How they can turn mk1's image around and bring hype for their next gsme

[Juxtapose]

This has never worked once in the history of fighting game design.

"Making everyone OP" has never really worked.

In Killer Instinct, this worked very well, actually. Every character is "busted" by design, and every character's Instinct is designed to break the rules of the game in a different way. The game is considered very well balanced, though there are tiers.

It took a bit to get there, and the Roster was released over seasons and things did shift as time went on, but the final product is fantastic.

 

[Revy]

In Killer Instinct, this worked very well, actually. Every character is "busted" by design, and every character's Instinct is designed to break the rules of the game in a different way. The game is considered very well balanced, though there are tiers.

It took a bit to get there, and the Roster was released over seasons and things did shift as time went on, but the final product is fantastic.

It worked for Street Fighter Alpha 3 vanilla too to the point it's considered to be one of the best versions of the game & even though there were other versions where they removed all the infinites (most notably the crouch-cancel infinite) & added more characters but here's the thing is when it comes to busted fighting games: People will grow into the busted elements of them which ends up making everyone happy & both vanilla SFA3 & Killer Instinct Season 1 are good examples of that, when it came to Killer Instinct as everyone thought it was better when they had 8 characters & was at it's most broken, come Season 2 with the company change when they added Marvel vs Capcom elements to it & even more so with Season 3 & how it is currently.

I do agree with @CrimsonShadow when it came to MKX & it's early DLC, that was an NRS issue of not understanding fighting game mechanics: We saw a fuck-ton of Tanya (Kobu Jitsu) because NRS had zero business of adding rekkas as they didn't understand them, Tremor is just retarded & everyone who plays him is hard carried & he's piss-poor character design & the same can be said about Jason even to this very day, Predator is fine but Goro was also ridiculous. Then they made the exact same mistakes for Kombat Pack 2.

 

[Marlow]

Maybe it's just a testament to good design, but with KI the characters don't really feel busted to me, just more like stronger versions of SFIV characters. I think the combo breaker mechanic helps a lot with that though.

Maybe sometimes it's less about character balance and more about mechanics balance. You can have strong "busted" offense options for characters, but then you need to balance it with some strong defensive options.

 

[Juxtapose]

Maybe it's just a testament to good design, but with KI the characters don't really feel busted to me, just more like stronger versions of SFIV characters. I think the combo breaker mechanic helps a lot with that though.

Maybe sometimes it's less about character balance and more about mechanics balance. You can have strong "busted" offense options for characters, but then you need to balance it with some strong defensive options.

That's a good way of putting it. They are "busted" in that game, but it's a solid example of "if everyone is busted, no one is."

There are, as I mentioned, still Tiers though. Sadira is bottom tier and does have to work harder then most of the cast, but her Instinct is considered one of if not the best in the game.

 

[Eji1700]

In Killer Instinct, this worked very well, actually. Every character is "busted" by design, and every character's Instinct is designed to break the rules of the game in a different way. The game is considered very well balanced, though there are tiers.

It took a bit to get there, and the Roster was released over seasons and things did shift as time went on, but the final product is fantastic.

While i hate the "just make everyone" broken framing, since it leads to these pointless arguments, I do think there's more than just killer instinct, and that Crim's response totally misses the point most people are (poorly) conveying with that argument.

Some of the longest lasting and best remembered fighting games are ST, 3s, and MvC2.

All 3 games have absolutely dominate top tiers, but that doesn't matter as much as in other games. Why? Because even if you're playing gief/remy/jugg there's something fun/wacky/crazy to do. Many of the characters have actual depth, and even if your character is garbage tier, you can usually make results happen if you want to put in the work, except vs the very best. One of the most recent EVO moments is some out of this world play by a fucking Hugo main.

MvC2 is especially interesting to look at, because while half the cast is objectively unplayble at any serious level, it still has a larger viable roster than most games have characters. Yes your team will likely have at least one of the god tiers, but if you aren't looking to top 8, you can make a showing with spiral/doom/command or whatever off brand nonsense makes you happy.

And that's what the "make them all broken" framework is trying to get at. I think DBFZ is a great example of missing the point because I'd say it's the exact opposite problem. You literally have characters who's entire kit (muck like mk9) just does not fucking function. It's as if someone said "ok this will be our trap gimmick character" and all development stopped there. That's not what anyone is arguing for.

What people want are clear and unique characters who can do fun things

KI is great partly because the core systems do a wonderful job at allowing this. Yes i'll be bored watching yet another killgore vs Aria matchup, but just about everything else is super hype and all over the map. Raam and Aganos are probably THE best large body characters ever made, Cinder is a hilarious setup/combo expression guy, and Glacious/Kan are some of the best examples of zoners every created. Everyone in that game has, from the ground up, super unique kits and gimmicks even without instinct.

And it all works up until the top of the pyramid. You will actually play against these characters in matchmaking. Not 35 sessions of johnny/lao doing the same setups. It's why MK1 has tried (and to some extent succeeded) at getting the fuck away from that.

 

[Marlow]

That's a good way of putting it. They are "busted" in that game, but it's a solid example of "if everyone is busted, no one is."

There are, as I mentioned, still Tiers though. Sadira is bottom tier and does have to work harder then most of the cast, but her Instinct is considered one of if not the best in the game.

Yes. But in that case I guess to me it's more about the mechanics around the characters, which allow them to be busted but still fun, that's the big difference.

I also wonder how much it would change if the game actually got super popular and competitive with bigger prize pools. You might see more pro's shifting to higher tiers and then more balance complaints. KI has a solid community, but most play it as a passion game because it's the only KI they have, so it's ok to play low tier characters. If they come out with an actual new KI game I wonder how it might change.

I wonder the same for VF6. VF5 has tiers, but most of the time it doesn't matter and people don't complain too much, but when VF5 came out it was a different era.

 

[SaltShaker]

Maybe it's just a testament to good design, but with KI the characters don't really feel busted to me, just more like stronger versions of SFIV characters. I think the combo breaker mechanic helps a lot with that though.

Maybe sometimes it's less about character balance and more about mechanics balance. You can have strong "busted" offense options for characters, but then you need to balance it with some strong defensive options.

Maybe sometimes it's less about character balance and more about mechanics balance.

This is one of the statements I disagree with the most in these conversations. Too many times when games are balanced around the system rather than the characters we end up with games where most of the characters play the same. You're playing the system. When balanced around characters the gameplay is much more diversified.

 

[Marlow]

Some of the longest lasting and best remembered fighting games are ST, 3s, and MvC2.

If games were released in that kind of state today they'd get slaughtered by online opinions.

 

[Marlow]

This is one of the statements I disagree with the most in these conversations. Too many times when games are balanced around the system rather than the characters we end up with games where most of the characters play the same. You're playing the system. When balanced around characters the gameplay is much more diversified.

Good point. I'm not trying to say that the mechanics should over-shadow character diversity, just that if you're going to give characters strong offense and a lot of OP stuff, then you should probably have some kind of strong mechanic, whether character or system, to offset that. For example, Breaker in MKX. Or giving something like Push Block in MK1 could be nice.

 

[SaltShaker]

Good point. I'm not trying to say that the mechanics should over-shadow character diversity, just that if you're going to give characters strong offense and a lot of OP stuff, then you should probably have some kind of strong mechanic, whether character or system, to offset that. For example, Breaker in MKX. Or giving something like Push Block in MK1 could be nice.

Oh yea that I agree with. Like a push block would be a GOAT addition to MK1, not sure why they're so against it. Or like having burst in GGST. Things like that are definitely needed.

 

[Eji1700]

Yes. But in that case I guess to me it's more about the mechanics around the characters, which allow them to be busted but still fun, that's the big difference.

I also wonder how much it would change if the game actually got super popular and competitive with bigger prize pools. You might see more pro's shifting to higher tiers and then more balance complaints. KI has a solid community, but most play it as a passion game because it's the only KI they have, so it's ok to play low tier characters. If they come out with an actual new KI game I wonder how it might change.

I wonder the same for VF6. VF5 has tiers, but most of the time it doesn't matter and people don't complain too much, but when VF5 came out it was a different era.

VF and SSVSpecial were the other examples I was going to include but I didn't want to dilute the conversation too much. VF is, again, an example of every character having a shitload of depth. If you're willing to put in the time and adapt, you have options. Yes the tier list is real, but you're not feeling it right out of the gate (if you're the kind of person who wants to actually learn)

This is one of the statements I disagree with the most in these conversations. Too many times when games are balanced around the system rather than the characters we end up with games where most of the characters play the same. You're playing the system. When balanced around characters the gameplay is much more diversified.

I think this is again many people meaning the same thing but not quite having a good way to discuss it. Powerful core mechanics are often vital to keeping games in line. GG has a shitload of great core mechanics that allows you to make nonsense characters. KI was much the same. 3s/MvC2/ST are much less so, but there's also a shitload of games from those era's that didn't accidentally or intentionally thread the needle and instead wound up trash.

If games were released in that kind of state today they'd get slaughtered by online opinions.

Eh, I somewhat doubt that. And it's worth remembering that those games ARE patch 9.x or whatever for each of their series. Since you couldn't just push patches to all the games, you just released a new version. I think 3s is the "least" iterated version of the group, but they're all learning from previous fuckups.

 

[ImpostorOak]

Yall Warner Brothers is okay with letting SESAME STREET die.

Mortal Kombat is gonna be a live service casual ass party game best case scenario without major changes at WBD.

This is dark times.

 

[Liquid Swordsman]

MK1 might be a lost cause at this point. I think in order for their next game to improve, western gaming needs a turning point and people just have to let their wallets do the talking.

 

[just_2swift]

NRS needs to Remove themselves from ultra realistic realism design of their games. This takes away from the creativity and imagination.

 

[M2Dave]

If games were released in that kind of state today they'd get slaughtered by online opinions.

Correct.

3s, MvC2, and ST were released at a different time for a different audience. The same holds true for other classics like Smash Melee, Tekken Tag Tournament 1, and UMK:3.

In the contemporary era of social media, streaming, and esports, these old fighting games would probably not last for very long, not even among the competitive players. According to the developers themselves such Harada and Nara, Tekken Tag Tournament 1 and MvC2, respectively, had a low budget and were never anticipated to be played seriously.

In my humble opinion, some content creators and critics, including my good friend Tom Brady, are overanalyzing Mortal Kombat 1's mixed reception and arriving to wrong or biased conclusions.

The release version of Mortal Kombat 1 was objectively bad for a multitude of reasons, but I am not entirely convinced that the low power levels were one of them. Casual gamers cannot distinguish low power levels from high power levels. Neither can players who are new to the competitive scene as they typically lack the historic frame of reference.

Besides, if you pay attention to the meta in modern fighting games, there is a preference for aggression over turtling, offense over defense, "active" gameplay over "inactive" gameplay, rush down over zoning, etc. Mortal Kombat 1 is certainly no exception, and its meta, in fact, could arguably be the worst culprit. Nobody is going to be persuade me that defense/turtling/zoning is even remotely in the same realm as something like Havik's reset and Kenshi's Sento sandwich.

 

[John Grizzly]

I'm never going on your podcast, no matter how much you want me to.

Nice try, tho.

Don't worry. No one knows who you are or cares, so you're good! No one knows me either, for the record.

You know Brady and Dave would cook you on their show if you actually did have a conversation with them.

 

[Vulgar]

Don't worry. No one knows who you are or cares, so you're good! No one knows me either, for the record.

You know Brady and Dave would cook you on their show if you actually did have a conversation with them.

More accurately, it would be two hours of me arguing with the dumbest talking points known to man, coupled with a lot of interruption and talking over each other, and nothing of value would be accomplished.

To me, the fact that they want to move the discussion to a platform where they have the advantage shows me how thoroughly I've "cooked" them here.

Aw shit, was I just a bully right there?

@Felipe_Gewehr Did I just do a bully?

 

[Revy]

Gonna have to disagree with you here. No one was happy with the, "obnoxious and insufferable" power of on release Deadshot or Deathstroke or MKX on release Tanya/Alien, or many other vanilla versions of NRS characters that were out of pocket strong.

I think releasing a balanced game with interesting character designs is more important than giving everyone looping 50/50s or 0 recovery fire balls or what have you.

Deathstroke wasn't even that bad & even then, he'd still lose to MMH, Superman, Doomsday, Aquaman & Batgirl anyways. Release Deadshot is what the game later changed into at the end anyways...

Tanya & Alien was the result of NRS not staying in their fucking lane, don't introduce Japanese fighting game mechanics if you don't know how to do it properly, if you don't know how rekkas are supposed to work don't put them in the game but they made the same mistake TWICE! That really shows how fucking awful their QA department was/is & their complete lack of play-testing. Their lack of play-testing shows with every patch & every new character during MKX.

But the thing is @Tom Brady isn't wrong, "Release it with obnoxious and insufferable power. Many possibilities are possible like this, if things are too strong you can always tone them down" & the opposite.

 

[Vulgar]

Deathstroke wasn't even that bad & even then, he'd still lose to MMH, Superman, Doomsday, Aquaman & Batgirl anyways. Release Deadshot is what the game later changed into at the end anyways...

Tanya & Alien was the result of NRS not staying in their fucking lane, don't introduce Japanese fighting game mechanics if you don't know how to do it properly, if you don't know how rekkas are supposed to work don't put them in the game but they made the same mistake TWICE! That really shows how fucking awful their QA department was/is & their complete lack of play-testing. Their lack of play-testing shows with every patch & every new character during MKX.

But the thing is @Tom Brady isn't wrong, "Release it with obnoxious and insufferable power. Many possibilities are possible like this, if things are too strong you can always tone them down" & the opposite.

I don't think you understand how play-testing and QA even work. Then again, you believe in the Black Rock conspiracy and DEI, so your brain is soup as is.

I'm talking about Deathstroke on release. Long before MMH and Batgirl even came out.

If they did what Tom is suggesting, no one would be happy and then they'd complain about nerfs.

No one wants a game full of Injustice 1 Pre-Nerf Scorpion-style gameplay.

Tom is just wrong. Many such cases.

 

[Revy]

I don't think you understand how play-testing and QA even work. Then again, you believe in the Black Rock conspiracy and DEI, so your brain is soup as is.

I'm talking about Deathstroke on release. Long before MMH and Batgirl even came out.

If they did what Tom is suggesting, no one would be happy and then they'd complain about nerfs.

No one wants a game full of Injustice 1 Pre-Nerf Scorpion-style gameplay.

Tom is just wrong. Many such cases.

And you can't read or coperhend words or at least not able to retain the information...

I understand what you're trying to say about Deathstroke as I said even then which means if he wasn't nerfed, he'd still lose to those characters if he stayed the same regardless, he was my fucking main from Day 1 to the day I told @Kinetic Demise I was done with Injustice in 2014 & sticking with MK9 & KI. People will complain about nerfs regardless but that doesn't mean they're right. As it has worked in multiple franchises for literally decades for multiple games as previously mentioned: Killer Instinct Season 1 is a great example of this as literally all 8 characters were broken in their own way with Sadira being Top 1. Then each season they introduce new characters & change the way the game is played as to make it consise, the different between Season 1 & 2 is character balance & pace of play then come Season 3 changed everything from system changes, opened up combo posibilities, increased the pace, unbreakable combos were removed, tons of character changes along with new tools & so on. The game went through 2 different developers, constant changes for a decade. This proves that @Tom Brady is right, it is plausable. @Tom Brady is wrong about a lot of things but this isn't one of them.

NRS has had literally decades of playtesting & QA issues since they were still Midway...
As I previously mentioned - in MKX, they didn't understand rekkas, nerfed KJ Tanya to the ground rather than fixing her just to make the same exact mistake again with Tarkatan Alien, rather than fix their mistake they they nerfed Alien to the ground too. In MK9 they were constantly trying to nerf Cyrax just for each nerf to make him even better then they'd over nerf characters like Kano & a list of bugs & glitches. PRE-NERF SCORPION! Again - lack of playtesting. They took MK9 Scorpion a character that was mid-tier but could kill if he guessed right three times & gave him more options to get a vortex along with jump-ins with massive hitboxes & an ambigous Ji1 then gave him a broken trait that stuns AND restands along with having his signature teleport but make him slow & more meter dependant, what could go wrong? CEO 2013 had 4 Scorpion players who all played other characters besides Scorpion & yet KDZ still won with Superman, even though people were booing. Also rather than simply nerfing him they straight up murdered him to the bottom tier to the point there was only 1 Scorpion player left on Xbox afterwards till the end of the game (Bugman).

Also Blackrock & Vanguard holdings & DEI is literally fact as DEI translates into ESG, they hire companies like Sweet Baby Inc. to add more DEI crap into their games as there's a score for each part of E-S-G for every publically traded company with games. Companies that are against DEI like Larian, Shift Up, Rebel Wolves, Focus Enterainment & Arrowhead Game Studios are independant when companies like Warner Bros. Discovery that have actively employed Sweet Baby Inc: Gotham Knights & Suicide Squad: KTJL filled into the brim with DEI slop led to mass layoffs & the same with EA as Dead Space 2023 lead to the sequel getting cancelled & the studio turned into a support studio for Battlefield, Immortals of Aveum's studio closed, Tales of Kenzera: Zau had SBI involvement then their studio closed & now Dragon Age: Veilguard will fail to make expectations also look at Concord: Firewalk Studios was closed, game was shutdown & it was the biggest DEI slop going. It's a never ending cycle & will continue until the ESG money runs out or the activists are kicked out of the industry.

 

[Vulgar]

And you can't read or coperhend words or at least not able to retain the information...

I understand what you're trying to say about Deathstroke as I said even then which means if he wasn't nerfed, he'd still lose to those characters if he stayed the same regardless, he was my fucking main from Day 1 to the day I told @Kinetic Demise I was done with Injustice in 2014 & sticking with MK9 & KI. People will complain about nerfs regardless but that doesn't mean they're right. As it has worked in multiple franchises for literally decades for multiple games as previously mentioned: Killer Instinct Season 1 is a great example of this as literally all 8 characters were broken in their own way with Sadira being Top 1. Then each season they introduce new characters & change the way the game is played as to make it consise, the different between Season 1 & 2 is character balance & pace of play then come Season 3 changed everything from system changes, opened up combo posibilities, increased the pace, unbreakable combos were removed, tons of character changes along with new tools & so on. The game went through 2 different developers, constant changes for a decade. This proves that @Tom Brady is right, it is plausable. @Tom Brady is wrong about a lot of things but this isn't one of them.

NRS has had literally decades of playtesting & QA issues since they were still Midway...
As I previously mentioned - in MKX, they didn't understand rekkas, nerfed KJ Tanya to the ground rather than fixing her just to make the same exact mistake again with Tarkatan Alien, rather than fix their mistake they they nerfed Alien to the ground too. In MK9 they were constantly trying to nerf Cyrax just for each nerf to make him even better then they'd over nerf characters like Kano & a list of bugs & glitches. PRE-NERF SCORPION! Again - lack of playtesting. They took MK9 Scorpion a character that was mid-tier but could kill if he guessed right three times & gave him more options to get a vortex along with jump-ins with massive hitboxes & an ambigous Ji1 then gave him a broken trait that stuns AND restands along with having his signature teleport but make him slow & more meter dependant, what could go wrong? CEO 2013 had 4 Scorpion players who all played other characters besides Scorpion & yet KDZ still won with Superman, even though people were booing. Also rather than simply nerfing him they straight up murdered him to the bottom tier to the point there was only 1 Scorpion player left on Xbox afterwards till the end of the game (Bugman).

Also Blackrock & Vanguard holdings & DEI is literally fact as DEI translates into ESG, they hire companies like Sweet Baby Inc. to add more DEI crap into their games as there's a score for each part of E-S-G for every publically traded company with games. Companies that are against DEI like Larian, Shift Up, Rebel Wolves, Focus Enterainment & Arrowhead Game Studios are independant when companies like Warner Bros. Discovery that have actively employed Sweet Baby Inc: Gotham Knights & Suicide Squad: KTJL filled into the brim with DEI slop led to mass layoffs & the same with EA as Dead Space 2023 lead to the sequel getting cancelled & the studio turned into a support studio for Battlefield, Immortals of Aveum's studio closed, Tales of Kenzera: Zau had SBI involvement then their studio closed & now Dragon Age: Veilguard will fail to make expectations also look at Concord: Firewalk Studios was closed, game was shutdown & it was the biggest DEI slop going. It's a never ending cycle & will continue until the ESG money runs out or the activists are kicked out of the industry.

I'm gonna ignore that last bit at the bottom because it's all conspiratorial groyper nonsense. I can tell what reddit forums and streamers you get your talking points from.

And again, QA isn't just for competitive balance. In fact, comp players are the smallest percentage of people that buy and play these games. So no, the games were QA'd, it's just that the work done there is more involved than testing comp balance.

The fact that you think vanilla Deathstroke was fine is very telling. LMAO!

Additionally, whether or not they "understood" Rekka characters is irrelevant to my point. No one enjoyed fighting against the release versions of those characters. Same for Injustice Scorpion.

"Breaks the rules of the game," were the words Tom himself used.

The "power levels" of MK1 are fine. You have 50/50 characters, characters that can set up HTBs, pressure characters, looping vortex characters, pretty much everything we've had in past games.

Nitara touches you twice and kills you.

Ghostface vortexes you to death and can make his 50/50s safe.

Havik can ToD with three bars.

Kenshi can lock you down completely with inescapable pressure.

Ermac takes 50% off any hit.

What more do you want?

Point is, if we were to follow the, "make everyone broke" philosophy to it's natural conclusion, then we'd actually get "kusoge" games like the Fist of the North Star fighter game which was full of infinites or vanilla MvC3 which even the best players complained about.

It's better, I think, to try and make a game as balanced as possible while having interesting character designs. A thing that NRS has consistently delivered on.

 

[M2Dave]

Did someone mention vanilla Deathstroke and low gunshots?

The fact that you think vanilla Deathstroke was fine is very telling. LMAO!

Being in the same game as pre-patch Aquaman, Black Adam, and Superman, he was fine as a top tier character.

Was he fine, to use your words, as a "balanced and interesting character design"? Obviously not.

NRS eventually added Batgirl and Martian Manhunter, who ended up being some of the strongest characters ever in Injustice 1.

Injustice 1 was also a fighting game in which players used to pick Metropolis Rooftop and toss unblockable 20% drones that had the hitbox of a real-life tank.

The game never really had any balance standards anyway, so Deathstroke's nerfs were mostly superfluous.

I like this video from Sajam...

What more do you want?

Better zoning and defensive characters.

Characters like Peacemaker and Sub Zero should receive buffs.

 

[Vulgar]

Did someone mention vanilla Deathstroke and low gunshots?



Being in the same game as pre-patch Aquaman, Black Adam, and Superman, he was fine as a top tier character.

Was he fine, to use your words, as a "balanced and interesting character design"? Obviously not.

NRS eventually added Batgirl and Martian Manhunter, who ended up being some of the strongest characters ever in Injustice 1.

Injustice 1 was also a fighting game in which players used to pick Metropolis Rooftop and toss unblockable 20% drones that had the hitbox of a real-life tank.

The game never really had any balance standards anyway, so Deathstroke's nerfs were mostly superfluous.

I like this video from Sajam...

Better zoning and defensive characters.

Characters like Peacemaker and Sub Zero should receive buffs.

I don't think there is anyone here that would seriously defend the balance of Injustice 1. Which was kind of my point.

 

[SaltShaker]

Better zoning and defensive characters.

Characters like Peacemaker and Sub Zero should receive buffs.

How would the Peacemaker part work? People wouldn't STHU about "nerf Peacemaker" 24/7 when he was top tier, but those tools that were nerfed is what he needs to be good again except maybe the recovery on torpedo. So how do you buff him without causing the same outrage that got him nerfed? Feels like he'll get an exorbitant amount of complaints by default for being a (if he was strong) zoner.

 

[LEGEND]

I think pre-patch Deathstroke was top 1 in the format he existed in, and would continue to be top 1 even with Martian and Batgirl added to the roster. Guy had his zoning butchered and still ended up safely in the top 10 at the end of the games life.

On the topic of Injustice (kinda) I don't think zoning will ever be allowed to be strong again in a fighting game. Casuals just can't put up with it and tbh dealing with zoning in any kind of lag can be a nightmare, and with games being predominate played online now, I just don't see it ever being as strong as the old days. Not for long anyway, It'll always get patched and nerfed. We'll never again get a game as diverse as Injustice 1.