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Match-up Discussion Green Arrow In Depth Match Up Discussion (1.06)

7L

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So would you say it's someone's advantage? How well do crouching arrows go under fear blasts?
3/4 and 1/4 you can duck and shoot an arrow. I haven't played it much recently but I feel that it's even. You just need to work to get in and be patient with your arrow type choices. Like fire to punish from the ducking distances
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
So why do arrow players insist on using crappy damage combos rather than like... damaging combos with the ice arrow as a set-up ender?
I heard he doesn't get good damage, but I mean 40%+ for 1 bar isn't shabby at all.
 
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Cossner

King of the Jobbers 2015
So why do arrow players insist on using crappy damage combos rather than like... damaging combos with the ice arrow as a set-up ender?
I heard he doesn't get good damage, but I mean 40%+ for 1 bar isn't shabby at all.
You mean 2 bars and if you can land a J1, which is virtually impossible.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
You mean 2 bars and if you can land a J1, which is virtually impossible.
Uh, no... Like 1 bar. With a standing ender if you don't waste your ice arrow and settle for like... 27% and another load. The jump-in isn't totally necessary but I mean if you can get a set-up, why not?
 

Cossner

King of the Jobbers 2015
Uh, no... Like 1 bar. With a standing ender if you don't waste your ice arrow and settle for like... 27% and another load. The jump-in isn't totally necessary but I mean if you can get a set-up, why not?
Because 111 is the only string that can net you that damage, but landing the first 2 ones is super hard since they're both highs. The J2 is unusable for jump ins, and j1 doesn't hit crouching people most of the time. So you can dash in and 111, which will fail horribly, or you can jump in and 111. The only usable Jump In would be J3. But it causes a knockdown, therefore you can't really do 111 (they fall too fast sometimes, other times it'll will work but you can't really do anything after that in the corner but frozen arrow or end it).

What 1 bar? Green Arrow doesn't have specials that extend combos if you MB them, unlike most characters.
MBing Stinger to finish a combo isn't word it most of the time. And Load Arrow is extremely useful. In match ups like Raven's, Zod's, Ares', Scorp's, you CAN'T load an arrow freely because you'll get punished, even on reaction. So having an arrow equipped at all times is very, very useful.

Also, mid-screen pressure is highly overrated. He doesn't have lows. He has F2D1, which is very readable (23 frames start up), D3, that leads to nothing (19 frames), Stinger that's unsafe, plus leads to nothing (18 frames), and Low arrows (22 frames). All his lows are slow as fuck.
 
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Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Because 111 is the only string that can net you that damage, but landing the first 2 ones is super hard since they're both highs.

What 1 bar? Green Arrow doesn't have specials that extend combos if you MB them, like most characters.
MBing Stinger to finish a combo isn't word it most of the time. And Load Arrow is extremely useful. In match ups like Raven's, Zod's, Ares', Scorp's, you CAN'T load an arrow freely because you'll get punished, even on reaction. So having an arrow equipped at all times is very, very useful.

Also, mid-screen pressure is highly overrated. He doesn't have lows. He has F2D1, which is very readable (23 frames start up), D3, that leads to nothing (19 frames), Stinger that's unsafe, plus leads to nothing (18 frames), and Low arrows (22 frames). All his lows are slow as fuck.
I'm feeling too lazy to plug up my equipment, so can I get back to you with one or two videos on this in like a day or two?

In the corner, if you MB that 111xxblast it does a fair amount of extra damage. Also Arrow has some pretty decent set-ups off of a late stinger knockdown when it comes to cross-ups and non-cross ups.
 

Cossner

King of the Jobbers 2015
I'm feeling too lazy to plug up my equipment, so can I get back to you with one or two videos on this in like a day or two?

In the corner, if you MB that 111xxblast it does a fair amount of extra damage. Also Arrow has some pretty decent set-ups off of a late stinger knockdown when it comes to cross-ups and non-cross ups.
Why would you 111 xx mb savage blast? The second hit will whiff and it's hardly the best ender. MB Stinger is the most damaging special ender if you MB it, Hurricane Blade is without MBing anything. Either way, you can either end with a setup that switches the wake up inputs, or loading an arrow.

Unless you mean 111 xx MB Up Haven Blast, which then you'd be terribly wrong, since the MB part only lands on Big hitbox characters and in like 1 or 2 stages.

If you get to land 111 xx Up Haven Blast (not the MB vs) against a character that has a normal hitbox, in a stage where it works, you can get up to 50%+ with an ice arrow, no meter. But then again, you're never gonna land 111.

Also no idea what you mean by late stinger knockdown when it comes to cross ups and non cross ups. You mean, comboing with stinger in the corner? Honestly no idea what you meant lol
 

Cossner

King of the Jobbers 2015
Not savage blast, the upwards blast. I usually just refer to savage blast as "savage"
Right. Then read what I wrote. It only works against like Lex in Atlantis, or the museum (after the right part has been destroyed) and that's it (of course it probably works in like 1 other stage I'm too lazy to check, but you get the point).

If you're wondering about the 50% corner combo I was talking about:

J2 -> 111 xx Up Haven Blast -> 111 xx Frozen Arrow -> J2 -> 111 xx Up Haven Blast -> 111 xx Stinger, or whatever.

But J2 and 111 are incredibly hard to land, that's why most of the time we just stick to F2D13.
 
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Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Right. Then read what I wrote. It only works against like Lex in Atlantis, or the museum (after the right part has been destroyed) and that's it (of course it probably works in like 1 other stage I'm too lazy to check, but you get the point).

If you're wondering about the 50% corner combo I was talking about:

J2 -> 111 xx Up Haven Blast -> 111 xx Frozen Arrow -> J2 -> 111 xx Up Haven Blast -> 111 xx Stinger, or whatever.

But J2 and 111 are incredibly hard to land, that's why most of the time we just stick to F2D13.
Actually it works on medium characters too, and it works on any stage where there is a wall to hit with the 2nd blast (Asylum, hall of justice, insurgency, Atlantis, Museum, etc). It only doesn't work on small characters. I assume Superman is whats considered a "standard hitbox", right? You lose about 5 or 6% on these guys, but the set-up is all the same.

If so, then you always have the option of doing something like j.2 -> 3xxMB blast b.134 111xxarrow load for 41% and an arrow set-up.
Or like... j.2 3xxMB blast b.134 b.13xxhurricane bow for 46%.
You also can do stuff like 3xxMB blast b.134 f.214 if you have an ice arrow loaded for the first one.

I think I might have a video of one of these. I'm trying to record my stinger set-up right now, which is a really stupidly ambig. cross-up/non-cross-up thing.


Heres an example of one. No arrow, just a load.


This one is no arrow, no load, just damage.


This one is set-up into arrow load, though I probably could've broken about 40% had I went for an ender instead.
 
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Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor

This is the stinger thing I was talking about. It may still be buffering so pardon the quality if it seems a bit bad compared to the others.
 

Cossner

King of the Jobbers 2015
Actually it works on medium characters too, and it works on any stage where there is a wall to hit with the 2nd blast (Asylum, hall of justice, insurgency, Atlantis, Museum, etc). It only doesn't work on small characters. I assume Superman is whats considered a "standard hitbox", right? You lose about 5 or 6% on these guys, but the set-up is all the same.

If so, then you always have the option of doing something like j.2 -> 3xxMB blast b.134 111xxarrow load for 41% and an arrow set-up.
Or like... j.2 3xxMB blast b.134 b.13xxhurricane bow for 46%.
You also can do stuff like 3xxMB blast b.134 f.214 if you have an ice arrow loaded for the first one.

I think I might have a video of one of these. I'm trying to record my stinger set-up right now, which is a really stupidly ambig. cross-up/non-cross-up thing.


Heres an example of one. No arrow, just a load.


This one is no arrow, no load, just damage.


This one is set-up into arrow load, though I probably could've broken about 40% had I went for an ender instead.
But it's super hard to land the J2 in a real game. I'm telling you, after a year of Injustice, it's harder than iron balls, and even if you did, you'd need to hit confirm into 3 and all that shit. If you don't and you do 3 into Up Haven Blast and they crouch you get full combo punished. You're getting full combo punished and wasting a bar because you wanted an extra 5%? IMO, that's not worth it.

And a more damaging (meterless) version of the first one would be J2 xx 3 -> Up Haven Blast -> 111 xx Sky Alert -> 111 xx Load Arrow for 41% (44% if you mb the up haven blast, so you're doing extra 3% for 1 bar, which arrow desperately needs).
The second one you can change it the same way I did for the first one and add Hurricane Blade or Stinger and you get 45%.

Third one is a huge waste of arrow and bar. If you have the arrow, why don't you do F2D13 -> 111 xx Sky Alert -> 11 xx Frozen Arrow -> J2 -> 111 xx Arrow instead, you get 38% meterless, and you leave them standing, you being at +28, up close.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
But it's super hard to land the J2 in a real game. I'm telling you, after a year of Injustice, it's harder than iron balls, and even if you did, you'd need to hit confirm into 3 and all that shit. If you don't and you do 3 into Up Haven Blast and they crouch you get full combo punished. You're getting full combo punished and wasting a bar because you wanted an extra 5%? IMO, that's not worth it.

And a more damaging (meterless) version of the first one would be J2 xx 3 -> Up Haven Blast -> 111 xx Sky Alert -> 111 xx Load Arrow for 41% (44% if you mb the up haven blast, so you're doing extra 3% for 1 bar, which arrow desperately needs).
The second one you can change it the same way I did for the first one and add Hurricane Blade or Stinger and you get 45%.

Third one is a huge waste of arrow and bar. If you have the arrow, why don't you do F2D13 -> 111 xx Sky Alert -> 11 xx Frozen Arrow -> J2 -> 111 xx Arrow instead, you get 38% meterless, and you leave them standing, you being at +28, up close.
Thats true of 111 as well, only you can't duck standing 3. Also while 111 doesn't work on some medium bodies, standing 3 seems to be consistent on all of them. If you wager they are going to duck, you can at least do something to the effect of j.2 3xxsavage and hop out as soon as things look hairy. Thats not something you can usually do with 11. At the cost of being a touch slower, you get a lot more practicality out of it.

As for the rest of it, I mean these are just like a gist of it all. I don't see too much trouble in spending a bar when you earn quite a fair bit of it back. Plus theres a nice unclashable aspect to it since f.3 and b.3 can combo out of Mb blast. It just looks handy.
 

Eric The Scruffy

Premium
Premium Supporter
But it's super hard to land the J2 in a real game. I'm telling you, after a year of Injustice, it's harder than iron balls, and even if you did, you'd need to hit confirm into 3 and all that shit. If you don't and you do 3 into Up Haven Blast and they crouch you get full combo punished. You're getting full combo punished and wasting a bar because you wanted an extra 5%? IMO, that's not worth it.

And a more damaging (meterless) version of the first one would be J2 xx 3 -> Up Haven Blast -> 111 xx Sky Alert -> 111 xx Load Arrow for 41% (44% if you mb the up haven blast, so you're doing extra 3% for 1 bar, which arrow desperately needs).
The second one you can change it the same way I did for the first one and add Hurricane Blade or Stinger and you get 45%.

Third one is a huge waste of arrow and bar. If you have the arrow, why don't you do F2D13 -> 111 xx Sky Alert -> 11 xx Frozen Arrow -> J2 -> 111 xx Arrow instead, you get 38% meterless, and you leave them standing, you being at +28, up close.
I have to agree....the combos have some very nice swag factor, but his go to BNBs just make more sense and require less resources that I would prefer to use either for pushblocking, mbing a F3/B3, or good ole fashioned supah.

EDIT: @Doombawkz got anything from midscreen?
 
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Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
I have to agree....the combos have some very nice swag factor, but his go to BNBs just make more sense and require less resources that I would prefer to use either for pushblocking, mbing a F3/B3, or good ole fashioned supah.

EDIT: @Doombawkz got anything from midscreen?
Aye, but depends what youre looking for.
 

Eric The Scruffy

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Premium Supporter
Aye, but depends what youre looking for.
Here's the scenarios I'm trying to optimize and what I have ATM. I can't remember exactly how much damage each does of the top of my head unfortunately. I'm honestly up for anything. Swag combos are still cool even if they're not optimized and since I'm dead set on character loyalty I might as well try and know every in and out on my character.



-From midscreen after landing an ice arrow:
My standard BNB here is B3 J3 J2 223 xx Arrow. Occasionally if I'm online and I'm not confident in the connection I will go for B3 dash in sky alert sky alert 223 xx arrow. I know the former nets me more damage though.
Is there any higher damaging string I can use with or without meter that still ends with an arrow load?

-From midscreen after landing an ice arrow from a J3 F2D1 arrow or J3 22 Arrow:
In this scenario I cannot land a J3 J2 so I usually go for a B3 dash in Sky alert 223 xx arrow. Got anything more damaging.


-When my enemy has me cornered and I have successfully landed an ice arrow on him:
I usually go for a B3 dash in standing 3 sky alert 223 xx arrow. This now puts my opponent in the corner. Can I be getting anymore damage while achieving the same result?

-Background bounce interactible specific:
This is something I've not 100% completely integrated into my gameplan yet, but I recognize how important it is.
If I hit them with an ice arrow on the ground I usually go for the standard 111 background bounce J3 223 xx arrow.

Other scenarios are what I'm more concerned about. What are the optimized combos for:

-When I land an ice arrow off of a J3 F2D1 arrow or J3 22 Arrow?
-When I perform a B3 J3 22 background bounce and or B3 J3 22 Ice Arrow?
 

Cossner

King of the Jobbers 2015
-From midscreen after landing an ice arrow:
My standard BNB here is B3 J3 J2 223 xx Arrow. Occasionally if I'm online and I'm not confident in the connection I will go for B3 dash in sky alert sky alert 223 xx arrow. I know the former nets me more damage though.
Is there any higher damaging string I can use with or without meter that still ends with an arrow load?
111 instead of 223 deals more damage.
-From midscreen after landing an ice arrow from a J3 F2D1 arrow or J3 22 Arrow:
In this scenario I cannot land a J3 J2 so I usually go for a B3 dash in Sky alert 223 xx arrow. Got anything more damaging.
Yeah J2 doesn't work if you start with J3. Why I choose to do after this is usually SimSim's reset, the J2 J2 cross up reset or J2 -> 111 xx arrow for the advantage. But you want damage, you can do J3 -> 11/22 xx 4 -> B3 -> J3 -> 3 xx Hurricane Blade (34%).
-When my enemy has me cornered and I have successfully landed an ice arrow on him:
I usually go for a B3 dash in standing 3 sky alert 223 xx arrow. This now puts my opponent in the corner. Can I be getting anymore damage while achieving the same result?
Yeah, replace 223 for 111.
-Background bounce interactible specific:
This is something I've not 100% completely integrated into my gameplan yet, but I recognize how important it is.
If I hit them with an ice arrow on the ground I usually go for the standard 111 background bounce J3 223 xx arrow.
223 for 111 :p or after you freeze them B3 -> 3 xx Sky Alert -> 3 BGB -> J2 -> 111 xx Load Arrow, but I'm not sure which one deals more damage, I'll check later.
Other scenarios are what I'm more concerned about. What are the optimized combos for:

-When I land an ice arrow off of a J3 F2D1 arrow or J3 22 Arrow?
Above :p
-When I perform a B3 J3 22 background bounce and or B3 J3 22 Ice Arrow?
It depends on where you are. If you're getting close to the BGB, go for B3 -> J3 -> J2 -> 1 xx BGB -> J2 -> 111 xx Load Arrow. If you're kinda close, getting to the middle of the BGB, and doing a J2 after a J3 would get you out of the range of the BGB, then go for B3 -> J3 -> 3 xx BGB -> J3 -> 111 xx Load Arrow. If you have a Frozen Arrow, then I suggest finishing the combo with it and resetting them into SimSim's reset, the J2 J2 reset or the 111 xx arrow for advantage. It'd be something like B3 -> J3 -> 3 xx BGB -> J3 -> 1 xx Frozen Arrow -> J2 -> 111 xx Arrow.
 
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Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Ill reply with more detail when I get home but you should check the combos in my guide.
Pretty much this. I do a fair bit of combo work, but I tend to leave this stuff to the experts. My combos were just things I got off of the late-stinger CU/NCU thing
 

Eric The Scruffy

Premium
Premium Supporter
Hmm....what's your opinion on the damage trade off of 111 versus the hard knockdown of 223 then? I originally always went for the 111 ender but after people started just tech rolling out of all my oki pressure I decided hell with this and started doing 223 at the end of everything outside of the corner. I might be sacrificing some damage but it feels worth the tradeoff.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Depends. Off of a juggle, 223 is pretty much always better. 111 gives better advantage but it can be rolled out of pretty easily (though arrow has some nice set-ups to abuse that vs some characters)
 

Cossner

King of the Jobbers 2015
Hmm....what's your opinion on the damage trade off of 111 versus the hard knockdown of 223 then? I originally always went for the 111 ender but after people started just tech rolling out of all my oki pressure I decided hell with this and started doing 223 at the end of everything outside of the corner. I might be sacrificing some damage but it feels worth the tradeoff.
If they tech roll, hold an arrow and jump forward, if the don't, then NJ with the arrow. You're not really sacrificing anything, you just need to react to what they do.
Depends. Off of a juggle, 223 is pretty much always better. 111 gives better advantage but it can be rolled out of pretty easily (though arrow has some nice set-ups to abuse that vs some characters)
What are this magical setups I hear of?
 

Cossner

King of the Jobbers 2015
Anyway in other news, this is what I have to say about the MMH match-up:



I'll be kinda pissed if we don't get a patch before Injustice dies that addresses Green Arrow main issues, so we can at least have a decent CHANCE.
 

Red Reaper

The Hyrax Whisperer
Anyway in other news, this is what I have to say about the MMH match-up:



I'll be kinda pissed if we don't get a patch before Injustice dies that addresses Green Arrow main issues, so we can at least have a decent CHANCE.
I don't really know what kan make the Martian match up better outside of game related issues like not switching sides fast enough to AA his instant air dashes with standing 1.

Fixing the hitbox on his MB B3 would definitely help, because right now while it's possible to MB B3 the teleport, the fact that you have to delay it makes it harder to the point where it's usually just better to read it. (Also, why does Arrow get like no damage kompared to others for F3 (even MB F3) into a kombo?)