Flash Facts: Matchup Discussion

[Zenrage]

Played a little of the Flash vs Dr Fate matchup and I never want to play it again lol. What are you guys doing about glyph? Seems to do it all to stop Flash in his tracks from being safe with pushback to anti airing as well but I'm probably missing something.

Not missing anything really, unfortunately for Flash. You have to treat it like it's Superman's breath pressure and guess the follow up. His F2 can be beat out by 112 or a neutral jump and another DB2 can be beat out with Flash's F2. BF2 can punish both of those as well but if he does nothing he can get a full combo punish, so it's risky. Those are the two options Fates like to use as a follow up from my MU experience. They also like to MB F3, but that you just have to react to with your own MB B3. If they just reset the neutral though, there's nothing Flash can do about it. Best way to actually get in on him is to be at a decent range and make a read on a fireball to MB roll in on him to punish.

 

[doomfarmer]

@Youphemism
Just to add to the Fate matchup, there's a sweet spot. You know when you fight Aquaman and you try to stay juuuust in range to where your bf2 will hit if he does a from the deep? You want to find that range for Fate's glyph. Except you're not doing a reversal you want to get him to just barely whiff it. If you find the right range you'll low profile all his basic projectiles and also be in a good range to whiff punish him. Once you get a knockdown you can bait and whiff punish glyph again, or maybe dash in and cross him up as he wakes up so he whiffs that way as well. Other than that I just curse a lot at the screen. Makes me feel better.

Btw @Zenrage excellent write up over HB's matchup chart

 

[Youphemism]

Not missing anything really, unfortunately for Flash. You have to treat it like it's Superman's breath pressure and guess the follow up. His F2 can be beat out by 112 or a neutral jump and another DB2 can be beat out with Flash's F2. BF2 can punish both of those as well but if he does nothing he can get a full combo punish, so it's risky. Those are the two options Fates like to use as a follow up from my MU experience. They also like to MB F3, but that you just have to react to with your own MB B3. If they just reset the neutral though, there's nothing Flash can do about it. Best way to actually get in on him is to be at a decent range and make a read on a fireball to MB roll in on him to punish.

Ooh didn't think about F2ing between two glyphs, thanks for that.

@Youphemism
Just to add to the Fate matchup, there's a sweet spot. You know when you fight Aquaman and you try to stay juuuust in range to where your bf2 will hit if he does a from the deep? You want to find that range for Fate's glyph. Except you're not doing a reversal you want to get him to just barely whiff it. If you find the right range you'll low profile all his basic projectiles and also be in a good range to whiff punish him. Once you get a knockdown you can bait and whiff punish glyph again, or maybe dash in and cross him up as he wakes up so he whiffs that way as well. Other than that I just curse a lot at the screen. Makes me feel better.

Btw @Zenrage excellent write up over HB's matchup chart

Yeah I'd just curse at my training partner or whine hyperboles like "this is unwinnable", "I have no options for that at all", "this has got to be his worse matchup, this is probably 2-8" lol. I was trying to space it out but you also have to worry about F2 smh

 

[Vengeance135]

@doomfarmer

Or anybody for that matter please explain to me how the Joker/Flash MU is even. I have asked multiple times about this MU and nobody can give me solid (if any) information as to why.

 

[Zenrage]

@doomfarmer

Or anybody for that matter please explain to me how the Joker/Flash MU is even. I have asked multiple times about this MU and nobody can give me solid (if any) information as to why.

I just haven't played the MU enough to say one way or another. Seems like a lot of the Joker community feels Flash wins the MU though from what I've read.

 

[Vengeance135]

I just haven't played the MU enough to say one way or another. Seems like a lot of the Joker community feels Flash wins the MU though from what I've read.

I can't speak for dark but everyone else seems to think that flash beats joker as well. Not just me, we are discussing it right now in discord.

 

[Zenrage]

I can't speak for dark but everyone else seems to think that flash beats joker as well. Not just me, we are discussing it right now in discord.

Does Joker have a semi invincible wake up anymore now that Flower is gone?

 

[Vengeance135]

Does Joker have a semi invincible wake up anymore now that Flower is gone?

Jokers only wake up is parry and that gets stuffed half the time. Not sure if it's supposed to be invincible or not because sometimes it works but I've had plenty of flash players stuff my wakeup attempts.

 

[BrianTheBEAST]

I'm just gonna move my thoughts here on Joker vs Flash.

Joker - Outfoosies flash with mostly D2. Can catch dashes with D1 buffered into crowbar (although kinda difficult). Teeth can be used to temporarily halt movement. These are all benefits on Joker's side.

All the flash needs is 1 opportunity to kill our entire lifebar, and that opportunity can come pretty easily. For example, I mention earlier that D2 outfoosies Flash, However, it's punishable and, even at max range, it gives flash a free jump in into a 50/50. D2 low canister can be jumped out of a full combo punished. D2 teeth is probably the best option at max range (or else it'll be punished with b22 or 112 combo). D2 crowbar is our safest option, which is great, but it's -8 (somewhere around there) and likewise gives flash the opportunity to get his game started up.

Once the Flash is in, he's gonna be there for a while. Running man stance pressure is of course useful against all chars, so I'm not going to simply say it's especially bad for joker. However, I will say that, even if we're lucky to get a D1, the best we can get is D1 crowbar or D1 212 teeth for pressure. On knockdown, Flash can just bully us for days considering we don't have a wakeup. Delayed wakeup can be blown up by a neutral jump 50/50, and backdash can be chased down by F2 or stuffed by D1D2 (the D1D2 has happened to me before, but I haven't tested that in the lab yet with different situations. I will comment again once I test that out).

Let's not forget Flash can shut down most of Joker's offense with D2. Joker has great jump ins, and that's easily anti-aired with Flash's D2. So we're reduced to the ground game....... I already explained the situation with D2. Dash into B1 shouldn't work because Joker has no direct overheads (unless you're talking about our 25 frame B2). Nothing else should work on the highest level.

I hope I've explained the MU well. If you disagree or like to add, please reply!

 

[BrianTheBEAST]

Does Joker have a semi invincible wake up anymore now that Flower is gone?

That's also a crazy big risk to take. Even without the whole stuffing situation, a neutral jump or simply D1D2 will easily blow him up big time for doing that

 

[doomfarmer]

@doomfarmer

Or anybody for that matter please explain to me how the Joker/Flash MU is even. I have asked multiple times about this MU and nobody can give me solid (if any) information as to why.

Man honestly this is one of the 4 matchups (Joker, Cyborg, Brainiac, Swamp Thing) that I have very little experience in outside of random ranked matches. So the 5-5 is pretty much just the default until someone decided to start talking about it. I've played games that felt 5-5 and i've played games that felt 6-4 (Flash favor), and I really don't have an argument either way. Your opinion on the matchup is probably way more informed than mine. Do Joker players have a solid number on that one?

 

[Vengeance135]

I'm just gonna move my thoughts here on Joker vs Flash.

Joker - Outfoosies flash with mostly D2. Can catch dashes with D1 buffered into crowbar (although kinda difficult). Teeth can be used to temporarily halt movement. These are all benefits on Joker's side.

All the flash needs is 1 opportunity to kill our entire lifebar, and that opportunity can come pretty easily. For example, I mention earlier that D2 outfoosies Flash, However, it's punishable and, even at max range, it gives flash a free jump in into a 50/50. D2 low canister can be jumped out of a full combo punished. D2 teeth is probably the best option at max range (or else it'll be punished with b22 or 112 combo). D2 crowbar is our safest option, which is great, but it's -8 (somewhere around there) and likewise gives flash the opportunity to get his game started up.

Once the Flash is in, he's gonna be there for a while. Running man stance pressure is of course useful against all chars, so I'm not going to simply say it's especially bad for joker. However, I will say that, even if we're lucky to get a D1, the best we can get is D1 crowbar or D1 212 teeth for pressure. On knockdown, Flash can just bully us for days considering we don't have a wakeup. Delayed wakeup can be blown up by a neutral jump 50/50, and backdash can be chased down by F2 or stuffed by D1D2 (the D1D2 has happened to me before, but I haven't tested that in the lab yet with different situations. I will comment again once I test that out).

Let's not forget Flash can shut down most of Joker's offense with D2. Joker has great jump ins, and that's easily anti-aired with Flash's D2. So we're reduced to the ground game....... I already explained the situation with D2. Dash into B1 shouldn't work because Joker has no direct overheads (unless you're talking about our 25 frame B2). Nothing else should work on the highest level.

I hope I've explained the MU well. If you disagree or like to add, please reply!

This was clear and concise my dude. There's other things I would like to add but ill just wait.

 

[Vengeance135]

Man honestly this is one of the 4 matchups (Joker, Cyborg, Brainiac, Swamp Thing) that I have very little experience in outside of random ranked matches. So the 5-5 is pretty much just the default until someone decided to start talking about it. I've played games that felt 5-5 and i've played games that felt 6-4 (Flash favor), and I really don't have an argument either way. Your opinion on the matchup is probably way more informed than mine. Do Joker players have a solid number on that one?

Yeah @BrianTheBEAST Just gave a quick summary of why flash wins but if you had anymore thoughts on it just hit us up!

 

[BrianTheBEAST]

Man honestly this is one of the 4 matchups (Joker, Cyborg, Brainiac, Swamp Thing) that I have very little experience in outside of random ranked matches. So the 5-5 is pretty much just the default until someone decided to start talking about it. I've played games that felt 5-5 and i've played games that felt 6-4 (Flash favor), and I really don't have an argument either way. Your opinion on the matchup is probably way more informed than mine. Do Joker players have a solid number on that one?

I'd say 6-4. Reasoning: When both get our offenses started, we can both annihilate each other on knockdown. Joker with his hard to blockables and Flash with his 50/50s. Flash has the option to wakeup with something (although not the best option. it still works). In my opinion, I think a 50/50 is much more effective on knockdown because hard to blockables are still very much blockable with practice (literally just look at a high level Joker mirror). Again that's more opinion. There is however two major differences.

1. How we get our offense started: I already explained how Joker can sometimes hang himself by even using safe options with tools that outfoosie flash (D2 cancels). (which are - and give flash the opportunity to start a 50/50 offense). So the opportunity comes pretty nicely for flash. Joker on the other hand has his air normals completely shut down by flash's D2, and starting up any kind of real offense just on the ground is...... I don't want to say impossible because teeth are always good..... but it's difficult because D2 doesn't really work unless it's max range and I already explained the whole dash B1 situation in my previous post.

2. Damage/Damage potential: Flash hits like a truck. Joker has some good damage too, but definitely not as good as flash (unless we're talking corner).

 

[doomfarmer]

@Vengeance135 @BrianTheBEAST

Sounds good guys, i'll update our chart to 6-4 for now, thanks for the feedback!

 

[Vengeance135]

@Vengeance135 @BrianTheBEAST

Sounds good guys, i'll update our chart to 6-4 for now, thanks for the feedback!

Yeah for sure and if there's something we are missing or can do to help us please share! We will do the same!

 

[Nausea]

Ooh didn't think about F2ing between two glyphs, thanks for that.

Yeah I'd just curse at my training partner or whine hyperboles like "this is unwinnable", "I have no options for that at all", "this has got to be his worse matchup, this is probably 2-8" lol. I was trying to space it out but you also have to worry about F2 smh

And my ears bleed every single Sunday smdh

 

[neveradestroyer]

Definetly not 5-5 imo . Cold is advantaged at nearly every point in the screen and even in close range mb puddle is hell for flash.

Just block the puddle scrubs... gasp!. Did I just told them the secret of beating the O. P. almighty Captain Cold?. ,Yes It can be blocked after being full released. again... Scrubs

 

[doomfarmer]

So with a lot of top tiers getting nerfed, plus our new buffs, our matchup chart should look a little better post patch. Aquaman, Black Adam and Catwoman got normalized pretty good. Deadshot having his up close game nerfed is gonna be great for us too.

Wonder Woman got buffed so that could potentially be our new worst matchup. Cheetah and Canary and gonna be a little more difficult but hopefully will remain 5-5. Doctor Fate could be a bit tougher given that his glyph is even MORE safe, and during his trait he'll be able to combo off mb glyph to get bigger damage. I wonder how good our bf2 buff will be, and if that will be a strong answer to glyph.

Really excited to play this patch.

 

[doomfarmer]

Updated chart to reflect post-patch. A handful of matchups got bumped up. Lots of 5-5s right now. I know it's still new but things are feeling really good in this patch so far. His worst matchups from before are still his worst (WW, Aqua, Arrow) but at this point i'm just accepting this is by design. I think Flash plays really well in most of his MUs and can compete even against his 4-6s. I know there's a few here that I have as 5-5 that people will still argue is a losing matchup (maybe Batman, Harley, Red Hood etc) but hopefully you guys can bring that up in the comments. So yeah check it out, let me know if ya'll think it needs to be adjusted more.

 

[SMH]

I think that bad matches for Flash is: WW, Fate, Deadshot, Green Arrow and maybe Scarecrow/Batman/Capitan Cold.

With Fate, Deadshot and Green Arrow, Flash lags by meter and suffers a lot of chip damage. To get close you need to go for a long time or do a mb roll, which is not beneficial by meter.
WW can zone and from behind the losso becomes very scary on mid range and corner.
Scarecrow is strong with its pressure and long normals
Batman severely limits the trait and can keep a distance.

Good matchup is: Brainiac, Joker, Darkseid, Grodd.
The rest I think is 5-5. It will be interesting to listen to other opinions.

 

[Wigy]

Advise for catwoman?

That low whip is a nightmare.
The j2 is a nightmare
Her backdash is a nightmare

Fuck her

 

[Jugghead]

Updated chart to reflect post-patch. A handful of matchups got bumped up. Lots of 5-5s right now. I know it's still new but things are feeling really good in this patch so far. His worst matchups from before are still his worst (WW, Aqua, Arrow) but at this point i'm just accepting this is by design. I think Flash plays really well in most of his MUs and can compete even against his 4-6s. I know there's a few here that I have as 5-5 that people will still argue is a losing matchup (maybe Batman, Harley, Red Hood etc) but hopefully you guys can bring that up in the comments. So yeah check it out, let me know if ya'll think it needs to be adjusted more.

As a Batman main, I'd vote Batman in favor 6-4. Some previous comments touched on the reason why, and I agree. He can zone out Flash well while building meter, and he's able to get out of Flash's pressure. Even if Batman wants to go in he can compete.

 

[SMH]

Advise for catwoman?

That low whip is a nightmare.
The j2 is a nightmare
Her backdash is a nightmare

Fuck her

Heavy matchup, but I think that here you can still win.
Low whip is punishable with Lighting punches

 

[TheFutureFlash]

I think that bad matches for Flash is: WW, Fate, Deadshot, Green Arrow and maybe Scarecrow/Batman/Capitan Cold.

With Fate, Deadshot and Green Arrow, Flash lags by meter and suffers a lot of chip damage. To get close you need to go for a long time or do a mb roll, which is not beneficial by meter.
WW can zone and from behind the losso becomes very scary on mid range and corner.
Scarecrow is strong with its pressure and long normals
Batman severely limits the trait and can keep a distance.

Good matchup is: Brainiac, Joker, Darkseid, Grodd.
The rest I think is 5-5. It will be interesting to listen to other opinions.

Overall, I think his worst MU's are, in no particular order, Aquaman, Supergirl, GA, WW, Cap Cold, Red Hood, and maybe fate (although I have been feeling that fate is 5-5 personally). After that I think the rest are 5-5 and then there are a few that are positive like Joker, Grodd, Swamp Thing, at 6-4. I think the vast majority of MU's are 5-5, but that is also assuming equal skill levels which happens less often than I think I'd like.

I think when fighting zoning characters with Flash it becomes really important to get the first hit so you get that extra meter. If a zoner gets the first hit, and thus the extra bar, then they can immediately push you full screen by burning meter and begin zoning. If you get the first bar it means you are likely in better screen position, have a meter advantage and are probably the one who is applying pressure rather than receiving it. It goes without saying that while Flash isn't in the worst spot being in a life deficit, he is considerably scarier when he has the life lead and can thus play a bit more aggressively than if he were down in life.

Deadshot doesn't have the best wakeup options (mostly the rising knee move which is punishable) and usually has to be burning meter to keep you out. If you manage to block most of the damage from the zoning its pretty hard for him to get you off of him, especially in the corner. Eventually he will be at even meter or be behind you, you just have to block most of his damage and know he wants to meter burn the gun shots on you at full screen. As well Flash has all the tools he really needs to get in and can get his full combo off of only one or two hit confirms so its just about picking your spots and executing (although, lets face it that is pretty much the life of a Flash main, patience and execution).