How they can turn mk1's image around and bring hype for their next gsme

[Vulgar]

I think pre-patch Deathstroke was top 1 in the format he existed in, and would continue to be top 1 even with Martian and Batgirl added to the roster. Guy had his zoning butchered and still ended up safely in the top 10 at the end of the games life.

On the topic of Injustice (kinda) I don't think zoning will ever be allowed to be strong again in a fighting game. Casuals just can't put up with it and tbh dealing with zoning in any kind of lag can be a nightmare, and with games being predominate played online now, I just don't see it ever being as strong as the old days. Not for long anyway, It'll always get patched and nerfed. We'll never again get a game as diverse as Injustice 1.

Man, as whacky and fucked up as Injustice was, it was also fun as hell.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

How would the Peacemaker part work? People wouldn't STHU about "nerf Peacemaker" 24/7 when he was top tier, but those tools that were nerfed is what he needs to be good again except maybe the recovery on torpedo. So how do you buff him without causing the same outrage that got him nerfed? Feels like he'll get an exorbitant amount of complaints by default for being a (if he was strong) zoner.

It is unfortunate but I feel like NRS sometimes creates no-win situations for themselves. Like with Deadshot having dominant zoning and having a launching 50/50 up close that sends you back to full screen, but they nerf his zoning instead of making his overhead a mid or something. So they completely killed him and as you say, if they buffed him, normies would shit a brick over Deadshot buffs.

It’s like a character comes out that feels like they were designed to be dominant, like vanilla Deadshot couldn’t be a simpler and easier character to use anywhere on the screen and he was very good at what he did. Like how do you end up with a character like that period if you don’t want him to be amazing, then cave immidiately and kill the “annoying” parts but keep what was actually egregious. Might as well have not even added him in the game in the first place.

 

[SaltShaker]

I think pre-patch Deathstroke was top 1 in the format he existed in, and would continue to be top 1 even with Martian and Batgirl added to the roster.

Woa woa woa let's not go that far lol. MMH was one of the most busted characters in not just NRS history, but modern FG history. Only characters in games better than this guy are banned one's or ultra super duper Tekken 4 Jin levels of busted. Dude went even with only a few characters, beat the others, and dominated the others haha. Only character comparable to this guy is MK9 Kabal.

 

[SaltShaker]

It is unfortunate but I feel like NRS sometimes creates no-win situations for themselves. Like with Deadshot having dominant zoning and having a launching 50/50 up close that sends you back to full screen, but they nerf his zoning instead of making his overhead a mid or something. So they completely killed him and as you say, if they buffed him, normies would shit a brick over Deadshot buffs.

It’s like a character comes out that feels like they were designed to be dominant, like vanilla Deadshot couldn’t be a simpler and easier character to use anywhere on the screen and he was very good at what he did. Like how do you end up with a character like that period if you don’t want him to be amazing, then cave immidiately and kill the “annoying” parts but keep what was actually egregious. Might as well have not even added him in the game in the first place.

Yep agreed, and the flip side of it is when they try to make the zoning character without those benefits they tend to be weak because the zoning isn't as dominant as it should. Quan Chi in MK1 is a pretty good example. He SHOULD be a glass cannon where his zoning is uber strong and can dominate a MU, but his up close is weak where if you get in Johnny Cage style you body him. But instead Cage will just get in and body him unless the Quan player is significantly outplaying him. I feel like Quan should have more frames/better frame traps on his zoning, faster zoning, etc rather than buffing his normals (that all have gaps lol) and making him stronger up close. But like the other guy was saying I think those days are dead.

Back to Inj, I think in Inj2 Dr. Fate was a great representation of a Top tier zoner that worked well in the meta. Someone like that I'd like to see in MK1. All the Havik players and such can remain strong and it's fine imo.

 

[LEGEND]

Woa woa woa let's not go that far lol. MMH was one of the most busted characters in not just NRS history, but modern FG history. Only characters in games better than this guy are banned one's or ultra super duper Tekken 4 Jin levels of busted. Dude went even with only a few characters, beat the others, and dominated the others haha. Only character comparable to this guy is MK9 Kabal.

I feel like any argument I make here would sound like MMH downplaying but. . .

Deathstroke's full screen presence is constant and forces people to take risks, MMH and Batgirl are not immune to this, in the same way that they go 5-5 (ish) with Sinestro despite their obvious anti-zoning tools and broken up close game. But Deathstroke has safe 50/50s at close that require no resources AND better zoning. I think that version of Deathstroke is closer to MK9 Kabal than MMH. I'm glad we never had to find out for sure.

 

[Eji1700]

Yep agreed, and the flip side of it is when they try to make the zoning character without those benefits they tend to be weak because the zoning isn't as dominant as it should. Quan Chi in MK1 is a pretty good example. He SHOULD be a glass cannon where his zoning is uber strong and can dominate a MU, but his up close is weak where if you get in Johnny Cage style you body him. But instead Cage will just get in and body him unless the Quan player is significantly outplaying him. I feel like Quan should have more frames/better frame traps on his zoning, faster zoning, etc rather than buffing his normals (that all have gaps lol) and making him stronger up close. But like the other guy was saying I think those days are dead.

Back to Inj, I think in Inj2 Dr. Fate was a great representation of a Top tier zoner that worked well in the meta. Someone like that I'd like to see in MK1. All the Havik players and such can remain strong and it's fine imo.

I'm still not sure they exactly want quan to be a zoner so much as a setup character. Hence one of his ideal states being portal on opponent into armored nonsense.

I'd argue katana is closer to really being a zoner and intended to be so, but their approach in general has been odd. It's like every injustice they shit the bed with some insane zoner and then over correct for the next mk.

It's extra weird that mk traditionally had some really unique zoning thanks to how projectiles worked.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Yep agreed, and the flip side of it is when they try to make the zoning character without those benefits they tend to be weak because the zoning isn't as dominant as it should. Quan Chi in MK1 is a pretty good example. He SHOULD be a glass cannon where his zoning is uber strong and can dominate a MU, but his up close is weak where if you get in Johnny Cage style you body him. But instead Cage will just get in and body him unless the Quan player is significantly outplaying him. I feel like Quan should have more frames/better frame traps on his zoning, faster zoning, etc rather than buffing his normals (that all have gaps lol) and making him stronger up close. But like the other guy was saying I think those days are dead.

Back to Inj, I think in Inj2 Dr. Fate was a great representation of a Top tier zoner that worked well in the meta. Someone like that I'd like to see in MK1. All the Havik players and such can remain strong and it's fine imo.

Agreed. It’s funny you mention Quan, because he along with Predator had “good” zoning in MKX but if it wasn’t for their offense they’d have been trash. Them having some good zoning tools was a cope that zoning wasn’t dead in that game, but if that was the crux of their character they’d be buns. Sub COULD sit in a life lead in MKX with the klone but he was good because of a looping 33/33/33 armor break in the corner that leads to 50% meterless damage. That’s a bit of a tangent but just kind of like Deadshot, it was all slapped together.

Funny to mention Fate as well, because he became just as hated as Deadshot following the nerfs. But Deadshot was mogging him pre patch, Deadshot vs Fate pre patch was probably the worst matchup in the game. So they kill Deadshot just to replace him with Fate. Which is why Deadshot was such a poorly designed character to begin with that was so obviously designed to be great, then killed. He was too simple in that he does two things extremely well, but if he loses one of them, he can’t cope like Deathstroke or Batman could.

 

[Marlow]

Back to Inj, I think in Inj2 Dr. Fate was a great representation of a Top tier zoner that worked well in the meta. Someone like that I'd like to see in MK1.

I feel the same way about Cyborg in Injustice 2, although more as a fundamental mid tier zoner.

 

[M2Dave]

How would the Peacemaker part work? People wouldn't STHU about "nerf Peacemaker" 24/7 when he was top tier, but those tools that were nerfed is what he needs to be good again except maybe the recovery on torpedo. So how do you buff him without causing the same outrage that got him nerfed? Feels like he'll get an exorbitant amount of complaints by default for being a (if he was strong) zoner.

Aside from buffing the hit advantage, I would not touch the torpedo. Kano knives to torpedo is the primary reason why Peacemaker was nerfed this severely.

I would explore reducing the cooldown of Eagly as well as the startup and recovery of the force field.

Eagly seems to have about four seconds of cooldown while the force field starts up in 61 frames, recovers in 60 frames, and lasts for two seconds. These numbers have to be facetious. LOL. You are much better off flawless blocking projectiles than activating the force field.

Once upon a time, these two special moves were over-tuned. Now they are under-tuned.

By the way, zoning is compatible with modern fighting games, but the zoning character has to do more than "pew pew", and there has to be some kind of execution/depth requirement.

I never bothered to learn Deadshot because I knew the first week of Injustice 2's release that he was eventually going to be nerfed down the toilet.

One of my favorite zoning characters of the modern fighting game era is Poison from Street Fighter 5, and NRS has done a better job with some of their zoning characters like Sektor and Shang Tsung in Mortal Kombat 1. I would like to see more original designs in future games.

 

[SaltShaker]

Aside from buffing the hit advantage, I would not touch the torpedo. Kano knives to torpedo is the primary reason why Peacemaker was nerfed this severely.

I would explore reducing the cooldown of Eagly as well as the startup and recovery of the force field.

Eagly seems to have about four seconds of cooldown while the force field starts up in 61 frames, recovers in 60 frames, and lasts for two seconds. These numbers have to be facetious. LOL. You are much better off flawless blocking projectiles than activating the force field.

Once upon a time, these two special moves were over-tuned. Now they are under-tuned.

By the way, zoning is compatible with modern fighting games, but the zoning character has to do more than "pew pew", and there has to be some kind of execution/depth requirement.

I never bothered to learn Deadshot because I knew the first week of Injustice 2's release that he was eventually going to be nerfed down the toilet.

One of my favorite zoning characters of the modern fighting game era is Poison from Street Fighter 5, and NRS has done a better job with some of their zoning characters like Sektor and Shang Tsung in Mortal Kombat 1. I would like to see more original designs in future games.

Yea that's what I meant, that Torpedo was probably the main stupid thing that I wouldn't buff. Looking at those numbers I didn't realize the forcefield was THAT bad now, sheesh. That's just, yea lol. Eagly cooldown makes sense too. I'm just wondering how an effective Peacemaker would go over with the crowd say if he was "Top 10" even without being Top 3 in a game that is so tailored towards offensive in-your-face pressure.

I remember us talking about Deadshot back then and I was surprised you weren't using him and this is exactly what you said LOL! I was super annoyed when he got nerfed to oblivion but you warned me haha.

Yea agree Poison was epic and very well designed. I've been trying out Guile in SF6 the last couple of weeks and rekindled the SF spark. This is pretty much exactly how I want to play a FG (elite zoner, high execution, elite buttons) and I'm mad I didn't try him when was using JP last year. I'd definitely like to see more characters like this be intentionally designed by NRS in future games.

 

[Subby Z]

@YagamiFire and really anyone else

Would you guys be interested in spitballing ideas for character direction for some of the characters after Armageddon.

I liked a lot of your ideas Yagami, but I think a good potential name could be Mortal Kombat: AD

as in after Blaze’s death. It could be a subsequent story of how Armageddon was prevented and plotlines for some of the cast going forward. We could do so in DM or possibly even here. I just think people throwing out ideas and then taking suggestions to refine those ideas could be a good idea.

 

[YagamiFire]

Would you guys be interested in spitballing ideas for character direction for some of the characters after Armageddon.

Potentially sure. Always fun.

 

[Subby Z]

Potentially sure. Always fun.

Cool. First let’s figure out a roster. I think we can safely cull a good amount of characters and figure out who most want to see back (a lot of the trilogy cast most likely with some good 3d cast thrown in.

I’m thinking for a good core cast (and this is honestly the cast I think should be in most mk games) we go with: Scorpion, Sub-Zero, Raiden, Kitana, Mileena, Liu Kang, Sonya, Johnny Cage, Jade, Noob Saibot, Shang Tsung, and Jax

Let’s maybe do a roster of 25 (not counting dlc that would be added obviously).

 

[Krasiox]

Reptile.