/50 between d3 and crowbar. Crowbar can be blocked on reaction, but if they focus on trying to block the d3 and crowbar it opens up our jump game again. At the very least, it will force them to walk backwards and eventually corner themselves.
Both options are currently punishable though. Crowbar does have more range than sweep, if it was completely safe, his footsie game would improve so much.

- increased hit advantage on mb crowbar will most likely give time for unblockable set ups in the corner, and maybe like a dash in safe set of teeth midscreen. Cuz currently, there is enough time to empty jump in and be safe for both standard and mb crowbar.
- consistent flower block/hit stun is just a fix. So many times i've ended a combo with flower, and then done insta j2 on the read of them jumping, and still lose to their instant j2 because of being negative on the flower hit. This should help some what.
- 1f parry will make it harder to be hit out of parry. Parrying b1,3 gl and 3,3 with wonderwoman should be heaps easier now. Getting hit out of parry will be a just frame now. The main punish now will just be delaying moves to hit after the parry window.

The main buff was the crowbar. Should help a lot in the neutral game. Have to wait and see how safe it is though.
Click to expand...
almost no d2 in the game can punish j3 on reaction unless you do it late

sweep and crowbar have the same range
 
Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
laudanum09 said:
Exactly my point. If crowbar is safe, then just tossing it out there midscreen is still a yolo move with no return unless there's a setup to be had or less pushback on block to give some chance at continuous pressure (with no mixup potential btw). I don't see how it really helps with mobility or 'footsies' unless you were to just toss it out with an educated guess at best. It's like hopping around with j2 and j3, you're fishing for your opponent to be asleep. At best you space yourself to be ambiguous with the jump in but that's polishing a turd.
Click to expand...
J3 is used to get in, j2 is used for crossups once youre in, its not a bad tactic, jokers built around it.
 
laudanum09

laudanum09

Darling
Qwark28 said:
J3 is used to get in, j2 is used for crossups once youre in, its not a bad tactic, jokers built around it.
Click to expand...

regardless of how good j3 or 2 is, if jumping around to fish for hits is all the offense he has for the foreseeable future, then he's doomed to bottom barrel.
 
Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
laudanum09 said:
regardless of how good j3 or 2 is, if jumping around to fish for hits is all the offense he has for the foreseeable future, then he's doomed to bottom barrel.
Click to expand...
alone yeah, its not much but its still a very good option for those who cant handle his jumps, the char was designed to jump
 
laudanum09

laudanum09

Darling
I agree he was designed to hop around. fits the character too.

One thing I was randomly thinking is that this character has not been learned/developed/played to his fullest. I'm not up playing at all, I think he's trash and he's my main but I still would like to see it. This would entail someone playing with great execution, knowledge of all matchup specific teeth setups and counters to variable escapes, combined with mastery over matchup specific parry use and overall creative ways to work around his lack of mixups and neutral game.

If tiers depended on how much dedication and technical knowledge goes into a character, Joker is top five for sure lol.
 
Fromundaman

Fromundaman

I write too much.
laudanum09 said:
Unless you can make them guess, what free action would lead to damage? get another chance to jump around with 2 and 3 for free? Joker has no offensive game. It doesn't matter if you can or can't get in or get continuous pressure when there's no way to open someone up. Right now you get real damage from your opponent sleeping and not blocking a crossup and ghetto to highly technical and matchup dependent teeth resets.

If he doesn't get some actual offensive boost in the final patch, I'm going to be really disappointed. It's one thing to main a mid-tier and pout over minor fixes, but Joker is bottom 3 and I expected way more from what's essentially hype building and marketing tweets. Unless they're saving the best for last (which doesn't match the patch note pattern already established) this is looking grim.
Click to expand...
Well, it's not a huge amount, but if we get a safe dash from it, then D2>flower becomes an advancing wall which slowly pushes to the corner and more importantly can keep Joker in. That and it would set up a grab, and I assume if we have time to do a safe dash we *might* be able to do D3 or BF3 for some sort of ghetto 50/50. We might also have time to throw teeth and force some sort of reaction.

That said this is all speculation, but I don't see a point in changing the move unless it lets us do some of this.

That said both this and the Crowbar change seem (to me anyway) to be made for Joker to be able to get back in mid/close range after a blocked flower or a successful crowbar.

I do agree though. I don't think these changes will get him out of low tier, but then again I didn't pick up Joker in the hopes that he would someday become top, so w/e. I can definitely see these changes helping me out though.
 
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