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Strategy Forcing a Reaction

salvificblood

Worst Sub-Zero Ever
Premium Supporter
Okay guys i`ll ask here
Its embarrassing but how the hell can i techroll?:D
You've probably been doing it already, it's one of the things you have to get used to doing as Sub; it's how I deal with Jax's gay pressure a lot of the time, I'll tech roll into clone or if he is trying to stay close enough to break the proximity, I'll tech roll into slide. You must have been doing this before now.

I just mash back and any other input to roll. Usually 1.
 
You've probably been doing it already, it's one of the things you have to get used to doing as Sub; it's how I deal with Jax's gay pressure a lot of the time, I'll tech roll into clone or if he is trying to stay close enough to break the proximity, I'll tech roll into slide. You must have been doing this before now.

I just mash back and any other input to roll. Usually 1.
yea im doing many rollbacks but i never really think how to make a roll back
thx, i guess b1 will work ^^
 

salvificblood

Worst Sub-Zero Ever
Premium Supporter
yea im doing many rollbacks but i never really think how to make a roll back
thx, i guess b1 will work ^^
Yeah, you really do have to mash away at your buttons, lol. Go into practise, set the dummy to wakeup if you don't have a person to practise with, knock the dummy down and then let the dummy knock you down so you canpractise mashing back and 1, lol. The reasonyou mash is because the wakeup timing is all over the place. So turbo mash away.
 
I have debated if I should even post any more related to this or not. This is not a 100 % working Be all Fix all but another option. And of course there is a Work Around for the Opponent and if there wasn't it would be broken which I stated in the 1st post. No this is not a Endless Vortex that you rinse and repeat and hope for the best. The examples I showed are not a monkey see monkey do presentation of how to attempt the setup but just a way to get the timing down.

I tried to explain the importance of limited options the opponent will have to do in-order to escape. Yes they have to time a tech roll if they even have time to react to which ever combo you decide to end the Proper (D3). You don't have to throw out a Ice Puddle every time u attempt the setup....... try a fully charged (B2) or a (B2) cancel to offensive jump punch to a dash (2, 1). IF the Elite Opponent that did a Tech Roll to your Proper (D3) & is thinking he is going to jump punch punish for free just got Blown Up with a Anti Air to (2, 1) juggle etc..... You can keep it simple which I think most of your folks prefer.... Proper (D3) to a (B2) 1/2 charged cancel to your beloved Ice Clone.

All I ever wanted to show is that the Ice Puddle is not as useless as everyone claims. Preventing a player from jumping, blocking, or playing dead on the ground- seems pretty useful IMO. The Opponent has to either Tech Roll or do a Wake Up attack on reaction if they see it coming and I already explain how this setup limits the opponent from using certain Wake Up moves- which also seems useful IMO.

Certain Match Ups for Sub-Zero this limits his odds/advantage to the opponents favor and I would not ever go for Ice Puddle while others the numbers are in Sub-Zero's favor.

~StaticJack
 
You've probably been doing it already, it's one of the things you have to get used to doing as Sub; it's how I deal with Jax's gay pressure a lot of the time, I'll tech roll into clone or if he is trying to stay close enough to break the proximity, I'll tech roll into slide. You must have been doing this before now.

I just mash back and any other input to roll. Usually 1.
Try a Proper (D3) to (B2) semi charge cancel back dash to (D4 option select Ice ball or freeze) If Jax does a wake up attack Ex-Rush punch you will seem god like ;-) and if he doesn't you will whiff a (D4) and be in the perfect spacing on Jax for another (D4) t0 clone. If you prefer to keep in simple walk back and (D4 option select Ice ball or freeze) which you should be incorporating already into your footies game against Jax.

Here seems to be the Best All Around safe option the neutralizes Jax on his wake up. Proper (D3)to a (B2) Semi charge back dash to (D3) then reaction (2, 2) to Ice ball. If will almost stuff everything Jax does on reaction ;-)

~StaticJack
 
Try a Proper (D3) to (B2) semi charge cancel back dash to (D4 option select Ice ball or freeze) If Jax does a wake up attack Ex-Rush punch you will seem god like ;-) and if he doesn't you will whiff a (D4) and be in the perfect spacing on Jax for another (D4) t0 clone. If you prefer to keep in simple walk back and (D4 option select Ice ball or freeze) which you should be incorporating already into your footies game against Jax.

Here seems to be the Best All Around safe option the neutralizes Jax on his wake up. Proper (D3)to a (B2) Semi charge back dash to (D3) then reaction (2, 2) to Ice ball. If will almost stuff everything Jax does on reaction ;-)

~StaticJack
Sry my kid was in the back ground playing when I captured this video​
Wtf is a ''Proper'' (D4)?
Its when you land the Proper (D3 not a (D4)) at the end of any combo that's the same timing if you were to do a ice Puddle and player could not jump, block or play dead out of. Proper (D3) is kind of the whole point of the thread.​
~StaticJack​
 
14% + 8% = 22%

2, 1, 2 Ice Ball, dash, (B1), 2, 2, 1, Slide = 29%
No dis respect but this is not a combo damage example- just how to get the timing down and to limit Jax's options. I guess I have to show full combo punishes to the Proper (D3) setup in order for people to grasp the potential :-(
 

STB Bodam

BodamEscapePlan
I think I see what you're saying...
This gives them the quicker stand-up/smaller window for wake-up; doesn't it?
Like a tricky reset. I like this.
 

Noble Raptor

Premium
Premium Supporter
No dis respect but this is not a combo damage example- just how to get the timing down and to limit Jax's options. I guess I have to show full combo punishes to the Proper (D3) setup in order for people to grasp the potential :-(
I like B2 mindgames myself but they are really just gimmicks I do in casual matches. You are giving up damage for something that has like 25% chance of working and can possibly backfire on you. Your opponent can stay in the same position and won't be affected unless you dash cancel forward, which puts you at greater risk of eating a wake-up attack. Or the opponent can tech roll to get out safely. If you're doing this off of a grounded frozen opponent, you might as well go for his B1, 2, 1 combo which has a safer mix-up, more damage and leads to pressure.
 

salvificblood

Worst Sub-Zero Ever
Premium Supporter
You guys might be missing something here. When you go for 21 pressure with Sub and the second part of the string hits, but you were going to stop at 1, you have no time to hit confirm into 2, iceball, so you could, theoretically, see that he's frozen and then d3 into this setup which is actually fairly neat against Jax.

Not sure how you'd set it up at the end of combos.
 

Noble Raptor

Premium
Premium Supporter
You guys might be missing something here. When you go for 21 pressure with Sub and the second part of the string hits, but you were going to stop at 1, you have no time to hit confirm into 2, iceball, so you could, theoretically, see that he's frozen and then d3 into this setup which is actually fairly neat against Jax.

Not sure how you'd set it up at the end of combos.
You can hit confirm it into D4, Slide for 18% while 2, 1, D3 is 8%. or let's say the opponent blocked the 2 so (2), 1, D4, Slide is 14% while (2), 1, D3 is 3%. I'd rather go for the higher damage than something that can be escaped 100% of the time. I like B2 mindgames a lot and it is a good concept but it won't work against players that know how to tech roll.
 

salvificblood

Worst Sub-Zero Ever
Premium Supporter
You can hit confirm it into D4, Slide for 18% while 2, 1, D3 is 8%. or let's say the opponent blocked the 2 so (2), 1, D4, Slide is 14% while (2), 1, D3 is 3%. I'd rather go for the higher damage than something that can be escaped 100% of the time. I like B2 mindgames a lot and it is a good concept but it won't work against players that know how to tech roll.

You can and I prefer that, too.
 
I like B2 mindgames myself but they are really just gimmicks I do in casual matches. You are giving up damage for something that has like 25% chance of working and can possibly backfire on you. Your opponent can stay in the same position and won't be affected unless you dash cancel forward, which puts you at greater risk of eating a wake-up attack. Or the opponent can tech roll to get out safely. If you're doing this off of a grounded frozen opponent, you might as well go for his B1, 2, 1 combo which has a safer mix-up, more damage and leads to pressure.
28% + 37%= (65 %) Meterless Yes they will be hit for doing nothing or Jumping by a Full Charged (B2) You guys are failing to see the window of opportunity they have to escape this is very limited.​
tech... roll
If your reacting to random combo that's ended with a Proper (D3) and are reacting with a Tech Roll....... Could I not always tap forward once while (B2) is charging and if I see you roll - tap forward or up forward again to follow u up with pressure. ;-)​
I'm a tad confused on why everyone is trying to put me on blast. Im 34 yrs old married with a child while working in a professional career. I'm not looking to de-throne anyone's title or get famous for playing Sub-Zero etc.... I enjoy the game and just trying to level up Sub-Zero.​
~StaticJack​
 

Noble Raptor

Premium
Premium Supporter
No one's putting you on blast. Once your opponent sees that you're going for a B2, they'll just poke out or tech roll. If your opponent tech rolls and you dash cancel forward, your pressure isn't guaranteed due to Sub's slow dash and they can poke you or use a wake-up after tech roll. It's also hard to react to a wake-up attack, dash back and 2, 2 them without it backfiring on you. Wake-up attacks that come to mind that you most likely won't be able to react to and punish are Reptile's Elbow Dash, Johnny Cage's Shadow Kick, and Kung Lao's Spin.
 

Seapeople

This one's for you
1. What's so important about d3? You recover slower using d3, b2~dash cancel than using a simple 21, b2~dash cancel.
2. Opponents with low advancing specials can destroy b2 after a knockdown because you can't immediately dash cancel into crouch block. That's already most of the cast.
3. Opponents can tech roll & walk backward to avoid every possible set up that you can think of, including both b2 & ice puddle shenanigans.

Not putting you on blast, just putting the set up on blast because it has a lot of holes :/
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
Here is the thing. I don't want to put you on blast.... i've been being a dick and I will stop.

This setup has ONE way to work... and that is with your d3. So yes... you may catch someone ONCE. But when he scouts you doing a d3... he KNOWS you are going to do something to the effect of ice puddle or b2. Both moves are easy to "see"... so if I "see" the ice puddle... i simply tech roll and JiP. If I "see" the b2... I tech roll ... if you follow me, I do a delayed wakeup attack... if not I get up for free.

So what is the ... win here? A good player will scout this easily. It isn't like punishing Mileena or scouting Kitana's d1~cutter. This is simply a super gimmick that does a shit ton of damage.
 
I'm going to keep this short because you're not worth my time and you think you're so smart in your video....
1. The moment I see your d3 I'm going to utilize my amazing invincible frames given to me in MK and you will get BLOWN UP with a wake up attack
2. We never said JUMP off the ground because you can't just jump off the ground, we said TECH ROLL into a jip, the tech roll avoids the ice puddle and will get BLOWN UPEdit
3. There is NO set up for ice puddle, if there was a set up for ice puddle then Sub would be UNBEATABLE because you'd never be able to get off the ground.

This should only used on THE rare occasion and NOT end it with the useless d3 which gives away your set up.


.....give it up


I'm closing this thread when I get home for the simple fact that there's already tons of posts about this "set up" there's nothing new here.
The great mod you are, give the guy a break he didn't know.

I'm going to keep this short because you're not worth my time and you think you're so smart in your video....
^^^^^^^^^
BE NICE
 

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
Premium Supporter
Here is the thing. I don't want to put you on blast.... i've been being a dick and I will stop.

This setup has ONE way to work... and that is with your d3. So yes... you may catch someone ONCE. But when he scouts you doing a d3... he KNOWS you are going to do something to the effect of ice puddle or b2. Both moves are easy to "see"... so if I "see" the ice puddle... i simply tech roll and JiP. If I "see" the b2... I tech roll ... if you follow me, I do a delayed wakeup attack... if not I get up for free.

So what is the ... win here? A good player will scout this easily. It isn't like punishing Mileena or scouting Kitana's d1~cutter. This is simply a super gimmick that does a shit ton of damage.
It's not like you should go around using it ALL the time... or as your staple combo/set-up/mix-up ... it's to catch someone off-guard for some extra damage. The same as when you freeze someone with a breaker and go with a B2 mix-up.

It's like during that money match with Pig vs. Brady (CSZ and SZ) and Brady froze him and then cancelled B2 into 214 X-Ray for the win. That's super gimmicky... yet it worked b/c Pig wasn't expecting it. It's a thing to use every once in a while. And if you're playing the same opponent they may know you're going to do something once they see the D3... but that doesn't mean they know you will ice puddle or B2 full or B2 cancel or whatever. It's just a gimmick option.

I think it's fine to point out the holes in it and start a conversation and criticism about it. But there is no need to troll or be an ass or whatever (This isn't addressed to you, but to anyone and everyone in this thread) just b/c you think it's stupid.

I, for one, support anyone trying to come up with something new for Sub-Zero b/c we all know that he fucking needs something! Sure, maybe it's bad... but no need to be an ass guys.
 
Forcing a Reaction

Yet Another Ice Puddle Thread


The bane of Sub-Zero and his Fans…… Ice Puddle is a move that people love to hate. I have been playing around with the Ice Puddle and have found a couple of cool situations that makes this move a little more useful - granted any use is better than none, which is what has happen to it since NRS removed his Ex Reset.

Blown Up” Whiffing an Ice Puddle due to long start up frames, it’s like a greeting card screaming please punish me when you open it. Everyone already knows that on reaction you can jump and do a full punish when Sub-Zero throws out an Ice Puddle. I like so many other Subzero players, we try to condition the player to respect Subzero offense with (B2) cancels to (2, 2) Freeze, cancel to throw, clone, fully charged (B2) and (D4) so on & so on just to sneak a ice puddle in. So here we are…. the other player must respect our Sub-Zeros by now because we have been doing all kinds of fancy cancels with (b2) and dancing around the screen etc….. Well the moment seemed right; we thrown out an Ice Puddle and guess what happens? “Blown the F*** Up on reaction would be correct. Errr F***ing Ice Puddle!

Training in the Lab with Sub-Zero for Final Round- I discovered a couple of things that I thought was a mistake at first. So I set the Training dummy to jump and I worked on imaginary situations in my head. Interestingly enough I found a setup that the player couldn’t jump out of the Ice Puddle on reaction. Wow that’s great an all but what if they do a wakeup attack or tech roll during the same setup? This led to my 2nd discovery; the Ice Puddle does stuff certain wakeup options.






Now we are getting somewhere for sure. Noob Saibot was my first victim….. Shadow upknee, charge and slide all stuffed by Ice Puddle but not the teleport smash. I like the idea of removing some of Noob’s beloved wakeup options and baiting for the teleport smash. In my heads the numbers are starting to shift in Sub-Zeros favor. I reworked my approach to the Noob match up and moved on to the next victim. In my testing Ice Puddle works against a majority of the casts wakeup options but blown up by others. I won’t list all of the whos and whats just yet because discovery is ½ the fun.


But let’s look at Scorpion because his wakeup moves take down and teleport punch both beat the Ice Puddle setup or do they? Forcing a reaction is really what the ice puddle setup is doing. If the player decides to jump or block they are trapped in the puddle reset. Will a scorpion player risk a naked teleport with the potential of a full punish? He might but odds are a skilled scorpion will use the Take down which has the least amount of risk or EX Teleport.

Let’s tackle both options without considering tech roll of the above examples at once. Using the same setup minus the Ice Puddle- instead we (B2) cancel semi dash back to (D3 option select EX-Slide) then if the Ex slide does not come out we held up forward jump punch to (2, 2). IF we guessed right and timed everything right we just beat either both versions of the Take down or started a full punish to an EX teleport on Scorpion. Why would I (B2) cancel off the same Ice Puddle setup........ I will make an example video showing how and why it works at some point maybe but a little secret a (B2 Fully Charged) off of the same setup stuff certain wake up attacks and forces a reaction as well. A mini Vortex inside a Setup etc..

Now people are going to ask/say what about the Tech Roll? That’s a great question but let me answer a question with a question- What about EX-Ice Puddle from the same setup? It gets even more convoluted when thinking of corners and tech rolls ;) Enough talk about this and possible Vortex options at the moment- whats the setup?


End any combo with a proper (D3) to Ice Puddle. The timing is strict but very possible with practice. Make sure to hit the (D3) right before the player hits the ground. When I was learning the timing I would hold down the 3 and negative edge the Ice Puddle motion while letting off of the 3 button. Don’t take my word for it…. Get out there and practice the timing and create your own flow and style with Sub-Zero. I can make a vortex video of Sub-Zero pressure off of the (D3) setup to either Ice puddle or a Full charged (B2) or a canceled (B2) to (2, 2 or 2, 1) or clone or (D4) pressure etc…… but whats fun is that" monkey see monkey do" ?

This is not a be all fix all for Sub-Zero with a 100% success rate. There will always be a risk/reward factor to anything not broken but it is another needed option to force a reaction for Sub-Zero. This is just my way of trying to take Sub-Zero to the next stage of development while leveling up a few on the way.

Thanks for your time,
~StaticJack
Jack please re-upload the vuds