Hawkgirl Buff Suggestions

[TAS_DASH]

The reasons why I believe Hawkgirl needs buffs are:
1. Her flight is 2asy to neautralize.
2. Her neutral game struggles due to lack of mix-ups and overall short range or slow normals.


To create the 50/50 mix ups you can do these things I've thought of.
1. Make it where b2 doesn't push back so make b2,2 connect at full b2 range (or at least not nearly as much). This along with making WE2 go a slightly further (not necessarily full b2 range, but further) give her 1 true 50/50. The start up on b2 is slow anyway. with d1 being plus 16 on hit you could then set it up with that.
2. Make b2 a true mid for on every character at max distance so it can't be ducked.
3. Make f3 go slightly more forward. It's slow anyways
4. Make WE2 or dive kick two hits to deal with armor. She's using both of her feet anyways. WE3 would be too dirty if it counted as 2 hits. WE2 can be blown up anyway due to it's slower start up so if would have to be timed to punish armor.

Other suggestions.
1. Make b3 1-3 frames faster for easier combo damage. It's already hard enough to open people up with 1,2,3. It shouldn't be this hard to punish them. I can do it consistently, but a lot of people can't
2. Make ground mace throw mid. It has horrible start up. She's at horrible disadvantage on block due to its horrendous recovery. It can be be punished if jumped over. This will give chip as well.

What do you guys think? I think it doesn't save her from her negative match ups and almost every character can neutralize flight if played correctly. This gives her more options to at least stand a chance. She would still be mid, but mid with a chance of winning a tourney in the right hands.

Please add more, and let's objectively break them down.

 

[M2Dave]

Very good suggestions.

One of Hawkgirl's biggest weaknesses is the inability to create mix ups at mid range. Your suggestions would resolve this problem.

Other suggestions.

- aerial dash
- full screen diagonal aerial mace toss with reduced block stun and damage

 

[Showtime]

The reasons why I believe Hawkgirl needs buffs are:
1. Her flight is 2asy to neautralize.
2. Her neutral game struggles due to lack of mix-ups and overall short range or slow normals.


To create the 50/50 mix ups you can do these things I've thought of.
1. Make it where b2 doesn't push back so make b2,2 connect at full b2 range (or at least not nearly as much). This along with making WE2 go a slightly further (not necessarily full b2 range, but further) give her 1 true 50/50. The start up on b2 is slow anyway. with d1 being plus 16 on hit you could then set it up with that.
2. Make b2 a true mid for on every character at max distance so it can't be ducked.
3. Make f3 go slightly more forward. It's slow anyways
4. Make WE2 or dive kick two hits to deal with armor. She's using both of her feet anyways. WE3 would be too dirty if it counted as 2 hits. WE2 can be blown up anyway due to it's slower start up so if would have to be timed to punish armor.

Other suggestions.
1. Make b3 1-3 frames faster for easier combo damage. It's already hard enough to open people up with 1,2,3. It shouldn't be this hard to punish them. I can do it consistently, but a lot of people can't
2. Make ground mace throw mid. It has horrible start up. She's at horrible disadvantage on block due to its horrendous recovery. It can be be punished if jumped over. This will give chip as well.

What do you guys think? I think it doesn't save her from her negative match ups and almost every character can neutralize flight if played correctly. This gives her more options to at least stand a chance. She would still be mid, but mid with a chance of winning a tourney in the right hands.

Please add more, and let's objectively break them down.

Lol last night was hilarious "what match ups does hawk girl win!!"

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

 

[TAS_DASH]

Lol last night was hilarious "what match ups does hawk girl win!!"

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

This must be a rhetorical question Show

 

[TAS_DASH]

Very good suggestions.

One of Hawkgirl's biggest weaknesses is the inability to create mix ups at mid range. Your suggestions would resolve this problem.

Other suggestions.

- aerial dash
- full screen diagonal aerial mace toss with reduced block stun and damage

or another option the could help instead is allowing her to move in air once mace is thrown, but have a slight pause to recover when it comes back since people are saying an air dash will make her broken. I agree about the idea of an air dash. KF couldn't even fly until NRS got a hold of her.

 

[RYX]

Stahhhp Hawkgirl is good

RunwayMafia Espio educate us pls

 

[TAS_DASH]

Stahhhp Hawkgirl is good

RunwayMafia Espio educate us pls

When you go completely negative to the following how can you win a tourney:
1. Supes
2. Batman
3. Catwoman
4. DS
5. Cyborg
6. Black Adam
7. Wonder Woman
8. Sinestro
9. Lantern
10. Luthor
11. Batirl
12. Doomsday
13. Honestly if you know the match-up... Bane cane destroy her. No sarcasm here.

Update: I forgot Raven

 

[RYX]

When you go completely negative to the following how can you win a tourney:
1. Supes
2. Batman
3. Catwoman
4. DS
5. Cyborg
6. Black Adam
7. Wonder Woman
8. Sinestro
9. Lantern
10. Luthor
11. Batirl
12. Doomsday
13. Honestly if you know the match-up... Bane cane destroy her. No sarcasm here.

Black Adam doesn't destroy her. :S

Bane doesn't either. Push block is your friend and MB maces take care of armored approaches up to leave three. It's even or slightly in HG's favor.

She has flaws yeah but I think a turtle doesn't need 50/50s. In this game, though... I can see why she might. Maybe she just needs better tools? (I don't main her but she miiiight become my third, I'm too picky to choose lol)

 

[M2Dave]

Black Adam doesn't destroy her. :S

You need to fight better Black Adam players.

 

[TAS_DASH]

Black Adam doesn't destroy her. :S

Bane doesn't either. Push block is your friend and MB maces take care of armored approaches up to leave three. It's even or slightly in HG's favor.

Go back and look at the general thread and see how to easily beat her with BA. A BA player is basically how I began to see the holes in her game. He can time her out after 1 combo. As long as he doesn't jump, unless she throws down mace (which can be read) he can back back full screen where she can't do anything. When you learn a character you should learn how to defeat your own character. BA's weird ducking hurt box allows him to duck all WE options except a touching WE2. How often does this happen. You have to super delay her WE3 to hit him ducking which is now a risk. If try to fly MC to cover his back dash you are now in range for his punish j2 or MB dive kick into full combo.

As she slowly falls from flight get ready for a full screen unavoidable cloud and lightning strike for 12%. If just how and whiff MT's to gain meter. He can whiff special moves too to counter that.

Trust me... I know a lot of tech to beat her in any match-up that you are not thinking of. BA's back dash is too fast. If he jumps over down mt he can dive kick her for full combo or go over it and back dash the other way. Just bc most BA players are aggressive don't think they're not above learning this match up.

These are just the ones she's completely free to.

 

[Espio]

Stahhhp Hawkgirl is good

RunwayMafia Espio educate us pls

I'm good, not much for arguing or debating lately lol. I don't think she needs buffs, but I'm not particularly invested either way in convincing people who think she sucks otherwise, others have tried already.



I think Hawkgirl is good at what she does as a hit and run character, her weaknesses, which she definitely has have to do with opening people up, range of her normals and sometimes getting a lifelead back can be tricky, but I don't think her having these weaknesses means she needs a buff, just that her weaknesses make her mid tier.


She has a solid corner game(where her mix ups and damage shine), her wing evade 2 and 3 are both safe on block as is mace charge(yes you can blow these up, but moves having weaknesses doesn't make them bad). She's generally a safe character overall with strings like 3,2, back 1 and others with plus frame advantage and pushback.

Her down 2 is superb anti-air and is great for blowing up body splash type jumps from Doomsday and such and other jump ins generally speaking. Her down 1 has solid range and is only -2 on block, which on hit can combo into mace charge, which if blocked is neutral.

Yes, her whiff recovery on ground mace is really bad, but ground mace toss is can be cancelled and meter burned to be safe and is plus frames on block. She's not meant to use ground mace much though anyway so that's not a big deal.


It's too early to really say she NEEDS buffs, but that's just me.

 

[TAS_DASH]

Black Adam doesn't destroy her. :S

Bane doesn't either. Push block is your friend and MB maces take care of armored approaches up to leave three. It's even or slightly in HG's favor.

She has flaws yeah but I think a turtle doesn't need 50/50s. In this game, though... I can see why she might. Maybe she just needs better tools? (I don't main her but she miiiight become my third, I'm too picky to choose lol)

What can she do to stop Bane's back dash if she's in flight? She definitely can't romp with Bane other the ground. Her combo's are too slow to hit him out of armor. If she tries to above Bane, he can Venom uppercut her out the air free. He can blow up all wing evade's outside of WE3 canceled after a b2 including not pushing buttons after WE. What can she do to stop his anti wake up? She's one of the characters who can't stop his anti wake up game.

 

[RYX]

What can she do to stop Bane's back dash if she's in flight? She definitely can't romp with Bane other the ground. Her combo's are too slow to hit him out of armor. If she tries to above Bane, he can Venom uppercut her out the air free. He can blow up all wing evade's outside of WE3 canceled after a b2. What can she do to stop his anti wake up? She's one of the characters who can't stop his anti wake up game.

What can he do about hers? What can he do when he's cornered, she's in the air, able to smash his armor with MB moves or evade command grab set-ups on reaction(referring to tick throws).

It's a matter of taking the life lead. Bane isn't getting it back when he loses it unless he corners you. That's pretty much it. He also relies heavily on Venom to even get anything started which is never good.

 

[TAS_DASH]

What can he do about hers? What can he do when he's cornered, she's in the air, able to smash his armor with MB moves or evade command grab set-ups on reaction(referring to tick throws).

It's a matter of taking the life lead. Bane isn't getting it back when he loses it unless he corners you. That's pretty much it. He also relies heavily on Venom to even get anything started which is never good.

Meterless venom uppercut. Correctly managed venom lasts 21 secs, with a 6 second cool down and he can out back dash her forward progress and get it right back. Tick throws is not even the beginning of Bane's anti wake up game. You need to learn that match-up. It can be a nightmare. HG literally has no escape for it.

 

[RYX]

Meterless venom uppercut. Correctly managed venom lasts 21 secs, with a 6 second cool down and he can out back dash her forward progress and get it right back. Tick throws is not even the beginning of Bane's anti wake up game. You need to learn that match-up. It can be a nightmare. HG literally has no escape for it.

Are you seriously telling me what Bane's anti wake-up game is lol. Someone hasn't heard of examples. But they're all escapable. It's a matter of reads.

I think you need to learn the match-up. I've played really solid Hawkgirl players. It's even at the very worst.

 

[TAS_DASH]

Are you seriously telling me what Bane's anti wake-up game is lol. Someone hasn't heard of examples. But they're all escapable. It's a matter of reads.

I think you need to learn the match-up. I've played really solid Hawkgirl players. It's even at the very worst.

Keep thinking that... Hawk girl has no option, but to block, which then leads to Bane at advantage when venom is on. Now you are in a 50/50 wake up game. That's never good. Either that or level up your Bane and learn this tech. Once you know it... your Bane automatically moves up another level. He still has awful match ups, but he can surely deal with this one... no problem.

 

[RYX]

Keep thinking that... Hawk girl no option, but to block, which then leads to Bane at advantage when venom is on. Now you are in a 50/50 wake up game. That's never good. Either that or level up your Bane and learn this tech. Once you know it... your Bane automatically moves up another level. He still has awful match ups, but he can surely deal with this one... no problem.

lol

Also no it doesn't. You can back-dash after all his pressure set-ups. You get raped in the corner, and it's even midscreen. random pls.

i didn't say this mu was awful at all. I said it was even. :16Bit

 

[TAS_DASH]

lol

Also no it doesn't. You can back-dash after all his pressure set-ups. You get raped in the corner, and it's even midscreen. random pls.

i didn't say this mu was awful at all. I said it was even. :16Bit

Then obviously you don't know the tech, so happy hunting finding it. It can't be back dashed on wake up by anyone. I's an armored (meterless) 50/50 on wake up. HG is one the few characters who struggles with this.

 

[Miss Kanzuki]

Hawkgirl doesnt need buffs they just need to clip dat batcord on ole gurl

 

[Tiger Wong]

Jeez. I knew it was gonna end up like this.

Bane's uppercut has limited range. Yes, it can hit her in flight. When he's close enough. How is that gonna happen though? Is he gonna dash through a bunch of diagonal MTs? Why on earth would HG fly in that range and not anticipate the ONLY MOVE HE CAN STOP HER FLIGHT WITH?!

Dash, unless youre gonna be productive, just go somewhere. This is a "give HG buffs thread". Not a "hey look at me! I think I know the matchup and You don't so I get to talk down to everybody! Thread".

 

[regulas]

The problem with a lot of the arguments against Hawkgirl is they are based on re-active counters, which is basically assuming the Hawkgirl is going to play in a specific offensive way and you are always going to predict exactly what she is going to do first. And that she is not going to try the same tricks on you. Also keep in mind HG is not played a lot.

The match-up with BA is even only because of BA's better combo damage mid-screen. He has lot's of counters but few offensive options in that MU. Also his counters are not infallible, I find by simply varying your timing you can actually counter a lot of his counters.

Bane: 3 is your best friend, HG has several ways to break his armor they are just not normal tech for most match-ups so HG's often forget what they can do against Bane (since that is an equally rare match-up)

Also in any match-up, the timing is insane, but WE can dodge any move if the timing is spot on (it nullifies the move rather then physically evading it)

 

[M2Dave]

The problem with a lot of the arguments against Hawkgirl is they are based on re-active counters, which is basically assuming the Hawkgirl is going to play in a specific offensive way and you are always going to predict exactly what she is going to do first. And that she is not going to try the same tricks on you. Also keep in mind HG is not played a lot.

The match-up with BA is even only because of BA's better combo damage mid-screen. He has lot's of counters but few offensive options in that MU. Also his counters are not infallible, I find by simply varying your timing you can actually counter a lot of his counters.

First of all, the match up against Black Adam is not even. He does twice as much damage as Hawkgirl mid screen. He has one of the best and reliable whiff punishment for flight and mace charge. J.2 has a massive hitbox and leads into 1,1 Trait b+2,3 u+1+3 for 37% of damage. He can get 40%+ if he spends one bar. He can easily maneuver around aerial mace tosses with dive kicks. After a life lead, he can run away with dive kicks and Hawkgirl has a difficult time catching him. His b+2 has more range than any of Hawkgirl's normal attacks. I could go on and on, but you get the point.

Hawkgirl does not suck. She does well against a couple of top tier characters, but Black Adam is definitely not one of them. Tell your friends to step up their game.

 

[regulas]

First of all, the match up against Black Adam is not even. He does twice as much damage as Hawkgirl mid screen. He has one of the best and reliable whiff punishment for flight and mace charge. J.2 has a massive hitbox and leads into 1,1 Trait b+2,3 u+1+3 for 37% of damage. He can get 40%+ if he spends one bar. He can easily maneuver around aerial mace tosses with dive kicks. After a life lead, he can run away with dive kicks and Hawkgirl has a difficult time catching him. His b+2 has more range than any of Hawkgirl's normal attacks. I could go on and on, but you get the point.

Hawkgirl does not suck. She does well against a couple of top tier characters, but Black Adam is definitely not one of them. Tell your friends to step up their game.

Every single thing you posted is a counter.

 

[M2Dave]

Every single thing you posted is a counter.

What are you doing in the match up? Holding back for 99 seconds?

He also wins the neutral game.

 

[regulas]

What are you doing in the match up? Holding back for 99 seconds?

He also wins the neutral game.

The point is you entire tactic is to assume that the Hawkgirl player will use a specific playstyle you are used to, and that you will rely on the specific counters that beat that playstyle.

Of note it's not like J2 isn't counterable.