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If there was one more patch...

Why that Shirai Ryu teleport change? I thought he was fine as is. I like your universal changes a lot though Reo, especially the block breaker change. Sub Zero changes are great too.

Universal - All d1s have slightly more recovery and are only around +5-+8. Jump attack nerfs galore. Unsafe moves have more recovery so they're more easily punished. Dive kicks and Air mobility specials have more recovery on whiff. Stamina no longer recharges over time, it only fully recharges after every round and refills slighly after a landed hit, but it's consumed half as fast. Backdashes cost no stamina. Breakers cost half stamina for both players. Interactables can now be used as wakeups and have 5-10 invincibility frames on wake up only. Corner jump interactables no longer have invincibility. Stance switch has 6 invincibility frames on start up.

Quan - d1 is +5.
Warlock - EX scoop has armor but doesn't launch unless you MB it, normal scoop can be MB'd to launch too, 21f3 can be special cancel'd.

Shinnok - B3 no longer launches and is -15, EX amulet is plus 5.
Imposter - Tricky portal has longer start up and more recovery.

Sub Zero - B2 no longer launches, s4 starts up in 10 frames, s11 has 18 frames of recovery, 112 is +3 with slight push back, 114 is -8, b33d4 is -5, B12 does 2% less damage.
Unbreakable - Same as Reo's but ice aura has a few less recovery frames so combo links aren't as tight. Also EX ice aura shatter is +5 on block.

Kitana - Rising fan into MB float is no longer a block string.
 
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Reactions: REO

TamedLizard

Buff George
Is Reptile's J4 that abrasive? Or is he taking one for the team due to universally nerfed jump ins?

Also, why make B2 -6? Just curious on your reasoning.
 

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
Super surprised some Shinnok players agree he could warrant a nerf of some kind in the future if this game ever got some extra love and more balance patches. Too many people that play Kitana and Shinnok think their characters are the epitome of balance and "honesty" lol.

Is the general consensus Kitana is still around mid tier? Haven't seen a tier lists lately so Idk, but ton of top players I've been talking to lately think she could be top 5 and is definitely top tier. Crazy how it was a blow up calling her BS 6 months ago but now people are starting to see how strong her pre-patch Jason esque D+3 is, her absurd pressure game in corner and her ridiculous jump strength and crippling neutral for many characters. Also combine the fact that she builds meter like candy, has some of the best armor attacks, can mix with her overhead, floats, / millions lows, x-ray, hits like a truck, SUPER SAFE in general, etc. I would be shocked if NRS didn't touch her at all if there was some kind of big patch in the future. It's kinda like the 2016 Mileena situation again where almost all Mileena mains thought she was fine because of something like "she's unsafe bro, just block and punish"
Pretty sure a lot of us knows she's top tier bro lol. Super solid character.

I wouldn't go as far as to say she's 2016 Mileena but she's definitely good. REALLY good.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Is Reptile's J4 that abrasive? Or is he taking one for the team due to universally nerfed jump ins?

Also, why make B2 -6? Just curious on your reasoning.
It's pretty damn good. Not like oppressive or anything but it certainly could be slightly adjusted.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Super surprised some Shinnok players agree he could warrant a nerf of some kind in the future if this game ever got some extra love and more balance patches. Too many people that play Kitana and Shinnok think their characters are the epitome of balance and "honesty" lol.

Is the general consensus Kitana is still around mid tier? Haven't seen a tier lists lately so Idk, but ton of top players I've been talking to lately think she could be top 5 and is definitely top tier. Crazy how it was a blow up calling her BS 6 months ago but now people are starting to see how strong her pre-patch Jason esque D+3 is, her absurd pressure game in corner and her ridiculous jump strength and crippling neutral for many characters. Also combine the fact that she builds meter like candy, has some of the best armor attacks, can mix with her overhead, floats, / millions lows, x-ray, hits like a truck, SUPER SAFE in general, etc. I would be shocked if NRS didn't touch her at all if there was some kind of big patch in the future. It's kinda like the 2016 Mileena situation again where almost all Mileena mains thought she was fine because of something like "she's unsafe bro, just block and punish"
She's really good. I don't think anyone would disagree at this point.
 
Reactions: REO

ATP2014

The best mediocre Batman
Speaking on Alien:

Konjurer: No changes leads to this still being the worst of the 3 (imo) because it lacks the armor/normals of Tarkatan and the safety/space control of Acidic. The Eggs can't be looped in most practical situations, and the Drone call only really works vs airborne zoners (Kitana, Pyromancer, Pretty Lady).

Suggested changes:

Universal:
Make Tail Flip -7
Tail flip is now a mid
Remove gap between F134 and Tail flip

Tarkatan:
Allow normal rekkas to be delayed on hit only (EX Rekkas unchanged)
Allow meter build on all blocked hits of EX Rekka

Konjurer:
Improve tracking of Facehugger
Reduce start up of regular/EX egg summon by 10 frames
 

Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
On the note of Jason's B1. Unlike Kotal, the man has a 9f B3 which is better at the ranges he needs a mid for. B1 will still do its "Hi I'm a near full screen normal" job.
nah, just leave it, imo, the low profiling issue is the only thing that bothered me with this character. if dvorah can have her staggerable f1 pressure, don't see why jason can't keep this 1 tool. Otherwise if it absolutely had to be a high, it better get sped up ala mileena's b1.
 

Wigy

There it is...
Reo is proposing altering the hitbox though. If you lose the hitbox behind Kenshi, it's not going to be better than exbf2.

It being overhead doesn't matter if you're using it for the armour.

Exbf2 doesn't push them full screen in Possessed.

And you use exbf2 if the opponent knows that using an advancing string fucks up exdf4 or you need a faster armoured move than exdf4
ATM with it hitting behind him the risk reward on him waking up is always in his favour for most of the cast. Two hits of armour plus on block overhead hits behind him 3/4 screen range.

Some of that shit needs to go lol.

Considering the whiffing bug is character specific and he has a way to cover his ass on it with bf2, rhe backward hitbox should go.

Most characters wakeups can be crossed up and punished.
 

Espio

Kokomo
I like the Kitana changes, I actually wish Kitana was reverted back to her pre-October self. She felt so unique and she was still a threat before getting her added flutter/dp pressure on top of her new unreactable overhead.

You had to condition, throw etc a lot more and she was more unique and more enjoyable as a result. A character like her I don't feel like should have ever had super sustainable offense. Her slightly plus staggers and ex fans should have been the extent of it. It's weird that some of her offense rivals that of characters more focused on offensive play. I also feel like a character like her should have risky armor moves so removing the cancel on block is a nice compliment to that.

Those changes would leave her still good and serviceable.

I like that Goro change, we've discussed this before, but I like the idea of changes that actually strengthen a character's game instead of changes that seem to alter their core. He can get in reasonably well now, but adding that high damage projectile eating threat at full screen would be a really nice gameplay accent without being too strong.


If a lot of the low profiling was addressed in a legit way, that would help out a lot of characters in so many match ups. I feel like there's quite a few match ups that are needlessly hard simply because of it being so rampant. There's no reason that someone should be at negative frames and can still go under your pokes or fast mids without using armor or any other actual investment.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
I like the Kitana changes, I actually wish Kitana was reverted back to her pre-October self. She felt so unique and she was still a threat before getting her added flutter/dp pressure on top of her new unreactable overhead.

You had to condition, throw etc a lot more and she was more unique and more enjoyable as a result. A character like her I don't feel like should have ever had super sustainable offense. Her slightly plus staggers and ex fans should have been the extent of it. It's weird that some of her offense rivals that of characters more focused on offensive play. I also feel like a character like her should have risky armor moves so removing the cancel on block is a nice compliment to that.

Those changes would leave her still good and serviceable.

I like that Goro change, we've discussed this before, but I like the idea of changes that actually strengthen a character's game instead of changes that seem to alter their core. He can get in reasonably well now, but adding that high damage projectile eating threat at full screen would be a really nice gameplay accent without being too strong.


If a lot of the low profiling was addressed in a legit way, that would help out a lot of characters in so many match ups. I feel like there's quite a few match ups that are needlessly hard simply because of it being so rampant. There's no reason that someone should be at negative frames and can still go under your pokes or fast mids without using armor or any other actual investment.
That bolded statement. Is half the reason the Mileena matchup is hard for Kotal. She low profiles his D1 like come on.
 

SylverRye

Official Loop Kang Main
Reo is proposing altering the hitbox though. If you lose the hitbox behind Kenshi, it's not going to be better than exbf2.

It being overhead doesn't matter if you're using it for the armour.

Exbf2 doesn't push them full screen in Possessed.

And you use exbf2 if the opponent knows that using an advancing string fucks up exdf4 or you need a faster armoured move than exdf4
It would still be a move with massive range, a crazy hitbox that doesn't hit behind anymore and +5. You just can't freely toss it out anymore. You have to think.
 

SneakyTortoise

Official Master of Salt
ATM with it hitting behind him the risk reward on him waking up is always in his favour for most of the cast. Two hits of armour plus on block overhead hits behind him 3/4 screen range.

Some of that shit needs to go lol.

Considering the whiffing bug is character specific and he has a way to cover his ass on it with bf2, rhe backward hitbox should go.

Most characters wakeups can be crossed up and punished.
Yeah, I know it is an absurd move.

I'd rather they made it -ve on block and took away multiple hits. Leave the hitbox as it is.

It's not really that specific. I'd be surprised if there are many characters that can't use it, but nobody does.
 

RyuKazuya

Jesus is my Lord and Savior!
I would maybe recommend giving liu kang a little more recoveryframes on his low fireball as well as his d3 (a little only though), so Johnny Cage doesn't feel like a moron moving closer to him.

Additionally Lao should get armour on his ex Spin and simultaneously loose its ability to launch.

Fix Quans Armor buff in the Sorcerer Variation by giving him a longer cooldown or letting the portal disappear as soon as he absorbs a hit so you do not get destroyed in the corner.

Id also like to add a better hitbox to jax's ex bf4, so it can act as a real mid without randomly whiffing. Other than that i think Jax is fine.

Oh and Flamefist should get an adjusted hitbox on his bfb4, since it sometimes whiffs on crouching Kano.

Johnny should get adjusted hitboxes on his ex forceballs so they act like real mids without giving certain characters the opportunity to just duck a mid. I am aware of the fact that it always hits the opponent upclose.

Last but not least, increase Takedas hurtboxes on his ronin variation. It's not that it's broken or something, but sometimes it gets annoying that i have to respect his b1, b11 when I am out of meter without having the opportunity to poke properly. At this point I might be wrong and I apologise to all Takeda players. But it sometimes feel like I cannot counterpoke his b1's.
 

Second Saint

A man with too many names.
I love these Blood God changes. Blood totem functioning like that would be pretty damn fun, just chipping away and healing yourself the whole time, then stealing their meter.

I've always liked the idea of multiple stacks on the Venomous' throw, but it's got the potential to be broken af. Your intent is like a 17% throw right? Which is great, but Venom stacks unlike anything else in this game. I'm not sure you fully understand what you're asking for. You give her three applications and the bonus damage will make it sky rocket, especially if it's just two more of the standard 1.5% total applications.

Let's say it is 3 applications of 1.5% each and the bonus damage for 3 stacks. 12 + 3(1.5) + 1.05 = 17.55%. Well hey, that's right in line with other strong throws like Johnny's. Now let's do it from a restand with stacks rolling like 212~ex db1, NJP, ji2, f22~one hit spray. You've already got 4 stacks going, and if timed right, you can get the throw to finish before they run out, which in the current game gives you a 21% throw. With three stacks on the throw and the bonus damage for 7 stacks total, minus the small amount that ticked in the combo, you'd get something like: 12 + 2.5 + 2 + 1.5(5) + 7.35 - 1.18 = 30.17. Even if it was d1 applications that are only .5 total, it'd only be 3% less at 27.17.

That's a really big throw. Has D'vorah been to the swamp and taken some lessons from Grundy? The math could be slightly off due to the scaling that the first two ticks might have recieved in the combo, but we're only talking about MAYBE 1% less. You don't need to hit 212 to get those kind of stacks, either. That's perfectly viable from an NJP.

The projectile absorb on the spray is a good idea, but it would probably need some tweaks to actually be useful. Spray's a 20f start up move with a lot of recovery. You're going to have to call out the projectiles pre-emptively to get it to work and could likely get whiff punished for your trouble if the opponent baits correctly. I think the spray needs to be sped up some for this to work, which in and of itself would be a pretty large buff to her counter poke meta, possibly some combos, gaps, armor breaking on hkds, etc.

And the f34 1+3 buff is the most beautiful anti-zoning thing I've ever seen despite putting them full screen. It's unique, useful, and I love it. It would force some characters to actually footsies with D'vorah, and she's pretty good at that.

She definitely wouldn't be low tier anymore, that's for sure.