I don't think it's too early for a really broad tier grouping...

[God Confirm]

I can't really disagree strongly with any of your points - individually, they're valid. However I'm not sure those points add up to him being an unviable piece of trash. To me, as long as a character has - at most - one (ish) 3-7 matchups, he's viable. He will take more work, but it's possible. Do you think he has more than one?

Personally I'm not sure he even has one 3-7 - I haven't played any matchups that felt worse than 4-6 so far. While I'm not sure i can name a matchup Brainiac actually wins off the top of my head, as long as he has limited horrible losing matchups, I think he seems like a viable low/mid tier.

i guess we have different measurement for tiering then. I'm not saying hes so far behind that that he can't win, just say that when even the worst characters have better dirt than him and when he does everything equal or worse to the rest of the cast, that I think it puts him in a tier below everyone. He's just a sad design to me and doesnt even feel like he has the core tools that make a real fighter

 

[God Confirm]

If you say so.. I see people learning the Atrocitus matchup. But I dont see Atrocitus falling off by any means if he stays the way he is.

maybe when those same people learn that pushblocking avoids his mix and eats 1/4 - 1/2 his trait which doesnt come back for like 20 seconds and leaves him a pretty meh character without, then after that you might see his effectiveness drop off.

 

[Zoidberg747]

i disagree with his tier list, but thats a little harsh. Atrocitus is gonna fall off the deep end once ppl learn to deal with it. This man might just have more foresight than you do

As someone who plays Atrocitus I strongly disagree. He's absolutely top tier and will stay that way until adjustments probably.

maybe when those same people learn that pushblocking avoids his mix and eats 1/4 - 1/2 his trait which doesnt come back for like 20 seconds and leaves him a pretty meh character without, then after that you might see his effectiveness drop off.

This is true but he doesn't lose having some of the best footsie tools in the game when he's without trait. He also has a way to always keep his footsie tools safe (well mostly anyway). You don't have to risk everything with the mix all the time which is where I think some people get hung up. Even if you pushblock the mix his puddle can still check anyone doing anything from fullscreen, and with trait up he basically gets in for free.

 

[omooba]

I think Super Girl is good. She has decent damage, good mobility, a free overhead crossup into B3 (ppl still aren't blocking this, myself included) and solid zoning w trait.

And I think Black Canary is top tier simply bc of how quickly she gets trait, her ability to re-stand, and her ridiculous damage. After Black Adam, she strikes me as one of the members of the cast who hits WAY too hard. Yes she relies heavily on trait, but once she gets in and mixes you up once your lifebar is pretty much gone. Cross up overhead leg-lock that leads into B3 for big damage is ridiculously good.

300 1 bar midscreen...

 

[KingKhrystopher]

If you think Black Canary is better than Atrocitus then you are not capable of making even an early tier list.

If you can only disagree with someone's tier list but not explain why you're incapable of even holding a discussion.
What is it with TYM? If you disagree with someone, EXPLAIN WHY. People just throw around their opinion as if it's a clearly obvious and is a fact. If you think he's wrong, bring evidence to the table. Don't just be rude and say he's wrong, because you're adding nothing to the discussion.

 

[KingKhrystopher]

300 1 bar midscreen...

For all of the tools Supergirl has, that's decent.

 

[omooba]

For all of the tools Supergirl has, that's decent.

what the hell no no it's not. what tools are so nasty that this is fine? 5% projectile? bruh

 

[EntropicByDesign]

I just don't get the point of a tier list we all expect to be wrong?

I am all for a thread that discusses character strengths and weaknesses as we see them, in relation to one another.. but this tier grouping obsession just doesn't make sense.

You mention semantics and this may be the same thing, but, it's an important distinction.

I feel like the discussion should move away from tier grouping and just be about who we think are quite good and who we think are quite bad... But shrug.

 

[DeftMonk]

I have seen a lot of tier lists circulating the net with Atrocitus and Aquaman either low or low-mid tier and flash top 8...dunno what crack those people are smokin.

NM just checked eventhubs and flash plummeted as the other two I mentioned skyrocketed. The other lists I saw were on comic book websites so Ill forgive them haha. But another char I have noticed fluctuates big time on these lists is black canary. People complain about getting in witth her and I dont play zoners really or her so I am curious... does her cartwheel roll thing not get in on zoners very well? How does it compare to a mb roll?

 

[EntropicByDesign]

I feel like BROAD groupings aren't too bad and do facilitate discussion..

That said, the state of the game if such that I feel like we do have a basic idea of who's quite strong, that's honestly not usually that difficult to identify after a couple weeks, provided we try to look at things objectively.

Deadshot is the poster boy here. For the first few days he was the most broken thing since dropped fine china, then people started to learn options and what they could do and where he had holes and when they could do this or that, blah blah, and now by and large, he's considered quite good, but not OMGNUNBERONEWECANTEVEN.

That said I feel like the following characters are quite strong:

(Not in order)

Black Adam. Hits like a truck, can zone and play keep-away, can go in and push your face out of your ass. Trait gives him tons of options. He's just rock solid.

Aquaman. Again, can zone, can handle you close. Does damage. Super defensive. Good strings. Lacking nothing really.

Bats. I mean... Damage. Mobility. Defense. Zoning. Rushdown. Mix-ups. His trait by itself is like a full character.

Atrocitus. My main. Welcome! Fuck you. Fuck my negative frames. Fuck your plus frames. I have a cat and my cat says it's never not my turn. Advancing mids? Here, have some. Damage? Have some. Mix-uppys? Got those. Vomit that applies a stacking DoT? Why not. Oh Dex went away? Don't worry, he won't be gone long, then you can eat these plus frames some more.


Just the characters that scream "WE ARE QUITE GOOD" at me. There are obviously others but whenever I see "who's super strong in Inj2" these are the first images that come to mind.

 

[RNLDRGN]

@RNLDRGN oh shit, you're the guy I added. Didn't realize you were on TYM.

Anyhow, so far I feel like all the characters I've been gravitating towards have uphill battles in matchups if they aren't getting blown up to begin with. Specifically Captain Cold, Wonder Woman, and Poison Ivy.

Yessir! Good games my dude.

And yeah, I think of those characters Ivy is the best. I just got bopped pretty hard in a long set by a Cold online, but that might be an issue with Swamp more than how good Cold is. I think both of those characters are viable and Cold even more so after some slight tweaking later down the road.

 

[Cashual]

This.

Probably because people's only experience seeing Flash is Zyphox and HoneyBee who are far FAR above the average skillset of Flash players.

I hear what you're saying but even when considering "broad character groupings" we should be making rankings based on the highest possible caliber of play, not on what the average skill set of players is.

With that thinking, all high execution characters aren't very good due to most people not being able to play at the highest level. Which just doesn't make sense.

I don't know how good or not flash is by the way, just don't agree with your line of thinking. I will say that flash does however have some of the very best damage in game, mixups, a very useful trait, and unlike many characters who get zoned out, he can actually build meter from full screen by shifting through projectiles.

But again I'm unsure as to whether those tools in the abstract combine to make a strong character in practice in various matchups

 

[Cashual]

To start with his only safe string to cancel out of is 11, and F23. That's literally it, one is a very tight confirm and the other is like 20+ startup, and both are High. Not that it's even that relevant because he is the only character in the game who doesn't have a launcher to cancel strings into, but it also means he has fuck all to pressure you with. He has no safe launch at all, the two ways he does have to lunch are both is highly punishable in MULTIPLE places and completely unconfirmed able, he has to commit to the bar before seeing if he even gets the hit. And even just applying it is a gimmick. Wtf is air pressure? Free anti-airs, dash outs, or Mb b3s all day because he doesn't even have a priority air attack, and his jump is ridiculously floaty and his divekick like half the velocity of Bladams.

things he doesn't have: a safe mid, a cancellabel launcher, a safe launcher, a hitconfirmable string, a wake up, a projectile, any sort of plus on block pressure, a 50/50, high damage combos, basically anything all resembling one of the many tools a real character has

Things he does have: the floatiest jump in the game and the slowest walkspeed. And a trait that disappears on block and have limited practical use even if it didn't, and is impractical as hell to setup most of the time anyway unless you in the corner.

With trait + meter + corner in dreamland, he can get what I get meterless with Flash off a hitconfirmable +6 pressure string. Where's the payoff?

he doesn't deal with zoning at all, maybe some of the crappier projectiles in the game but no real zoning. I WOULD say zoners are his hardest matchup since at least he can try playing spacing game with his normals against rushdown, but then again everything with range is punishably negative so even if you may not always get punished at range, one misread and they are in anyway and again, you don't have a wake up or anything even resembling counter pressure, so he just loses to everyone.

Basically if he does something it's either heavily unsafe or there is no reward:

Whoever you got at the bottom of the game - Brainiac is a tier below that if not two. He makes CSZ look legitimate. He is not even a real character lol he has to a joke on NRS behalf he fuckin sucks.

But he ppl will still lose to it and stay jumping into his D2 all day, so meh just like CSZ he'll stay Hercule tier

I agree with everything except the CSZ comparison. CSZ was far from terrible.

 

[EntropicByDesign]

I feel like Atrocitus isnt going to plummet any time soon.. Even when people start pushblocking his mix-up and pressure. I dont think he's that 'meh' a character without trait. So even if you manage to keep him off you with pushblock and eat up some trait, blood-nado is a dangerous thing and his metered damage without trait is still respectable. And you're burning your own resources to keep him off you.

Dont get me wrong, you're absolutely right that he wont be as insanely oppressive when people learn to PB him more, but he has the tools to work around it and stay dangerous.

Its def early, but I really feel like, unless some character breaking anti-tech comes out, that Atroc will stay among the strongest in the game, until/if if gets changed down the road.

Its why he's my main! lol.

 

[Cashual]

The lenght of those previous posts reminded me of a certain special somebody.
RIP Made of Metal aka Dr Innuendo

To be fair, each of those above essays was far more coherent and logical than the entirety of made of metal's posts combined. Between mfk30, primbloodghost or whatever the Kano "player", and MoM, this place was pretty comical.

 

[Juggs]

A+
Black Adam, Batman, Aquaman, Superman

A
Deadshot, Atrocitus, Darkseid, Harley

The rest are up in the air. I feel the above are correct though. Harley is arguable, and I know some will question Darkseid but he's low key gdlk.

 

[Scoot Magee]

I think Supergirl is better than people give her credit for. What is her main downfall outside of damage?

 

[Raynex]

Supergirl is a good character.

- You don't need damage to be a good character
- Her mobility is insane. Great airdash, great ground dash speed
- Her cross-up j.1 has a fantastic hitbox + she has an airdash. These two things aren't commonly found together.
- Her trait lasers are fast and you have many ways to angle them, and it always knocks down = free in
- She has an anti-zoning kit with her knock-down projectiles and full screen cross-up teleport
- Her D1 is a combo-able low. If you blow the meter on MB Breath afterwards, you get strong mix-up

She is great at what she does, she is by no means bad.

The grouping thing is great for discussion, but your opinion loses so much weight when you put a character as good as Joker in the bottom rungs. Are you kidding me with that?

 

[omooba]

Supergirl is a good character.

- You don't need damage to be a good character
- Her mobility is insane. Great airdash, great ground dash speed
- Her cross-up j.1 has a fantastic hitbox + she has an airdash. These two things aren't commonly found together.
- Her trait lasers are fast and you have many ways to angle them, and it always knocks down = free in
- She has an anti-zoning kit with her knock-down projectiles and full screen cross-up teleport
- Her D1 is a combo-able low. If you blow the meter on MB Breath afterwards, you get strong mix-up

She is great at what she does, she is by no means bad.

The grouping thing is great for discussion, but your opinion loses so much weight when you put a character as good as Joker in the bottom rungs. Are you kidding me with that?

do you play joker? cus i've seen no joker online and fromt he tools he has i don't think he's good either so if u do play him wanna give me some match up experience?

 

[Juggs]

I think Supergirl is better than people give her credit for. What is her main downfall outside of damage?

- Very hard to build meter. Her projectile is a trait and only builds a tiny bit of meter on hit/block.

- Her strings aren't great. Only true plus string is 112 that is +2 but it has a gap in it, starts high, and has virtually no range. Her best string, B12 while it has good range and is good in footsies and whiff punishing is -9 on block, even B123 which the 3 can't be special canceled, is -11 on block. Her B2, 1+3 is her only overhead, and it's -35 on block.

- She needs meter she hardly ever has to do mediocre damage. Even in the corner she does mediocre damage, since the float combos scale each time you float.

- Only way to make her strings safe is MB Ice Breath, which is -5. Regular Ice Breath is -20 while the extended version is -18. Although the extended version not every character can punish because of pushback, but most can.

- Her teleport is decent, but has 31 frames of startup, and is -24 on block. MB version is -25.

- Her restand string is -1, so kinda pointless to do. Only good in very specific situations.

- Her wakeup is also not horrible, but is -29 on block. Can't combo off of it unless your opponent is in the corner and you MB it. This isn't a big negative for her but worth noting.

Redeeming qualities:

- Air dash
- Good at counter zoning and anti zoning
- Decent mobility
- Great corner game
- D1 is a low and can be special canceled into full combo
- She has a 7f D2 and it has good prioritiy for anti airing. -17 on block tho, which isn't super relevant but again worth noting.
- Very fun to play despite her short comings.

Might be forgetting stuff. @A F0xy Grampa @CrimsonShadow @SaltShaker @x TeeJay o @DarksydeDash @Rip Torn @LaidbackOne @omooba @ILuvFightGames @Eldagrin

 

[Scoot Magee]

- Very hard to build meter. Her projectile is a trait and only builds a tiny bit of meter on hit/block.

- Her strings aren't great. Only true plus string is 112 that is +2 but it has a gap in it, starts high, and has virtually no range. Her best string, B12 while it has good range and is good in footsies and whiff punishing is -9 on block, even B123 which the 3 can't be special canceled, is -11 on block. Her B2, 1+3 is her only overhead, and it's -35 on block.

- She needs meter she hardly ever has to do mediocre damage. Even in the corner she does mediocre damage, since the float combos scale each time you float.

- Only way to make her strings safe is MB Ice Breath, which is -5. Regular Ice Breath is -20 while the extended version is -18. Although the extended version not every character can punish because of pushback, but most can.

- Her teleport is decent, but has 31 frames of startup, and is -24 on block. MB version is -25.

- Her restand string is -1, so kinda pointless to do. Only good in very specific situations.

- Her wakeup is also not horrible, but is -29 on block. Can't combo off of it unless your opponent is in the corner and you MB it. This isn't a big negative for her but worth noting.

Redeeming qualities:

- Air dash
- Good at counter zoning and anti zoning
- Decent mobility
- Great corner game
- D1 is a low and can be special canceled into full combo
- She has a 7f D2 and it has good prioritiy for anti airing. -17 on block tho, which isn't super relevant but again worth noting.
- Very fun to play despite her short comings.

Might be forgetting stuff. @A F0xy Grampa @CrimsonShadow @SaltShaker @x TeeJay o @DarksydeDash @Rip Torn @LaidbackOne @omooba @ILuvFightGames @Eldagrin

I would argue that her mobility is better than decent. That's about it though.

 

[Skylight1]

I feel like Cold is one of those characters who takes time for ppl to figure out what he can do at its fullest potential. After a month or two people might figure out how solid he can be with all that potential he has.

Give SonicFox some time and he'll show the world why we need to nerf Captain Cold.... :

 

[M.D.]

I came here to absolutely vaporize any clueless useless sorry excuse for a gorilla-in-a-vegetable-state-plays-better-than-them players that would have the AUDACITY to say Cold is top tier and upplay him because of the imbecilic bandwagon created by sonic bullshiting about playing Cold while he destroys everyone with bladam 80% crap.

Then I read all pages being satisfied that no sorry excuse for a human amoeba-brainlevel player said anything about it. Then I read the last.post ansndndmlnajhHmothefufkfmnenjbbpueceofshjfnfn dnjdkkfkcjjdbfndko

 

[Juggs]

I would argue that her mobility is better than decent. That's about it though.

Yeah, got to get in a subtle downplay when I can though. Without her mobility being as good as it is she would be unusable, at least for me.

 

[neveradestroyer]

Captain Cold is the incarnation of everything wrong with MK9 Sub Zero and day one Unbreakable. When I saw that slow ass ice pudde I thought. What an epic fail of a char!, And the time is giving me the reason, He's an incomplete char as He's now.