Flash Facts: Matchup Discussion

[TheFutureFlash]

Red Hood is difficult to deal with because of his silly dash and his array of MB gun shots. He also doesn't have the best wakeups, but his b3 is pretty strong and covers a lot of ground. He has the mine so he can get a lot of mixup pressure if he gets you cornered, but he doesn't have the best tools to get out of the corner himself without an interactable. If you have to fight hood with Flash I think its good to go to a map where there isn't an infinite use interactable to allow you to leave the corner because it will make him easier to kill this way. Otherwise he will just dash to the corner, interactable out, dash to other corner, repeat (all the while spamming all kinds of gunshots at you).

Recently, Supergirl is pretty problematic for me as Flash ever since she got her recent buffs. She does great damage, and she seems to have answers for almost everything I try. She can zone you both in the air and on the ground with her lasers. The air ones are difficult because they really negate the RMS, making it harder for you to get in. If you switch to jumping in to get over the lasers, she tends to use the tele while you're in the air so you can' really block it. Once you do get close, if she is smart she will just d1 you first since hers is faster than flash's and reaches farther. You can try to get in the overhead, but its so slow that you are best taking a step back and trying to get in from there. She kind of controls every range and does just about the same damage as flash, if not more. She can get nasty combos in the corner and has good mobility in the air so she can advance on you and there isn't a lot you can do about it since she can also shoot lasers in the air and control that space too.

For Scarecrow I like to space it at the beginning since he doesn't have great full screen pressure. I find the spot where his long overhead chain move will whiff (f3?), and as soon as it does you can punish him with a combo and then back off (his wakeup where he blasts the green gas in front of him is, IIRC, fully invincible so best not to fuck too hard with that. Then he will try the long overhead again or use the tele, so as long as you are away and ready to punish, then he shouldn't be able to get in on you. He has a good neutral game and good reach on his specials, so it is a good idea to keep your distance and play more of a reactionary style. I think with Flash a lot of MU's want you to be the aggressor, but against scarecrow its better to let him come to you since he can just wait for you to get close and do the spinning chain move, or the long overhead chain, etc.

 

[TheFutureFlash]

Fate isn't that bad assuming equal skill levels, if he is really good then you just gotta tip your hat. It's mostly about dealing with the ankh and the wakeup ankh. You can block the trio of energy he sends out to zone, and walk forward so that he can duck them. When you get to the point where they are duckable, then you can enter the RMS to low profile them. I like to toggle the RMS, cancelling and re-entering, to throw off the opponent and then go in when they are thinking that I only want to charge meter. They usually have the damage orb in front of them so its best to go with the slide at the beginning to avoid it altogether. After you do this a few times, however, its best to move to cancelling it right before you get to the DOT orb and block to see how he reacts, from there you have options, you can jump in, you can reenter RMS, you can sonic pound over the DOT orb, etc. Once you get in and get a knockdown, if you bait out the ankhs then there isn't a lot he can do about it and that move is really punishable if it whiffs. Get in and either just block low right off the bat to a j1 to combo, or load up an MB f3. He doesn't really have the burst Flash has, and if you can get in without taking too much damage from the zoning, then he will start to melt like butter.

 

[Killjoy McGee]

Anyone have tips for Ivy? Can't seem to get on the good ivy players online especially with that trait!

 

[jayy_coleworld]

One does not simply body flash

 

[DavesHotnJuicy]

Anyone have tips for Ivy? Can't seem to get on the good ivy players online especially with that trait!

You on ps4?

 

[SMH]

What about the matchups in the first post? I think some can be reviewed

 

[HappyPow]

AM 5-5?
Atom 6-4 (Can't see Atom with any good MUs lol)
Atro 4-6?
GA 5-5?
Red Hood 6-4?
Grodd 5-5?
Joker 5-5?
Firestorm 5-5 OR 4-6?
Darkseid 7-3?
And Raiden 6-4?

 

[SMH]

I think that:

Wins
Grodd, Capitan Cold, Red Hood, Darkseid, Joker, Brainiac

Lose
Aquaman, WW, Robin, SG or Superman (maybe both)
About Atom, Raiden and Firestorm I have doubts

 

[HappyPow]

I think that:

Wins
Grodd, Capitan Cold, Red Hood, Darkseid, Joker, Brainiac

Lose
Aquaman, WW, Robin, SG or Superman (maybe both)
About Atom, Raiden and Firestorm I have doubts

Why you think wins vs Grodd/Brainiac/ Cold and Joker?
Why losing vs Robin/SG/Supes/AM?

 

[Vengeance135]

Why you think wins vs Grodd/Brainiac/ Cold and Joker?
Why losing vs Robin/SG/Supes/AM?

I can't reply for the others but as far as joker is concerned:

flash outdamages joker on an ungodly level

can maneuver around jokers zoning relatively easy and can actually punish jokers zoning with rms headbutt and slide, which could lead to a trait activation with a reactable hit confirm to big damage

has actual ways of opening joker up while joker relies on unsafe gimmicks outside of teeth in the corner example flash can neutral jump canister for a full combo punish on block, can punish crowbar on block if jokers close enough and can punish or dash out strings canceled into teeth all for big damage or better positioning.

Flash has a better corner game.

And realistically if joker loses the life lead flash can literally wait for joker to come to him and with jokers lack of mix up options (outside the corner) and flashes super strong d2 to stop joker from jumping in, joker has to take some serious risks, which if isn't read right, joker loses half his life.

If flash has to chase joker, rms goes under jokers hand gun so you can keep building meter as you move closer and once your in headbutt or slide range you can punish jokers gunshot. Also, as you move closer to joker, your essentially going to corner him which is advantageous positioning for flash.

Flash wins 6-4. A smart joker player, making the right reads (on defense especially) can win but there's a lot of things joker has to carefully use as flash can punish for big damage.

Sorry for the lengthy response lol

 

[HappyPow]

I can't reply for the others but as far as joker is concerned:

flash outdamages joker on an ungodly level

can maneuver around jokers zoning relatively easy and can actually punish jokers zoning with rms headbutt and slide, which could lead to a trait activation with a reactable hit confirm to big damage

has actual ways of opening joker up while joker relies on unsafe gimmicks outside of teeth in the corner example flash can neutral jump canister for a full combo punish on block, can punish crowbar on block if jokers close enough and can punish or dash out strings canceled into teeth all for big damage or better positioning.

Flash has a better corner game.

And realistically if joker loses the life lead flash can literally wait for joker to come to him and with jokers lack of mix up options (outside the corner) and flashes super strong d2 to stop joker from jumping in, joker has to take some serious risks, which if isn't read right, joker loses half his life.

If flash has to chase joker, rms goes under jokers hand gun so you can keep building meter as you move closer and once your in headbutt or slide range you can punish jokers gunshot. Also, as you move closer to joker, your essentially going to corner him which is advantageous positioning for flash.

Flash wins 6-4. A smart joker player, making the right reads (on defense especially) can win but there's a lot of things joker has to carefully use as flash can punish for big damage.

Sorry for the lengthy response lol

I do not agree about the corner game.
Also neither about Joker taking risks by zoning. (If the man does anything while trait is on then blame the player, not the character).
Unsafe gimmicks are kinda too much for me, I am pretty sure Gun backdash or whatever sheet like that are helpful.
Teeth are a pain in the ass and not just even in the corner since Flash has to get in and cannot chip any other ways.
Joker's D2 is insane and somehow just with that he wins the neutral game (Obviously also because he has gun tho).
His jump is really good as well, I do not mean as a way to get in, but as a way to get away from stuff since it is not floaty and is kinda fast.
In this MU his mixups are good enough since most of the time Flash has to get in, hold teeth then joker speaks.
RMS punishes Gun but not teeth. It has to be done on read : RMS before Teeth (Except if the man does that while Flash is already in RMS but then do not blame the character but the player).
I think both of them kill each other on knockdowns. Slight adv for the Joker in the neutral. Raw offense is for Flash but Joker still has a really good defense vs most of Flash stuff, thanks to the parry, beating almost every options except 2 (Lows and Jumps).
Flashes defense is alright vs Joker's Raw offense.
Flash cannot punish crow bar on block except with Super.
Also not every strings into teeth are punishable so if something punishable is done, do not blame the character but the player. After all I am not here saying "OMG Joker beats Flash cause he can punish Lightning kick not held with a full combo punish".
Then the corner is not mandatory a good point in that MU for Flash (Not saying he cannot do his dirty stuff) because of the teeth.
Sounds like a 5-5 to me.

 

[Vengeance135]

I do not agree about the corner game.
Also neither about Joker taking risks by zoning. (If the man does anything while trait is on then blame the player, not the character).
Unsafe gimmicks are kinda too much for me, I am pretty sure Gun backdash or whatever sheet like that are helpful.
Teeth are a pain in the ass and not just even in the corner since Flash has to get in and cannot chip any other ways.
Joker's D2 is insane and somehow just with that he wins the neutral game (Obviously also because he has gun tho).
His jump is really good as well, I do not mean as a way to get in, but as a way to get away from stuff since it is not floaty and is kinda fast.
In this MU his mixups are good enough since most of the time Flash has to get in, hold teeth then joker speaks.
RMS punishes Gun but not teeth. It has to be done on read : RMS before Teeth (Except if the man does that while Flash is already in RMS but then do not blame the character but the player).
I think both of them kill each other on knockdowns. Slight adv for the Joker in the neutral. Raw offense is for Flash but Joker still has a really good defense vs most of Flash stuff, thanks to the parry, beating almost every options except 2 (Lows and Jumps).
Flashes defense is alright vs Joker's Raw offense.
Flash cannot punish crow bar on block except with Super.
Also not every strings into teeth are punishable so if something punishable is done, do not blame the character but the player. After all I am not here saying "OMG Joker beats Flash cause he can punish Lightning kick not held with a full combo punish".
Then the corner is not mandatory a good point in that MU for Flash (Not saying he cannot do his dirty stuff) because of the teeth.
Sounds like a 5-5 to me.

I like the response! Now referring to crowbar on block. It's -9 on block. I've had flash punish me before with that fast forward punch(sorry idk the name lol) and I believe that fury punch thing also punishes it. Now crowbar does have pushback, however, depending on the positioning of how it was blocked, the pushback can be inconsistent and the move can actually be punished by flash.

Also referring to jokers d2 winning the neutral game. It's definitely a useful tool in the MU but saying it wins the neutral is a bit of a stretch imo. With the start up of 12f with 4 active frames and a 27 frame recovery on whiff, that's a pretty big commitment in neutral. Joker can't just recklessly use that as an anti air wirhout fear of being stuffed and with d2 being -17 on block Joker has to commit to canceling it into something. Deathspin is his best option due to it being -7 on block but gives up his turn allowing flash a chance to start pressuring. Canister can be interrupted or ignored with a neutral jump on reaction, crowbar is -9 and raw teeth you can punish on reaction with almost anything. And any string that is canceled can be back dashed safely if you don't know your options on how to combat it. D2 is essentially his only strong tool in neutral.

Now referring to my explanation on gunshot. Gunshot is a 17 frame start up high that has a decent whiff recovery (I can't remember the numbers) but can absolutely be whiff punished by flash using that forward advancing punch special (sorry I can't remember the name). Teeth can also be punished by the same move and once that move is mb, it leads to big damage.

So ofif e were to break down the MU in certain sections:

Neutral: I would say it's 5-5. Both characters don't really have a strong neutral to begin with and as I explained the risks in using d2, the joker player has to respect flash just as much.

Corner: 6-4 flash favor. Joker has great corner setups don't get me wrong but once your opponent knows them, opening your opponent up as joker becomes hard especially if they block the setup and pushblock you away or block the setup up and realize they can start to apply pressure afterwards. His setups can be easy to understand if you know the teeth timing, especially since the game has that thing where his setups can hit unblockable or near perfect frame unblockables. They become high lows or low highs. Jokers setup potential is situational depending on how he got you in the corner in the first place and doesn't net a lot of damage unless joker got a clean hit from a combo starting string. Flash can come at joker in so many ways (ambiguous or not) and half those ways ignore jokers wake up completely and generally 1 touch from flash is like 500 damage into another set up that could potentially kill you which leads me to my next section.

Damage: Flash wins 6-4 easy. This section is pretty self-explanatory. Joker doesn't come close to flashes output. Jokers optimal combo without super is like 500 damage and that has to be a clean jump 2 hit confirm.

Mix up game: Flash wins 6-4
As I stated before, joker has a gimmicky Mix up game outside the corner. Gun dash cancel away nets him a little more time away from flash and those dash cancels can't be abused. Flash players adapt pretty quick and can actually punish a dash cancel.

Full screen joker wins 6-4. This is pretty self-explanatory as well.

And to touch on defense quick, if flash does get the health lead, he can indeed play the lame game with joker. Flash d2 absolutely crushes joker jump ins, joker has a slow easy to neutral jump or whiff punish forward advancing string that's not good and has no real way to safely approach flash. Flash can indeed play a reactionary defensive game and f*** joker up if he has a health lead. Also flashes j1 is a strong tool against jokers air to air, trading with jokers j1 on reaction, beqting jokers 2 and 3 and even trading with jokers jump back 3 (the damage may not be favorable but this could be important knowledge if you are trying to close out a match.)

Overall flash does have the upper hand in most situations imo. Though I do understand flash has to take risks, his risks come with great reward, while jokers risks don't net much reward in comparison to the work he has to put in to get something done. Im not saying it's an overwhelming disadvantage as joker can manage it but flash does have the upperhand.

Great talk and sorry for my insanely long response!

 

[HappyPow]

I like the response! Now referring to crowbar on block. It's -9 on block. I've had flash punish me before with that fast forward punch(sorry idk the name lol) and I believe that fury punch thing also punishes it. Now crowbar does have pushback, however, depending on the positioning of how it was blocked, the pushback can be inconsistent and the move can actually be punished by flash.

Also referring to jokers d2 winning the neutral game. It's definitely a useful tool in the MU but saying it wins the neutral is a bit of a stretch imo. With the start up of 12f with 4 active frames and a 27 frame recovery on whiff, that's a pretty big commitment in neutral. Joker can't just recklessly use that as an anti air wirhout fear of being stuffed and with d2 being -17 on block Joker has to commit to canceling it into something. Deathspin is his best option due to it being -7 on block but gives up his turn allowing flash a chance to start pressuring. Canister can be interrupted or ignored with a neutral jump on reaction, crowbar is -9 and raw teeth you can punish on reaction with almost anything. And any string that is canceled can be back dashed safely if you don't know your options on how to combat it. D2 is essentially his only strong tool in neutral.

Now referring to my explanation on gunshot. Gunshot is a 17 frame start up high that has a decent whiff recovery (I can't remember the numbers) but can absolutely be whiff punished by flash using that forward advancing punch special (sorry I can't remember the name). Teeth can also be punished by the same move and once that move is mb, it leads to big damage.

So ofif e were to break down the MU in certain sections:

Neutral: I would say it's 5-5. Both characters don't really have a strong neutral to begin with and as I explained the risks in using d2, the joker player has to respect flash just as much.

Corner: 6-4 flash favor. Joker has great corner setups don't get me wrong but once your opponent knows them, opening your opponent up as joker becomes hard especially if they block the setup and pushblock you away or block the setup up and realize they can start to apply pressure afterwards. His setups can be easy to understand if you know the teeth timing, especially since the game has that thing where his setups can hit unblockable or near perfect frame unblockables. They become high lows or low highs. Jokers setup potential is situational depending on how he got you in the corner in the first place and doesn't net a lot of damage unless joker got a clean hit from a combo starting string. Flash can come at joker in so many ways (ambiguous or not) and half those ways ignore jokers wake up completely and generally 1 touch from flash is like 500 damage into another set up that could potentially kill you which leads me to my next section.

Damage: Flash wins 6-4 easy. This section is pretty self-explanatory. Joker doesn't come close to flashes output. Jokers optimal combo without super is like 500 damage and that has to be a clean jump 2 hit confirm.

Mix up game: Flash wins 6-4
As I stated before, joker has a gimmicky Mix up game outside the corner. Gun dash cancel away nets him a little more time away from flash and those dash cancels can't be abused. Flash players adapt pretty quick and can actually punish a dash cancel.

Full screen joker wins 6-4. This is pretty self-explanatory as well.

And to touch on defense quick, if flash does get the health lead, he can indeed play the lame game with joker. Flash d2 absolutely crushes joker jump ins, joker has a slow easy to neutral jump or whiff punish forward advancing string that's not good and has no real way to safely approach flash. Flash can indeed play a reactionary defensive game and f*** joker up if he has a health lead. Also flashes j1 is a strong tool against jokers air to air, trading with jokers j1 on reaction, beqting jokers 2 and 3 and even trading with jokers jump back 3 (the damage may not be favorable but this could be important knowledge if you are trying to close out a match.)

Overall flash does have the upper hand in most situations imo. Though I do understand flash has to take risks, his risks come with great reward, while jokers risks don't net much reward in comparison to the work he has to put in to get something done. Im not saying it's an overwhelming disadvantage as joker can manage it but flash does have the upperhand.

Great talk and sorry for my insanely long response!

Full screen is 8-2 because he also has the bombs.
Like I said both kill each other on knockdown "Setups known" or not messing with timings and stuff is still a thing and is better than Flash's setups except from trait (which in that case both are as good as each others).
I honestly do not know what are the ways to block crowbar since it is an OH but I can assure you that Fist of fury does not punish because of the pushback (maybe except in the corner).
If the man does raw Teeth while in range of BF2 when his opponent is waiting for something, do not blame the MU but the player.
Yes D2 makes him win the neutral but also gun/teeth and bombs. Mostly because their threats. Oh and also his Ji3.
Also if something whiffs, do not blame the MU but the player.

Honestly a damaged comparison sounds hella dumb to me because it is not something helping in the MU. Bane and Cheetah have insane dmgs but that is not why they win some MUs.

 

[SMH]

Why you think wins vs Grodd/Brainiac/ Cold and Joker?
Why losing vs Robin/SG/Supes/AM?

Grodd - in the gap 22 you can insert d2, there is a response to wakeup stampeed with bf1. Grodd can not punish overhead, Flash is better in air to air, and d2 well knocks out Grodd jumps. And Flash b2 get at medium distance.

Brainiac - Flash punishes any cancell of normal in a trait and drill. Much stronger in the close game. Only problem is an air game, but it seems to me that I need to risk Brainiac, he will not be able to go to the damage without any risk. Wait for MB divekick and break it. And he has very bad wakeups.

Capitan Cold - I think this is exactly because the Capitan Cold can not long save a meter and a trip because of the nerfed puddle.
In close game Flash is stronger, reward is better. It was harder for me here before the patch.

Joker - @Vengeance135 described everything in detail. I agree.

Aquaman - his trait. he practically does not give a combo. good d2 and normal to win neutral. RMS is difficult to use because of ftd. Maybe it can be reduced to 5-5, but for quite a problem.

Robin - normals on the floor of the screen. I can not beat j3. And in the hole of his DP there is nothing to climb except armor. He does not lose the damage.

Superman/Supergirl - I'm not completely sure here. Superman strains the fact that f23 pressure does not backdash, he does not think about the method of attack in general, so his hitbox is broken at the bottom because d1 constantly wakes because of the animation f23 or just if it costs. It's a bit heavy here.

Supergirl is also straining in the neutral and there is nothing to answer for breathing because there is no normal in 6 frames. She clogs my head with her spam of one and the same, I think more about protection, even when I seized the initiative and spent the combo.

I apologize for the bad english. It will be interesting to hear the answers.

 

[HappyPow]

Grodd - in the gap 22 you can insert d2, there is a response to wakeup stampeed with bf1. Grodd can not punish overhead, Flash is better in air to air, and d2 well knocks out Grodd jumps. And Flash b2 get at medium distance.

Brainiac - Flash punishes any cancell of normal in a trait and drill. Much stronger in the close game. Only problem is an air game, but it seems to me that I need to risk Brainiac, he will not be able to go to the damage without any risk. Wait for MB divekick and break it. And he has very bad wakeups.

Capitan Cold - I think this is exactly because the Capitan Cold can not long save a meter and a trip because of the nerfed puddle.
In close game Flash is stronger, reward is better. It was harder for me here before the patch.

Joker - @Vengeance135 described everything in detail. I agree.

Aquaman - his trait. he practically does not give a combo. good d2 and normal to win neutral. RMS is difficult to use because of ftd. Maybe it can be reduced to 5-5, but for quite a problem.

Robin - normals on the floor of the screen. I can not beat j3. And in the hole of his DP there is nothing to climb except armor. He does not lose the damage.

Superman/Supergirl - I'm not completely sure here. Superman strains the fact that f23 pressure does not backdash, he does not think about the method of attack in general, so his hitbox is broken at the bottom because d1 constantly wakes because of the animation f23 or just if it costs. It's a bit heavy here.

Supergirl is also straining in the neutral and there is nothing to answer for breathing because there is no normal in 6 frames. She clogs my head with her spam of one and the same, I think more about protection, even when I seized the initiative and spent the combo.

I apologize for the bad english. It will be interesting to hear the answers.

Cold nerf is only on puddle, right?
Pre-Patch Puddle wasn't really a thing in the MU anyway IMO.
Stronger in the offense? Idk I see it this way (if he hasn't been nerfed here).
Flash defense sucks vs Cold Offense.
Cold defense is okay vs Flash's defense.
Neutral game is for Cold (better mobility, Advancing move and projectile/wall).
I think Flash kills Cold on knockdown.
Both corner games are good.
Flash can reverse the neutral game (trait) but so does Capt Cold and depending on what it does, he might kill Flash on Knockdowns.
5-5

Brainiac :
Not new, Flash gets mopped in the neutral game.
The fact Brainiac has (I think) a 6f DK is a threat on Flash's offense (Only "guaranteed" stuff is D1 during his pressure, it is a low DK low crushes it) so his defense is okay.
Flash's defense on the other one blows up Brainiac's "offense", no cancels allowed except from S3.
In terms of damages they are both the same : Flash goes for about 30% a bit more without trait while Brainiac goes far beyond.... But Flash catches up with trait in it but again makes no sense to me to compare damages since they are not tools affecting the MU IMO (SG days of shitty damages are gone, now everyone is doing fine).
Flash can indeed reverse the neutral (not new but I'll say it : Trait)
Brainiac has the mobility and kills Flash on knockdown.
Flash kills Brainiac on Knockdown.
(I mean no wakeups allowed from each part).
5-5

Joker, why not... No one holds the truth imo, all debatable ofc still interesting

Grodd :
Flash loses the neutral.
22 having a gap is... the same vs all characters is the roaster, doesn't mean Grodd loses every MUs. They can do 2 stampede, 2 Bounce cancel and even more stuff I guess... Like staggering it lmao (When you'll get hit by a 2 Bounce cancel into 50% then you'll start to think that gaps are good because they're natural baits in games).
Idk what you mean by BF1 stampede on wakeup tho... I guess I gotta learn, might change my mind, tell me my man please.
You cannot get B2 on stampede so idk why you talked about it.
Leap is great... But my man if you play "real" Grodds then they aren't gonna raw leap so you can D2 it lmao
I think most of the people are misunderstanding MUs :
Some are thinking : Because some tools are nullified then I can't do my regular sheet that works vs 50% of the cast SO I lose that because I guess less tools than usual.

VS AM :
Here is the perfect example : Trait? My men, if you cannot combo... then do not, cancel your strings into strings thanks to RMS and the fact you are plus to enjoy the fact that he does take FULL damages thanks to his trait.

MU specifities are the thing. If people are not playing with the specificities (especially with characters that need it like the Flash) then do not blame the MU but blame the player.
(Do not take it personally, it is a statement I am making in general).
SG/Supes : I guess it is both debatable but I'm too lazy to do it rn hahaha.
That was really interesting tho guys! I enjoyed that so far.

 

[Vengeance135]

Full screen is 8-2 because he also has the bombs.
Like I said both kill each other on knockdown "Setups known" or not messing with timings and stuff is still a thing and is better than Flash's setups except from trait (which in that case both are as good as each others).
I honestly do not know what are the ways to block crowbar since it is an OH but I can assure you that Fist of fury does not punish because of the pushback (maybe except in the corner).
If the man does raw Teeth while in range of BF2 when his opponent is waiting for something, do not blame the MU but the player.
Yes D2 makes him win the neutral but also gun/teeth and bombs. Mostly because their threats. Oh and also his Ji3.
Also if something whiffs, do not blame the MU but the player.

Honestly a damaged comparison sounds hella dumb to me because it is not something helping in the MU. Bane and Cheetah have insane dmgs but that is not why they win some MUs.

8-2 Jokers Favor full screen is definitely a stretch. Don't forget that canister is pretty useless because you have phase. Phase literally nullifies both the canister moves and gunshot.

And damage does absolutely matter in the MU seeing how both characters have to take risks to do damage on both offense and defense. Flash is rewarded more significantly for his risks with his damage output from his conversions.

Referring to your comments about the neutral, you can't really blame the player for the tools he has in the MU. For example: using j3 anywhere outside a read in flashes range is pretty stupid seeing how flash is a strong whiff punisher. The same goes with d2 and teeth. Just throwing out teeth in neutral when you can be punished with lightning punches on reaction for big damage is dumb. So basically joker has good neutral tools for this particular MU, however, flash can punish these tools on reaction if he wasn't forced to block them and flashes lightning punches special does have decent strike range and is a 10f start up. Again, saying it's the players fault for trying to start something in neutral when flash has a tool to punish is kind of dumb and to say joker wins the neutral off of moves that flash can easily punish on reaction simply because they are a "threat" isn't really a strong argument. Flash has counters that threaten jokers neutral and can lead to big damage. What would joker do in neutral? Stare at flash and wait for flash to approach? Joker doesn't have a d2 that can be used on reaction, it's not fast enough, therefore he has to make the read and commit to the d2 cancel if the d2 is blocked which gives up his turn.

Therefore imo, the neutral is even.

And referring to crowbar on block, the pushback is sometimes inconsistent, especially in the corner and that's when fists of fury can punish. Not like it happens all the time but it's a good bit of knowledge to have.

I mean I think it's cool we can have this conversation in a respectful manner and at the end of the day, it's all personal opinion.

@SMH did I miss anything you would want to add. @Vex You used to play joker, you want to add anything to my thoughts about the MU?

Sorry again for the lengthy response and I hope it is coherent enough. I can go on tangents sometimes without realizing lol

 

[HappyPow]

8-2 Jokers Favor full screen is definitely a stretch. Don't forget that canister is pretty useless because you have phase. Phase literally nullifies both the canister moves and gunshot.

And damage does absolutely matter in the MU seeing how both characters have to take risks to do damage on both offense and defense. Flash is rewarded more significantly for his risks with his damage output from his conversions.

Referring to your comments about the neutral, you can't really blame the player for the tools he has in the MU. For example: using j3 anywhere outside a read in flashes range is pretty stupid seeing how flash is a strong whiff punisher. The same goes with d2 and teeth. Just throwing out teeth in neutral when you can be punished with lightning punches on reaction for big damage is dumb. So basically joker has good neutral tools for this particular MU, however, flash can punish these tools on reaction if he wasn't forced to block them and flashes lightning punches special does have decent strike range and is a 10f start up. Again, saying it's the players fault for trying to start something in neutral when flash has a tool to punish is kind of dumb and to say joker wins the neutral off of moves that flash can easily punish on reaction simply because they are a "threat" isn't really a strong argument. Flash has counters that threaten jokers neutral and can lead to big damage. What would joker do in neutral? Stare at flash and wait for flash to approach? Joker doesn't have a d2 that can be used on reaction, it's not fast enough, therefore he has to make the read and commit to the d2 cancel if the d2 is blocked which gives up his turn.

Therefore imo, the neutral is even.

And referring to crowbar on block, the pushback is sometimes inconsistent, especially in the corner and that's when fists of fury can punish. Not like it happens all the time but it's a good bit of knowledge to have.

I mean I think it's cool we can have this conversation in a respectful manner and at the end of the day, it's all personal opinion.

@SMH did I miss anything you would want to add. @Vex You used to play joker, you want to add anything to my thoughts about the MU?

Sorry again for the lengthy response and I hope it is coherent enough. I can go on tangents sometimes without realizing lol

8-2 for the joker fullscreen yes. Flash gets nothing from faze to avoid "Canister" (?) except meter build that the joker gets.
Then if he does this he recovers, I am pretty sure, after the Joker.
It means Joker controls how the thing goes.
Crowbar is not punishable except in the corner (Maybe after some of your strings as well, idk) but then blame the guy again for using that instead of the -7 thing in those specific situations.
J3 has a good range, if it whiffs then blame the Joker player for it.
After all I am not here saying "OMG if my RMS F2 (Sonic pound in running man) whiffs I get comboed because MB Gun or whatever".
Flash can play a reaction game whose fault is it? To me, still blame the player.
Reactions/Reads are players things.
Characters stuff are : Tools in this situation vs Tools in this situation
What they do and what they can't.
Example :
BA can dive kick Supes air lasers SO as Supes I do not do air lasers YOLO
Supes can air laser Lightning on reaction SO as BA I do not do Lightning YOLO
Joker has no matter what more useful tools in the neutral than Flash, more threatning tools, from fullscreen to mid range and because of all of that he does win the neutral game.
And even once in : Joker is one of the characters in the game that has an option covering 80% of Flash's offense during his pressure.
Then "Risk/Reward" from Flash is indeed great (when he gets trait in it) but also from Joker since it leads to hard to blockables and stuff.
Then the whatever "boom I give my turn to my opponent"... Dood you gotta do it at some point, you're in versus not in training mode... everybody gives their turns (except Bat maybe haha) even the Flash, especially knowing that the only stuff he can ever do is D12 or D2 since everything else is either too slow either high (except if you do something -8.... But would already be punishable). It means that EVEN at this moment Flash has a read to do : Doing D12 (that might low crushed, depends how minus you are) or D2 to play it "fundamentally" right but gives up his turn straight after OR go for a fake stuff that actually you can interrupt...
Meaning that actually after almost everything you might be able to steal his turn according to what options both characters are going for (Backdash vs Flash's pokes and D1/D2 vs Flash's strings). This is even more true with stuff having pushback on them (since you might not have to worry about the only guaranteed options he uses to have : D1/D2 because their range are not good (for example compared to Joker's D2).

I ain't saying it is a 4-6 (things put raw like that might sound weird to people haha) ... 5-5 seems good to me.
Flash better offense - Joker Offense is okay
Flash worse defense - Joker's defense is slightly better (but encounters one of the best offense)
Flash worse in neutral (No moves he can throw without taking a risk) - Joker has tools he can launch yolo (Gun and cancels/Teeth/ grounded bomb) or better range (Ji3 D3 D2)
Flash loses the zoning war - Joker wins it OBV
Flash kills on knockdown - Joker kills on knockdown (They're both known for that anyway)
Flash plays the reaction game better - Joker doesn't play a reaction game except maybe fullscreen : Bombs vs RMS? Idk but not playing a reaction game anyway.

Btw do not apologize my man. Like I said I do enjoy it. I hope it is the same for you. I might be stubborn tho so if you feel like it tell me then I'll stop
Also "long answers" are better than just "it is like that" imo, you're doing a great job!

 

[Vengeance135]

8-2 for the joker fullscreen yes. Flash gets nothing from faze to avoid "Canister" (?) except meter build that the joker gets.
Then if he does this he recovers, I am pretty sure, after the Joker.
It means Joker controls how the thing goes.
Crowbar is not punishable except in the corner (Maybe after some of your strings as well, idk) but then blame the guy again for using that instead of the -7 thing in those specific situations.
J3 has a good range, if it whiffs then blame the Joker player for it.
After all I am not here saying "OMG if my RMS F2 (Sonic pound in running man) whiffs I get comboed because MB Gun or whatever".
Flash can play a reaction game whose fault is it? To me, still blame the player.
Reactions/Reads are players things.
Characters stuff are : Tools in this situation vs Tools in this situation
What they do and what they can't.
Example :
BA can dive kick Supes air lasers SO as Supes I do not do air lasers YOLO
Supes can air laser Lightning on reaction SO as BA I do not do Lightning YOLO
Joker has no matter what more useful tools in the neutral than Flash, more threatning tools, from fullscreen to mid range and because of all of that he does win the neutral game.
And even once in : Joker is one of the characters in the game that has an option covering 80% of Flash's offense during his pressure.
Then "Risk/Reward" from Flash is indeed great (when he gets trait in it) but also from Joker since it leads to hard to blockables and stuff.
Then the whatever "boom I give my turn to my opponent"... Dood you gotta do it at some point, you're in versus not in training mode... everybody gives their turns (except Bat maybe haha) even the Flash, especially knowing that the only stuff he can ever do is D12 or D2 since everything else is either too slow either high (except if you do something -8.... But would already be punishable). It means that EVEN at this moment Flash has a read to do : Doing D12 (that might low crushed, depends how minus you are) or D2 to play it "fundamentally" right but gives up his turn straight after OR go for a fake stuff that actually you can interrupt...
Meaning that actually after almost everything you might be able to steal his turn according to what options both characters are going for (Backdash vs Flash's pokes and D1/D2 vs Flash's strings). This is even more true with stuff having pushback on them (since you might not have to worry about the only guaranteed options he uses to have : D1/D2 because their range are not good (for example compared to Joker's D2).

I ain't saying it is a 4-6 (things put raw like that might sound weird to people haha) ... 5-5 seems good to me.
Flash better offense - Joker Offense is okay
Flash worse defense - Joker's defense is slightly better (but encounters one of the best offense)
Flash worse in neutral (No moves he can throw without taking a risk) - Joker has tools he can launch yolo (Gun and cancels/Teeth/ grounded bomb) or better range (Ji3 D3 D2)
Flash loses the zoning war - Joker wins it OBV
Flash kills on knockdown - Joker kills on knockdown (They're both known for that anyway)
Flash plays the reaction game better - Joker doesn't play a reaction game except maybe fullscreen : Bombs vs RMS? Idk but not playing a reaction game anyway.

Btw do not apologize my man. Like I said I do enjoy it. I hope it is the same for you. I might be stubborn tho so if you feel like it tell me then I'll stop
Also "long answers" are better than just "it is like that" imo, you're doing a great job!

I mean like I agree with the general break down on the second half of your post. The only parts that I don't agree with is neutral and knockdown. As you said, if the joker player is using the tools wrong, it's the players fault. However that argument can be reversed. If the flash player knew how to counter/punish jokers tools then joker can't just YOLO as you said, seeing how flash is a strong whiff punisher lol. Jokers tools in neutral can be punished by flash on a reactionary basis.

We aren't talking player skill here, we are talking the raw effectiveness of the tools at hand. If both characters were in neutral, within striking distance of each other, joker can't just YOLO teeth, gun, j3 or d2 since flash can punish or whiff punish these options or have the ability to apply pressure if they didn't punish on time. Jokers tools are far from safe lol YOLO would be Adams f12 string into trait cancel. I mean joker could cancel to trait but it's so slow and useless he deserves to get hit with what flash throws after that lmao

On knockdown, joker is only a true threat in the corner and damage in this MU really does matter. One hit from the flash in the corner and your losing 500+ into another Mix up. One CLEAN hit from joker in the corner and you'll lose maybe 380-390 into a potential setup. Joker doesn't have very many plus frame setups so a block can lead to him giving up his turn. Also joker can only open you up with teeth out. Let's say you delayed wake up through teeth, joker just gave up his turn. Flash recovers quick enough to at least get a d1 check on a delayed wakeup and your d1 can lead to dumb damage. The flash doesn't rely on anything else other then his on high low buttons. Joker needs teeth out lol

Also to comment. Jokers offense without teeth is trash lol even canceling his strings into deathspin makes him give up his turn at -7 on block. Every other way joker can open you up on block is way too slow or punishable to the fullest. Now flashes b2 overhead is definitely downplayed in my opinion. I watch tournaments online and see pro players getting hit with this move pretty frequently. You yourself caught quite a few people with it in your games that I saw. If it really was that slow, no one would get hit with it as much as people do.

The fear flash places on players is absolutely real due to his speed and damage potential off of almost any hit confirm.

And to refer to your full screen comments about canisters and phase. Flash recovers quicker after phase then joker does after both canisters UNLESS joker mb them, which is advantageous for you because joker needs meter to stay alive in the MU. Flash realistically needs a one bar and a hit to do great damage. You add trait in there and that's big damage lol

And to refer to jokers j3. It does havegreat range and is indeed an effective option. However, it's not as strong as it was in injustice 1. Jokers hurtbox extended to the tip of the crowbar and any challenging jump attack the same speed will trait and anything faster will crush it (my previous example flashes j1), also flashes d2 crushes jokers jump ins pretty consistently so joker players shouldn't be jumping unless they are making a read.

And I 100% agree with you on stubbornness lmao I myself am stubborn, however my mind can be change if given enough proof. I am always open to stuff I didn't know prior. However, in this particular MU, I'm not sure I can be swayed. I do think flash has the upper hand on joker. I'm not saying it's an insane upper hand, but he definitely does. Of course, that's my opinion.

 

[HappyPow]

I mean like I agree with the general break down on the second half of your post. The only parts that I don't agree with is neutral and knockdown. As you said, if the joker player is using the tools wrong, it's the players fault. However that argument can be reversed. If the flash player knew how to counter/punish jokers tools then joker can't just YOLO as you said, seeing how flash is a strong whiff punisher lol. Jokers tools in neutral can be punished by flash on a reactionary basis.

We aren't talking player skill here, we are talking the raw effectiveness of the tools at hand. If both characters were in neutral, within striking distance of each other, joker can't just YOLO teeth, gun, j3 or d2 since flash can punish or whiff punish these options or have the ability to apply pressure if they didn't punish on time. Jokers tools are far from safe lol YOLO would be Adams f12 string into trait cancel. I mean joker could cancel to trait but it's so slow and useless he deserves to get hit with what flash throws after that lmao

On knockdown, joker is only a true threat in the corner and damage in this MU really does matter. One hit from the flash in the corner and your losing 500+ into another Mix up. One CLEAN hit from joker in the corner and you'll lose maybe 380-390 into a potential setup. Joker doesn't have very many plus frame setups so a block can lead to him giving up his turn. Also joker can only open you up with teeth out. Let's say you delayed wake up through teeth, joker just gave up his turn. Flash recovers quick enough to at least get a d1 check on a delayed wakeup and your d1 can lead to dumb damage. The flash doesn't rely on anything else other then his on high low buttons. Joker needs teeth out lol

Also to comment. Jokers offense without teeth is trash lol even canceling his strings into deathspin makes him give up his turn at -7 on block. Every other way joker can open you up on block is way too slow or punishable to the fullest. Now flashes b2 overhead is definitely downplayed in my opinion. I watch tournaments online and see pro players getting hit with this move pretty frequently. You yourself caught quite a few people with it in your games that I saw. If it really was that slow, no one would get hit with it as much as people do.

The fear flash places on players is absolutely real due to his speed and damage potential off of almost any hit confirm.

And to refer to your full screen comments about canisters and phase. Flash recovers quicker after phase then joker does after both canisters UNLESS joker mb them, which is advantageous for you because joker needs meter to stay alive in the MU. Flash realistically needs a one bar and a hit to do great damage. You add trait in there and that's big damage lol

And to refer to jokers j3. It does havegreat range and is indeed an effective option. However, it's not as strong as it was in injustice 1. Jokers hurtbox extended to the tip of the crowbar and any challenging jump attack the same speed will trait and anything faster will crush it (my previous example flashes j1), also flashes d2 crushes jokers jump ins pretty consistently so joker players shouldn't be jumping unless they are making a read.

And I 100% agree with you on stubbornness lmao I myself am stubborn, however my mind can be change if given enough proof. I am always open to stuff I didn't know prior. However, in this particular MU, I'm not sure I can be swayed. I do think flash has the upper hand on joker. I'm not saying it's an insane upper hand, but he definitely does. Of course, that's my opinion.

D2 can be canceld on block : Not unsafe anymore. = Joker can be YOLO with d2 in neutral.
I am not saying Joker should use gun, I am saying it is a threat = Flash gotta slow down in case of in the neutral.
Teeth are always here anyway in the MU.
D3 Goes further beyond anything Flash can do = Slow down Flash gameplan grounded (need to duck a lot).

Overhead from Flash is Forward 2.
Joker can open you up, he has low starter/OH starter. Special being an OH and another one being delayed low.
Has low Bombs and strings ending with OH.
Low bombs are plus 5 if I remember on block (MB).
Flash has no plus frames from hitting special cancels except Pound and only plus frames from runningman stances are coming from B2string (B22F3 +2 and B22+7) and 11 (+2).
Like i said both of those string should not hit you on block when you give up your turn back or anything since doing that is a gimmick (then Ok, mind games are here but it is on both side and lack of good buttons from Flash gives you the opportunity to steal his turn both during his attack and his defense).
You can say Air to air Flash Ji1 but joker has the same.
His jump being fast makes it harder to anti air as well and makes it good for mobility and way to space (Like with Jump back 3).
You can say anti air his jump 3 because hurtbox extended but you can space your jump, delay 3 then it becomes a mind game and any attempts of anti air an empty jump can lead to a whiff punish from Joker.
Comparing Inj1 and 2 is dumb because they're different games. I am not here saying "OMG hard to get in cause I do not have the Headbutt I could MB".
And by the way, yes it can be challenged, thanks to god, it is versus not training mode. At some point everything can be challenged man, you're not facing sandbags.
Now I am pretty sure teeth are like plus on block : Means you got a 1st mix with teeth (OH+Low, Low+Low Low,OH+Low and so on) then it gives you another opportunity to go for another mix (112 11 low bomb/ 213 21low bomb. Eventually MB bombs to be plus or even just go for raw B1low or B2 OH). And all this is almost guaranteed. If teeth are delayed wakeup then free mix cause you know : No wakeups are coming.
Flash on knockdown is way more basic. Get his setup that is going to lead to a 50/50 (in the best scenario) then you blow the sheet up because if MBpound is made from anything than B2 then it is a gimmick and even if you block it you got a 6f d1. Oh and parry beats everything except low and jumps.

 

[Vengeance135]

D2 can be canceld on block : Not unsafe anymore. = Joker can be YOLO with d2 in neutral.
I am not saying Joker should use gun, I am saying it is a threat = Flash gotta slow down in case of in the neutral.
Teeth are always here anyway in the MU.
D3 Goes further beyond anything Flash can do = Slow down Flash gameplan grounded (need to duck a lot).

Overhead from Flash is Forward 2.
Joker can open you up, he has low starter/OH starter. Special being an OH and another one being delayed low.
Has low Bombs and strings ending with OH.
Low bombs are plus 5 if I remember on block (MB).
Flash has no plus frames from hitting special cancels except Pound and only plus frames from runningman stances are coming from B2string (B22F3 +2 and B22+7) and 11 (+2).
Like i said both of those string should not hit you on block when you give up your turn back or anything since doing that is a gimmick (then Ok, mind games are here but it is on both side and lack of good buttons from Flash gives you the opportunity to steal his turn both during his attack and his defense).
You can say Air to air Flash Ji1 but joker has the same.
His jump being fast makes it harder to anti air as well and makes it good for mobility and way to space (Like with Jump back 3).
You can say anti air his jump 3 because hurtbox extended but you can space your jump, delay 3 then it becomes a mind game and any attempts of anti air an empty jump can lead to a whiff punish from Joker.
Comparing Inj1 and 2 is dumb because they're different games. I am not here saying "OMG hard to get in cause I do not have the Headbutt I could MB".
And by the way, yes it can be challenged, thanks to god, it is versus not training mode. At some point everything can be challenged man, you're not facing sandbags.
Now I am pretty sure teeth are like plus on block : Means you got a 1st mix with teeth (OH+Low, Low+Low Low,OH+Low and so on) then it gives you another opportunity to go for another mix (112 11 low bomb/ 213 21low bomb. Eventually MB bombs to be plus or even just go for raw B1low or B2 OH). And all this is almost guaranteed. If teeth are delayed wakeup then free mix cause you know : No wakeups are coming.
Flash on knockdown is way more basic. Get his setup that is going to lead to a 50/50 (in the best scenario) then you blow the sheet up because if MBpound is made from anything than B2 then it is a gimmick and even if you block it you got a 6f d1. Oh and parry beats everything except low and jumps.

Happy New Year btw lol

So d2 cancels lead to all unsafe options so again joker can't just YOLO d2 in neutral lmao everything I got from what you said about there neutral seems like they are even in the neutral game. If you are going off mind games, that's how the player reacts and deals with pressure.

I was under the impression we are just talking tools in general.

I'll say this again, low canister at the end of a string is a GIMMICK and a slow one at that. You can interrupt it or even neutral jump it so idk why this is even a viable option. The only string you can't interrupt is 21 low canister, but you can react and neutral jump it for a punish so, again, idk how this is a viable option, it's just a gimmick.

If you talk air to air in neutral tactics, the mind games are the same on both sides. You're saying joker can do this or that but if flash knows jokers options, he has the tools to counter so again, their neutral is 5-5.

Jokers D3 is -11 on block, the flash can punish that relatively easy everywhere except the tip of jokers foot. At the tip of jokers foot, you could go for lightning punches to punish or start your approach with your forward advancing string, so again, another risk for joker.

The flash can punish a raw teeth throw on reaction with lightning punches, teeth has an 88 frame start up.

Flashes d2 crushes all of jokers jump ins consistently (the only time you would get stuffed is if you tried to through out your d2 late), even with jokers short jump arc. That gives flash a free combo.

Joker doesn't have any reliable ways to actually punish whiffed jump attacks UNLESS you whiff the jump right in front of him. His f232 string is stationary with no range and doesn't start advancing until it's second part.

Now if we are talking you having to block teeth in neutral (which I'm not sure why you would allow me to throw raw teeth in neutral), the only way jokers strings will be effective is for joker to be RIGHT NEXT TO YOU. 11 strings have absolutely no range whatsoever, 32 is stupid slow and only good for punishing whiffs next to joker, f232 is another slow string ending in unsafe, reactable specials and 21 has no range.

So if in neutral, you allowed me to throw raw teeth while your right next to me and you didn't punish me for doing it, you deserve whatever Mix up comes your way lol

Also 213 is 0 on block and has pushback so you can challenge it with your own buttons or even neutral jump and start pressure if you make the read.

Low canister is indeed +5 on block WITH pushback. The only thing joker can follow up with is b1 and even there you can challenge it with a neutral jump or just take whatever he throws after b1 because everything's negative and easy to react too.

To refer to jokers strings, joker has 1 slow overhead starter that only connects with mb gun and crowbar and 1 low starter that also connects with gun and crowbar. Joker compensating for a delayed wake up, last I checked, someone posted a video on test your might on how you can actually wake up after delaying your wake up and if flash wakes up with fists of fury and joker isn't doing a mb f3, joker gets caught in the animation while flash recovers from teeth pop to start applying pressure on joker.

Also with the exception of b13, joker has NO OVERHEAD starting strings. They could end in overheads but don't lead to anything you can't react to and/or punish with the exception of 113, which can be canceled into easy to react stuff.

So as I said, they are 5-5 in neutral.

Also to refer to your comments on flash vs knockdown characters. Flash has some of the craziest cross up, setup, high damaging conversions in this game lol and joker CANNOT parry ANY move crossing him up EVEN if it's not a jump, and jokers wake up can be stuffed by flash relatively easy. Ask @Friction(I'm sorry I can't remember his tag), but he did it numerous times in our set. For example: Flashes F3 cross up goes over jokers deathspin wake up AND ignores jokers parry and if flash activates tart while jokers in the corner... RIP.

Also, jokers parry is fast but has a lot of recovery on whiff, meaning the risk reward favors you in its use.

And to refer to your comments regarding out of training mode, all of these options and scenarios I've given that flash can do has been done to me by numerous flash players that know how to navigate this MU which is why they think flash wins.

I really don't think we are going to agree here.

Are you on PS4? I would love to hit the lab together and do a thorough breakdown!

 

[HappyPow]

Happy New Year btw lol

So d2 cancels lead to all unsafe options so again joker can't just YOLO d2 in neutral lmao everything I got from what you said about there neutral seems like they are even in the neutral game. If you are going off mind games, that's how the player reacts and deals with pressure.

I was under the impression we are just talking tools in general.

I'll say this again, low canister at the end of a string is a GIMMICK and a slow one at that. You can interrupt it or even neutral jump it so idk why this is even a viable option. The only string you can't interrupt is 21 low canister, but you can react and neutral jump it for a punish so, again, idk how this is a viable option, it's just a gimmick.

If you talk air to air in neutral tactics, the mind games are the same on both sides. You're saying joker can do this or that but if flash knows jokers options, he has the tools to counter so again, their neutral is 5-5.

Jokers D3 is -11 on block, the flash can punish that relatively easy everywhere except the tip of jokers foot. At the tip of jokers foot, you could go for lightning punches to punish or start your approach with your forward advancing string, so again, another risk for joker.

The flash can punish a raw teeth throw on reaction with lightning punches, teeth has an 88 frame start up.

Flashes d2 crushes all of jokers jump ins consistently (the only time you would get stuffed is if you tried to through out your d2 late), even with jokers short jump arc. That gives flash a free combo.

Joker doesn't have any reliable ways to actually punish whiffed jump attacks UNLESS you whiff the jump right in front of him. His f232 string is stationary with no range and doesn't start advancing until it's second part.

Now if we are talking you having to block teeth in neutral (which I'm not sure why you would allow me to throw raw teeth in neutral), the only way jokers strings will be effective is for joker to be RIGHT NEXT TO YOU. 11 strings have absolutely no range whatsoever, 32 is stupid slow and only good for punishing whiffs next to joker, f232 is another slow string ending in unsafe, reactable specials and 21 has no range.

So if in neutral, you allowed me to throw raw teeth while your right next to me and you didn't punish me for doing it, you deserve whatever Mix up comes your way lol

Also 213 is 0 on block and has pushback so you can challenge it with your own buttons or even neutral jump and start pressure if you make the read.

Low canister is indeed +5 on block WITH pushback. The only thing joker can follow up with is b1 and even there you can challenge it with a neutral jump or just take whatever he throws after b1 because everything's negative and easy to react too.

To refer to jokers strings, joker has 1 slow overhead starter that only connects with mb gun and crowbar and 1 low starter that also connects with gun and crowbar. Joker compensating for a delayed wake up, last I checked, someone posted a video on test your might on how you can actually wake up after delaying your wake up and if flash wakes up with fists of fury and joker isn't doing a mb f3, joker gets caught in the animation while flash recovers from teeth pop to start applying pressure on joker.

Also with the exception of b13, joker has NO OVERHEAD starting strings. They could end in overheads but don't lead to anything you can't react to and/or punish with the exception of 113, which can be canceled into easy to react stuff.

So as I said, they are 5-5 in neutral.

Also to refer to your comments on flash vs knockdown characters. Flash has some of the craziest cross up, setup, high damaging conversions in this game lol and joker CANNOT parry ANY move crossing him up EVEN if it's not a jump, and jokers wake up can be stuffed by flash relatively easy. Ask @Friction(I'm sorry I can't remember his tag), but he did it numerous times in our set. For example: Flashes F3 cross up goes over jokers deathspin wake up AND ignores jokers parry and if flash activates tart while jokers in the corner... RIP.

Also, jokers parry is fast but has a lot of recovery on whiff, meaning the risk reward favors you in its use.

And to refer to your comments regarding out of training mode, all of these options and scenarios I've given that flash can do has been done to me by numerous flash players that know how to navigate this MU which is why they think flash wins.

I really don't think we are going to agree here.

Are you on PS4? I would love to hit the lab together and do a thorough breakdown!

Happy new year.
Everything flash does in his offense except RMS cancels are also gimmicks and/or punishable. Doesn't mean he has no options.
Canister is an option among tons of stuff you can do.

D3 might be -11 but with its range and this being a low it means people are forced to duck once in its range. Joker controls the space and speed there.
D2 into DB3 cannot be interrupt (at least by Flash) except with Super so it is safe.

Idk what your are talking about with those F3 crossups vs Parry but I never said "use it".
If you want an answer to F3 "crossup" setups, I'll give it to you. Forward dash
Also man, Blocking is a good answer. All I understand from reading you is that you're so eager to press a button that you get mopped by day 1 stuffs.

Parry is risky OFC THANKS TO GOD AGAIN, what are you saying? You want a parry with 0 recovery fully safe and allows you to interrupt something? Lmao man please give us a chance to fight.
What I said is parry is an answer to 80% of Flash's pressure. It is a fact, period. Some other characters in the cast do not have that and struggle even more vs his offense.

You said no OH starter strings, IDK why.
"Delayed Getup" means no wakeup. If something is done after then you can stuff it. Blame the player for not doing any okies.

I never said Flash didn't have strong setups. I said Joker has better ones. It is true, end of the line.
I said it before, Flash setups is : 1 50/50 then gimmicks while Joker is : 50/50 Hard to blockable then 50/50 potential again or even "pressure" (for example 212 teeth is safe so basicly you can hold pressure, pushblock, try to steal the turn and so on).

Honestly I think you just do not know Flash or the MU enough.
And please man... Joker is one of the best character in the game after a knockdown, stop the downplay. No shame to say, "at this moment my character is good"

Also I do not get why you are talking about "air to airs" honestly. JI1 is the same on both side BUT since joker's jump is faster, it makes it better for him. Ji2 from Flash is completly different from Joker's (Their uses are not the same) and Joker's Ji3 is better (way to control space, plus a billion on block) than Flash's Ji3 (Since Flash Ji3 is basicly his Ji1 but with shitty properties except for the universal Ji3 properties).

To end this, I think that those Flash players that "know" how to navigate in this MU and think that Flash wins never played a truly good Joker or are just used to the gameplan of the people they're facing.
It is the way it is. I can play vs Shitty WoWos that are doing shield in a punishable range... Doesn't change the fact the MU is 7-3 WoWo.
I can play vs irishmantis'Atrocitus with any character, I'll get mop because Irish gameplan beats mine in general. It doesn't mean that Atro wins 7-3 the all cast...

 

[Vengeance135]

Happy new year.
Everything flash does in his offense except RMS cancels are also gimmicks and/or punishable. Doesn't mean he has no options.
Canister is an option among tons of stuff you can do.

D3 might be -11 but with its range and this being a low it means people are forced to duck once in its range. Joker controls the space and speed there.
D2 into DB3 cannot be interrupt (at least by Flash) except with Super so it is safe.

Idk what your are talking about with those F3 crossups vs Parry but I never said "use it".
If you want an answer to F3 "crossup" setups, I'll give it to you. Forward dash
Also man, Blocking is a good answer. All I understand from reading you is that you're so eager to press a button that you get mopped by day 1 stuffs.

Parry is risky OFC THANKS TO GOD AGAIN, what are you saying? You want a parry with 0 recovery fully safe and allows you to interrupt something? Lmao man please give us a chance to fight.
What I said is parry is an answer to 80% of Flash's pressure. It is a fact, period. Some other characters in the cast do not have that and struggle even more vs his offense.

You said no OH starter strings, IDK why.
"Delayed Getup" means no wakeup. If something is done after then you can stuff it. Blame the player for not doing any okies.

I never said Flash didn't have strong setups. I said Joker has better ones. It is true, end of the line.
I said it before, Flash setups is : 1 50/50 then gimmicks while Joker is : 50/50 Hard to blockable then 50/50 potential again or even "pressure" (for example 212 teeth is safe so basicly you can hold pressure, pushblock, try to steal the turn and so on).

Honestly I think you just do not know Flash or the MU enough.
And please man... Joker is one of the best character in the game after a knockdown, stop the downplay. No shame to say, "at this moment my character is good"

Also I do not get why you are talking about "air to airs" honestly. JI1 is the same on both side BUT since joker's jump is faster, it makes it better for him. Ji2 from Flash is completly different from Joker's (Their uses are not the same) and Joker's Ji3 is better (way to control space, plus a billion on block) than Flash's Ji3 (Since Flash Ji3 is basicly his Ji1 but with shitty properties except for the universal Ji3 properties).

To end this, I think that those Flash players that "know" how to navigate in this MU and think that Flash wins never played a truly good Joker or are just used to the gameplan of the people they're facing.
It is the way it is. I can play vs Shitty WoWos that are doing shield in a punishable range... Doesn't change the fact the MU is 7-3 WoWo.
I can play vs irishmantis'Atrocitus with any character, I'll get mop because Irish gameplan beats mine in general. It doesn't mean that Atro wins 7-3 the all cast...

To be honest, I really don't think you know the joker MU. All I did was simply explain a counter to every comment you made and all I got in exchange from you is you think I have know Idea what I'm talking about.

Jokers j3 isn't a billion on block either. It's -1 on block so comments like This, YOLO d2 into cancels making him safe on only one special cancelled makes him -7 which makes it your turn, everything else is interruptable or punishable, not knowing that you can punish or interrupt certain setups and etc really just tell me you aren't familiar with the character.

The ratio of joker players is slim to none in comparison to flash players, especially playing against a good joker. So to be honest, I don't think you have consistently played the MU vs a good joker and when you did you probably got beat, which is understandable if you rarely play the MU.

I've played the flash MU on multiple occasions versus very good flash players and lab a ton of MU's because I have to with my character.

Saying that jokers knockdown game is better then flashes is a pure opinion and honestly, I think you downplay flashes ability.

And the f3 was an example as I said. I'm not going to just randomly wake up dash forward unless I'm making a READ. I was just telling you your options.

Btw I know jokers knockdown game, corner especially, is very dangerous and I won't for a second downplay it. Let's not forget your character can reach 600 off one touch.

The reason I keep bringing up jokers jumps is because you keep acting like flash cant handle them, while and joker jump in can be crushed by flashes d2 easy on reaction lol I mean, come on bro. I never said jokers jump back 3 was bad either but flash has responses to it as well.

All I'm doing is commenting on what you say to me with options and examples as to how to deal.

Im thinking maybe we should stop the conversation because you seemed rather salty in your response and I'm not trying to warrant a negative response from you, just merely have a conversation. We can go in circles with this and honestly, I don't want to.

Everything that you said isn't fact, it's your opinion, especially when it comes to setups end of the line and that's okay, we all have our opinions. I've seen flash video setups, yours included and to say joker has better ones is downplay in my opinion but hey, That's why we discuss.

Your opinion 5-5

My opinion 6-4 flash

If you want to play, add me:

PSN Vengeance135

I have no problem playing you, nor am I scared to lol at the end of the day, it's just a game and our opinions are our own. They aren't facts lol

 

[HappyPow]

To be honest, I really don't think you know the joker MU. All I did was simply explain a counter to every comment you made and all I got in exchange from you is you think I have know Idea what I'm talking about.

Jokers j3 isn't a billion on block either. It's -1 on block so comments like This, YOLO d2 into cancels making him safe on only one special cancelled makes him -7 which makes it your turn, everything else is interruptable or punishable, not knowing that you can punish or interrupt certain setups and etc really just tell me you aren't familiar with the character.

The ratio of joker players is slim to none in comparison to flash players, especially playing against a good joker. So to be honest, I don't think you have consistently played the MU vs a good joker and when you did you probably got beat, which is understandable if you rarely play the MU.

I've played the flash MU on multiple occasions versus very good flash players and lab a ton of MU's because I have to with my character.

Saying that jokers knockdown game is better then flashes is a pure opinion and honestly, I think you downplay flashes ability.

And the f3 was an example as I said. I'm not going to just randomly wake up dash forward unless I'm making a READ. I was just telling you your options.

Btw I know jokers knockdown game, corner especially, is very dangerous and I won't for a second downplay it. Let's not forget your character can reach 600 off one touch.

The reason I keep bringing up jokers jumps is because you keep acting like flash cant handle them, while and joker jump in can be crushed by flashes d2 easy on reaction lol I mean, come on bro. I never said jokers jump back 3 was bad either but flash has responses to it as well.

All I'm doing is commenting on what you say to me with options and examples as to how to deal.

Im thinking maybe we should stop the conversation because you seemed rather salty in your response and I'm not trying to warrant a negative response from you, just merely have a conversation. We can go in circles with this and honestly, I don't want to.

Everything that you said isn't fact, it's your opinion, especially when it comes to setups end of the line and that's okay, we all have our opinions. I've seen flash video setups, yours included and to say joker has better ones is downplay in my opinion but hey, That's why we discuss.

Your opinion 5-5

My opinion 6-4 flash

If you want to play, add me:

PSN Vengeance135

I have no problem playing you, nor am I scared to lol at the end of the day, it's just a game and our opinions are our own. They aren't facts lol

I agree with the last sentence. Ji3 isn't minus 1 = Depending on how high you are (and if on the way down or up) then your jump gets "more adv" on block. I can explain it but honestly, I'm too lazy to explain a mechanic that might be true all over NRS games (and maybe even more games). I can make Ji3 jail so you do not know your character I guess (or mechanics).

"One cancel only making D2 safe and -7 so opponents turn?" You do not know the MU. I just told you up there but I'll make it more clear for you : If Flash cannot punish you with reversal BF1 then NONE of his moves are guaranteed if you are not in D12 range. Plus (for the minus 7 move especially since you're kinda slow to understand) if you are in D12's range then you can backdash to beat it or press if he does any other options (except D2). So not necesserarly your opponent's turn.

Now about setups. All I said was facts. I main Flash, I know how he goes. I play a bit of Joker (What made me lab him was his setups even if I admit my Joker is like Goonie would say "DOGSHEET") and all I said is facts.

Seeing my videos are great, good stuff to know optimal setups and stuff but you can look at it again. 1 setup = 1 50/50 then gimmicks. While Joker has 1 "50/50" + hard to blockable then something guaranteed before.

Then again, when I read you, kinda complaining on the fact that a Jump in can be anti aired, I'm wondering...
You do not want to be able to control the neutral and "give opponents turns" if you use your tools (Nah you want to be plus or whatever??? When you already got a mind game coming from yolo D2?). Do not want to get punished for things done (cf guns or whatever in BF2 range) randomly?
Do not want to hold block or whatever on knockdowns? And do not want to actually take "risks" to get out of situations?
Why are you playing Fighting games online? My guess would be that if you were playing Black Adam, you would be capable to say : "Come on bro : You can punish black magic midscreen".
All I read is like a guide to play wrong or even to believe wrong (Cf.jumps).
And Flash does reach 600 with trait 2 bars I guess (Idk what 600 you're talking about... Supes? Joker? On Darkseid maybe?) Otherwise Joker deals more damages into better setups for sure for the same amount of damages.
Honestly I think you are right, gonna stop here. But yes you are right, I do not know fully the MU tho.

 

[Vengeance135]

I agree with the last sentence. Ji3 isn't minus 1 = Depending on how high you are (and if on the way down or up) then your jump gets "more adv" on block. I can explain it but honestly, I'm too lazy to explain a mechanic that might be true all over NRS games (and maybe even more games). I can make Ji3 jail so you do not know your character I guess (or mechanics).

"One cancel only making D2 safe and -7 so opponents turn?" You do not know the MU. I just told you up there but I'll make it more clear for you : If Flash cannot punish you with reversal BF1 then NONE of his moves are guaranteed if you are not in D12 range. Plus (for the minus 7 move especially since you're kinda slow to understand) if you are in D12's range then you can backdash to beat it or press if he does any other options (except D2). So not necesserarly your opponent's turn.

Now about setups. All I said was facts. I main Flash, I know how he goes. I play a bit of Joker (What made me lab him was his setups even if I admit my Joker is like Goonie would say "DOGSHEET") and all I said is facts.

Seeing my videos are great, good stuff to know optimal setups and stuff but you can look at it again. 1 setup = 1 50/50 then gimmicks. While Joker has 1 "50/50" + hard to blockable then something guaranteed before.

Then again, when I read you, kinda complaining on the fact that a Jump in can be anti aired, I'm wondering...
You do not want to be able to control the neutral and "give opponents turns" if you use your tools (Nah you want to be plus or whatever??? When you already got a mind game coming from yolo D2?). Do not want to get punished for things done (cf guns or whatever in BF2 range) randomly?
Do not want to hold block or whatever on knockdowns? And do not want to actually take "risks" to get out of situations?
Why are you playing Fighting games online? My guess would be that if you were playing Black Adam, you would be capable to say : "Come on bro : You can punish black magic midscreen".
All I read is like a guide to play wrong or even to believe wrong (Cf.jumps).
And Flash does reach 600 with trait 2 bars I guess (Idk what 600 you're talking about... Supes? Joker? On Darkseid maybe?) Otherwise Joker deals more damages into better setups for sure for the same amount of damages.
Honestly I think you are right, gonna stop here. But yes you are right, I do not know fully the MU tho.

Okay I guess I struck a nerve lol my bad. Trying to insult me isn't going to prove your point. I'm not trying to argue or get you salty and I'm trying to the best of my abilities to explain what I'm saying and give an example, while all your trying to do is discredit what I'm saying because you don't agree.

I've been playing fighting games for a very long time, not just NRS fighters either. Tekken, street fighter, blazblue and KOF to name a few. I've been playing injustice since the very first game day 1 and have mained nobody else other then joker. I know this character and his capabilities MUCH better then you do and I would never claim to know more about flash then you do in general.

However, in this MU, I feel you really do lack knowledge. The joker community is pretty dead. People rarely use this character to begin with. Most people that do, aren't that good with him. There are very few that are. The flash community is much bigger then the joker community. More people supporting the character and your community has very strong players.

When I discuss a MU, I discuss tools, how to deal with them and how effective they are vs a REAL player that is skilled with his character and that knows what he's doing in the MU. Before I assess my MU number, I make sure I've played said MU multiple times against multiple people in lengthy sets to make sure I'm not just making an assumption off of one set against 1 player. After I have done all of the above, I then assess the how's and why's with the number at hand.

So now my question to you is what jokers have you played? How long did you play them for? Have you fleshed out all possible options and have you discussed it with an opposing player before you decide what it is?

I do understand block advantage differences on jump attacks and if I'm reading what your saying (ji3 meaning jump in 3), your right, the block advantage is different depending on the arc of the jump in, HOWEVER, you shouldn't be letting a joker jump in on you. THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING. I will say this again... Flashes D2 CRUSHES jokers jump ins on reaction pretty consistently. Also jump in properties and frame advantages of blocked jump ins are indeed dependent on the jump arcs in other fighters, not just in NRS fighters.

D2 into deathspin IS jokers only safe option. THAT IS FACT. Ending with crowbar can be safe depending on the push back. The push back can be inconsistent but I guess that doesn't matter. There is also a gap there. I will say this again since your a bit slow to understand what I'm saying, if you are letting me cancel into low canister or teeth or gunshot and you aren't reacting to punish then THAT'S ON YOU. 212 teeth is safe, however You can challenge any follow up joker wants to make with your d1 and you will beat the option or you can simply just pushblock teeth. If joker is next to you when you pushblock teeth, it doesn't matter what he's doing, it gets nullified and you push him away UNLESS the joker reads the pushblock and bounce cancels or mb f/b3.

Now answer this, what is joker going to do after he makes you block a d2 deathspin (which is -7 on block WITH hardly any pushback), so how is it not your turn? I could possibly backdash but what if you read it? I can't just throw out stuff recklessly and expect no punishment

Also, just a side note, flash can phase through low can and crowbar on most strings for a punish.

And I'm really trying to have an eventful discussion with you so please don't patronize me. If I said something to insult you, it wasn't my intent and for that, I apologize.

 

[TheEspio001]

So is the main chart at the start of this thread still being updated? I thought it was the current popular opinion that Flash beats Red Hood, but that's listed as 4-6 in Red Hood's favour. Also, I thought it was agreed upon that Robin beats Flash 6-4, yet that's listed as 5-5. If it's not being regularly updated, we should probably make a new thread.