Hawkgirl Buff Suggestions

[RunwayMafia]

She does not need buffs. PERIOD. I main her...I know. That is all.

 

[thecure13]

Buff suggestion- delete her. Shes taking up space.

I will spit on your tomb!

 

[TAS_DASH]

Jeez. I knew it was gonna end up like this.

Bane's uppercut has limited range. Yes, it can hit her in flight. When he's close enough. How is that gonna happen though? Is he gonna dash through a bunch of diagonal MTs? Why on earth would HG fly in that range and not anticipate the ONLY MOVE HE CAN STOP HER FLIGHT WITH?!

Dash, unless youre gonna be productive, just go somewhere. This is a "give HG buffs thread". Not a "hey look at me! I think I know the matchup and You don't so I get to talk down to everybody! Thread".

You obviously didn't read how to counter flight in general. Jeez! I knew it was going to end up like this. I started the thread. Someone mentioned the Bane match up was in her favor... I countered how Bane could easily turn the match up into his favor. How did I down talk him? I told him he doesn't know Bane's 50/50 mid screen anti wake up game, and he had no clue what I was talking about. Is that down talking or is it just that the truth was too much for him to accept. I even told him at first if he learned it... it would level up his game completely, which is true. So, you're basically saying I can't disagree or present things that maybe he was unaware of. He disagreed and stated his piece and so did I. How did I down talk him?

Others asked em to make this and said maybe people who care for her to have buffs will come instead of all of you who don't see it. I've got a better question, If it doesn't pertain to you, why are you here? You said she's fine. This is about buffs. It's obvious not everyone agrees with your circle. Keep that in mind

 

[TAS_DASH]

The problem with a lot of the arguments against Hawkgirl is they are based on re-active counters, which is basically assuming the Hawkgirl is going to play in a specific offensive way and you are always going to predict exactly what she is going to do first. And that she is not going to try the same tricks on you. Also keep in mind HG is not played a lot.

The match-up with BA is even only because of BA's better combo damage mid-screen. He has lot's of counters but few offensive options in that MU. Also his counters are not infallible, I find by simply varying your timing you can actually counter a lot of his counters.

Bane: 3 is your best friend, HG has several ways to break his armor they are just not normal tech for most match-ups so HG's often forget what they can do against Bane (since that is an equally rare match-up)

Also in any match-up, the timing is insane, but WE can dodge any move if the timing is spot on (it nullifies the move rather then physically evading it)

I truly would honestly like your input. What do you think she can do to stop Bane's his mid screen armored 50/50 anti wake up game? Hawkgirl has no multi hit or escaping wake up to deal with this. WE nor MC can escape it. I'm trying to find a more viable option than guessing jump, Wake up, or block low. You have to guess correctly with all of these possiblities. For characters like her it's a 33% chance of guessing right. That's hard to escape. It has to be respected by her. I'm not saying Bane is the best anti HG, but I think a Bane who knows HG is at advantage, so maybe destroy was the wrong word to use. Characters likes supes, arrow, shazam, ares, dark raven, Flash, Grundy, DS, NW, Batgirl can escape it. Others can reduce it to 50/50.

She's not alone in this 33% game, but:
lartern's machine gun help him keep armored bane at bay.
Batman's batarangs and bats keep armored Bane at Bay
Cyborg's escape and superior zoning helps keep armored Bane at bay.
Luthor has gadgets to neutralize his armor (probe, mines)
Sinestro with trait
Joker has close teeth
BA has close bomb

These are meterless

some of the other characters don't have anything. I like your idea of using 3. Maybe if the 2 hits came out a couple of frames closer to each other, it could interrupt his armor more times than not or at least evenly. I tried in practice and it's hard to interrupt his armor. Not impossible but a lot harder to take this risk than it it is for him to use armor. Although this won't help her counter his wake up. It's a meterless solution to Bane that you have to make a read on. If you time wrong, you get punished and punished hard. It won't tilt the match-up, as I believe Bane should have solid and positive match ups too.

 

[regulas]

I truly would honestly like your input. What do you think she can do to stop Bane's his mid screen armored 50/50 anti wake up game? Hawkgirl has no multi hit or escaping wake up to deal with this. WE nor MC can escape it. I'm trying to find a more viable option than guessing jump, Wake up, or block low. You have to guess correctly with all of these possiblities. For characters like her it's a 33% chance of guessing right. That's hard to escape. It has to be respected by her. I'm not saying Bane is the best anti HG, but I think a Bane who knows HG is at advantage, so maybe destroy was the wrong word to use. Characters likes supes, arrow, shazam, ares, dark raven, Flash, Grundy, DS, NW, Batgirl can escape it. Others can reduce it to 50/50.

She's not alone in this 33% game, but:
lartern's machine gun help him keep armored bane at bay.
Batman's batarangs and bats keep armored Bane at Bay
Cyborg's escape and superior zoning helps keep armored Bane at bay.
Luthor has gadgets to neutralize his armor (probe, mines)
Sinestro with trait
Joker has close teeth
BA has close bomb

These are meterless

some of the other characters don't have anything. I like your idea of using 3. Maybe if the 2 hits came out a couple of frames closer to each other, it could interrupt his armor more times than not or at least evenly. I tried in practice and it's hard to interrupt his armor. Not impossible but a lot harder to take this risk than it it is for him to use armor. Although this won't help her counter his wake up. It's a meterless solution to Bane that you have to make a read on. If you time wrong, you get punished and punished hard. It won't tilt the match-up, as I believe Bane should have solid and positive match ups too.

Well I will admit a big part of my game against Bane is simply avoiding the knockdown, since his OKI is his gameplan, and his need to get in is the main reason he is believed erroneously to be low tier. A key move I find against Bane is WE3, because if he is armoured up it will cause you to move through him entirely, making most of his moves wiff and potentially either crossing him up or letting you just evade him. As a "4" frame (sort of but not quite) move it may be viable as a wake-up in place of jumping, so you only have to block and WE3? But I haven't tested it a lot so not as confident saying that.


For non-wakeup there is F13 (or maybe F11, or the slower b13) which may be a bit faster for that second hit though I would want to test that. Also as a frame trap there is B23 (if he tries to armour in the large looking gap he will eat a double-hit). There is also J1~D3, depending on the timing he may just AA, but it is two near instantaneous hits.


I'm going to go into the Lab tonight and check out a few things.

 

[TAS_DASH]

I play one of Houston's finest SF4 players who uses Zangief and picked up Bane. He taught me a lot about Bane. Through our match experience and dialogue, he knows how to stop WE3 w/ armored moves. He's working on a strat guide and he may want to hold on to his tech for now, so I can't quite reveal how. I worry about f1 bc of the range. Bane's footsie distance is about the same distance as HG's d1. Bane players don't need to hug until wake up. B2 just has slow start up. Bane's armored uppercut is like a shoryuken. It's really hard to interrupt, so I'll test the j1, d3. I appreciate the feedback and, I'll test all of these out later myself as well. I understand things have to be mixed up to create confusion, but when a good Bane is armored and in footsie range... it's hard for HG. Let me know what you find. Maybe then there can be a stronger argument for the 2 hits of 3 to hit faster. I don't mean have faster start up, just hit closer to each other. The recovery is forty frames, so wrong guesses will be get punished.

 

[TAS_DASH]

Very good suggestions.

One of Hawkgirl's biggest weaknesses is the inability to create mix ups at mid range. Your suggestions would resolve this problem.

Other suggestions.

- aerial dash
- full screen diagonal aerial mace toss with reduced block stun and damage

I would like your feedback m2dave. I see your point at making flight Mace throw full screen as a better option than ground mace throw being mid. Watching some supes match ups in casuals vs certain characters the chip adds up and forces them to come to you. This will also negate flight as a gimmick and make it respected more. Right now you can back dash her flight and spam whiff specials to match her meter building. I would say try this before an aerial dash.

 

[TrulyAmiracle]

-slighty faster start-up on ground mace toss, as it is alot of characters can just stuff it, duck it on reaction or easily jump over it.
-give her some sort of fullscreen option, either:
*have a diagonal air mace toss that goes fullscreen (make it worse than the other 2 frame-wise if needed)
*Make ground mace toss a true mid (it says its a mid but alot of characters can duck it), it'll at least make it worth using.
-It shouldnt be this unsafe for Hawkgirl to try to land after flight, especially if she's willingly cancelling as opposed to flight duration ending. so either less whiff recovery on air d3, quicker unfly or make it so that she can throw out a normal/special on the way down from unfly.
-Slightly more range on WE2 to help her midscreen mixups, at least so that d1 xx WE2 would connect from a range thats not your tongue in their mouth close..
-Fix the hitboxes on some of her moves like b2 or 32. They're mids, they shouldnt be whiffing on crouching characters.
-Adjust WE1, be it a bigger hitbox, or a better angle, or just make it a straight air mace toss. Just give it a use lol.
-Quicker start-up or a tad more range on some of her normals would be nice. she has a mace FFS, her mace normals should outrange most characters coz of the mace's extra reach but all other characters have better range on their punches and her kicks have more range than the mace normals =__=


I'm not saying she needs all these or any of them really, I think Hawky to an extent is fine as she is, but it would be nice to have some of those buffs/fixes as they'll make some of the harder matchups much more bearable.

 

[M2Dave]

I would like your feedback m2dave. I see your point at making flight Mace throw full screen as a better option than ground mace throw being mid. Watching some supes match ups in casuals vs certain characters the chip adds up and forces them to come to you. This will also negate flight as a gimmick and make it respected more. Right now you can back dash her flight and spam whiff specials to match her meter building. I would say try this before an aerial dash.

A full screen diagonal mace toss (with less block stun and damage) would be ideal for obvious reasons albeit unlikely.

A mid-hitting grounded mace toss would be more likely. Unless you meter burn, this projectile is useless for all purposes. The recovery is laughably long.

 

[MashPotatoTower]

What's this based on? We don't even have her frame data. In the game it's all wrong

 

[DRS Shakugan]

The only buff I feel she needs is that ground mace throw me a mid so you can not duck it.

 

[MKF30]

She has good mix ups up close and a great zoning game but one buff id do is make her flight easier to cancel and faster.

@ Mashpotatoetower, no it's not. The in game frame data is only off on a few moves, overall though it's accurate.

 

[regulas]

I play one of Houston's finest SF4 players who uses Zangief and picked up Bane. He taught me a lot about Bane. Through our match experience and dialogue, he knows how to stop WE3 w/ armored moves. He's working on a strat guide and he may want to hold on to his tech for now, so I can't quite reveal how. I worry about f1 bc of the range. Bane's footsie distance is about the same distance as HG's d1. Bane players don't need to hug until wake up. B2 just has slow start up. Bane's armored uppercut is like a shoryuken. It's really hard to interrupt, so I'll test the j1, d3. I appreciate the feedback and, I'll test all of these out later myself as well. I understand things have to be mixed up to create confusion, but when a good Bane is armored and in footsie range... it's hard for HG. Let me know what you find. Maybe then there can be a stronger argument for the 2 hits of 3 to hit faster. I don't mean have faster start up, just hit closer to each other. The recovery is forty frames, so wrong guesses will be get punished.

Ok so what I've seen so far after some quick checks,

WE can replace jump but you still have the three options ( : P). I would prefer to either evade the low strikes or evade the throw as those are the most damaging options though. Overall I would probably prefer to rely on keep-away or corner baiting. The one thing that I can say though, as good as Bane is up-close, once your in the corner HG pressure seems to still be as effective as against anyone else (barring parry's). I'm interested to see the standing WE3 counters, I imagine it will depend on who times what when and the question is which counter is more reliable on each of their parts.


Also on the jump attacks the timing takes some getting used to but once you got it down: but it is possible to to J1 or J2 and hit on the way up (any jump attack under 9 frames I think on any character) so you can actually use these as a "ground move" though in that case you can only cancel into stomp, it does allows for a near instant double hit (both overhead). J1 is a little easier to get down pat and is only 5 frames, though its slightly less damage.
The only downside is there is no combo you can get out of it, you can only go into stomp for the knockdown (and 13-15%).

 

[TAS_DASH]

She has good mix ups up close and a great zoning game but one buff id do is make her flight easier to cancel and faster.

I would like your feedback. What good mix ups do you think she has other than b2 into options? Nothing else to my knowledge mixes up.

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

Looks like us Bane players like Hawkgirl too.

Hawkgirl has no reliable answer to Armor... AT ALL. The best ways to deal with armor is with fast multi-hits, with armor moves of your own, or zone. Too bad she has no reliable two hit move outside of her high hitting point blank f+1. She also has no advancing armor move or fast projectile. Her default armor moves SUCK. Slow speed. Poor range. Her 3 is not a reliable answer to armor because to let it be effective, you have to 1) let the 2 hits run making it very unsafe against both jump ins and zoner who can run away, 2) be at significant advantage due to the slow startup, and 3) be in close enough range because the range is so bad. I know her 3 works against armor... that doesn't mean it's a reliable solution. This is the same thing the Bane fanboys were saying about Level 3 Venom. Just because he can go through all projectiles doesn't mean that zoners don't destroy him.

This is why she is not even close to being a top character and is a mediocre character at best. SHE DOES NEED A BUFF. SHE DOES NEED A BUFF. How can you look at the Sinestro, Green Lantern, and Lex match-up and say she is a good character? They tear apart Hawkgirl effortlessly.

Bane vs. Hawkgirl is an even match-up for the same reasons the Bane & Hawkgirl fanboys keep bringing up.

Until Bane scores the knockdown, she has the advantage because Bane just can't hit her. Then the knockdown occurs... and Bane steam rolls her because of her garbage armor and anti-armor movelist. And then Venom goes to cooldown, and Hawkgirl freely pressures because Bane also lacks any escape options without Venom.

Even Match-up.

My proposals are 3 things:
1) Lessen cooldown on unfly when she lands on the ground post flight.
2a) Faster recovery on forward dash OR
2b) Faster walk speed
3) Ground Mace Toss can't be ducked.

 

[Boodendorf]

There's one buff I can agree with and that I didn't think of before:
Ground mace toss being uncrouchable would make 32 mt mb a true blockstring(6f reversals don't come out fast enough), and since mt mb is +14 on block it would give her a free b2 in the corner, a free 50/50. Midscreen it would make her pressure/frametraps even better midscreen. Batman can do it with mb batarang to extend pressure, hawkgirl would be able to do the same(not as effective tho).

I don't agree with the rest of the stuff listed here, especially with giving her an airdash while in flight mode, she'd be uncatchable (and they won't bother making new animations anyway).

 

[TAS_DASH]

http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/injustice/index_customize.html?tc=ya0-trjn52ko6zoa36jm8wmm61i7dpir6zkscee3cu74f7c89sgt6zli8wbfhijahi5oisa3cugdf2hr8w87cte48wl235j635cjf47jismm45002h00ju-bkf-naREO / Tom Brady-tiTier Chart for Injustice-ct999999-c1000000-c2000000-tvFF7101-thDD3C3C-d1Top Tier-x110-d2Low tier-x210-d3Has Faults-x310-d4Well Rounded-x47
This is Brady and Reo's new tier chart. They believe she is probably of level with say around the Joker due to the fact that she lacks options. These tier charts due not work as if it's a straight list. The further distance you away from the top right corner, the worst your character is. As I have stated before, I do not always agree with Brady and Reo and son't think they are the tier gods. They always say that there tier lists are current as their opinion. The Flash vortex fleshed out will move him up. It's potential 80% damage off of 2 bars. The Bane tech is rising and rising fast. His new armored 50/50 anti wake tech will help and new set ups are coming fast. I think some of those characters just have more potential to make strides. The Joker set ups are coming as well. He's very confusing in the right hands and has more upside than anyone in the lower other than Lex and maybe Harley. This is a problem for HG and it's due to her lack of options, which is what some of us have been trying to say for awhile. I'm curious for feedback.

 

[SLy]

The startup on her B3 needs to be decreased. It might be the slowest in the game.
I feel like her intechable knockdowns need to be improved.. her b13 isn't consistent enough and thats why its not used as often. She needs another one.

 

[Boodendorf]

The startup on her B3 needs to be decreased. It might be the slowest in the game.
I feel like her intechable knockdowns need to be improved.. her b13 isn't consistent enough and thats why its not used as often. She needs another one.

Divekick on a juggled opponent causes an untechable knockdown that lasts longer than sweep.

 

[SLy]

Yea.

I just feel like her b13 is really good but there aren't many ways to utilize it. And one of the best ways to utilize is of her b3. But its damn near impossible to get off at times.

 

[MKF30]

I eat banes for lunch daily with HG, he's not an issue if anything Grundy gives her move issues then Bane does. But honestly, Bane is so slow it's really hard to lose to Bane with HG unless you're bad or just learning her.

I would like your feedback. What good mix ups do you think she has other than b2 into options? Nothing else to my knowledge mixes up.

Her back 2, back 3 mix up is great mixed with back 2 2 3. I get people with it all the time up close often especially in the corner.

Also her poke is one of the best in the enyiregame. I

 

[TAS_DASH]

Her back 2, back 3 mix up is great mixed with back 2 2 3. I get people with it all the time up close often especially in the corner.

Also her poke is one of the best in the enyiregame. I

her poke, i feel, is the best but it's not low to create a mix up. It also doesn't lead to anything on block to mix up b/c it's negative and everything cancelled can be duck blocked or punished. I agree with you and feel b2 is good but as you said in corner situations. I feel it's very slow and range based to create mid screen mix-ups. I know people say she has a strong corner game, but so does every other character. Superman has corner mix ups, that lead to potentially 70%. 1 bar I'm using this to show that with everything else Supes has, he has a strong corner game, too.

 

[MKF30]

@ Tas_DASH I hear ya, but I'm not saying her poke is good for mix ups, just that it's great in general and good for backing people off you up close(outside of armored moves) and is really fast.

Her other mix up strings though I listed are great up close if you can manage and get the opportunity. Mid screen I usually just out zone or try to zone them out since she can do that well. Well, her poke in the corner is deadly because it's as you said arguably the best in the game or easily one of the best and fastest. I've literally trapped people the corner between her wing evade 2 juggle, her pokes and B2 mix ups...there's a few but not sure I'd say everyone in the game has a great corner game. Supes, HG, Shazam come to mind before anyone else usually.

I was thinking of using Supes but he's like Batman, overused lol so this is another reason why I like HG. She's hardly used compared to everyone else and very underrated imo.

 

[Miss Kanzuki]

I use B13 as a combo-ender

Usually adding it after a launcher like WE2, 22, or F13

And yes B3 needs to be buffed...I only land it when I hold back, and mash 3

 

[Jokerswild27]

I think her up shoulder after a mb mace toss needs better range