Flash Facts: Matchup Discussion

[Mpizz10]

Anyone know strategy for wonder woman? Personally think she might be his worst match up. Great wake ups, lasso, shield, D1 just make it a really tough time

 

[HappyPow]

Anyone know strategy for wonder woman? Personally think she might be his worst match up. Great wake ups, lasso, shield, D1 just make it a really tough time

She is one of his worst

 

[Zenrage]

Batman is feeling like his worst match up the more I play it. The stupid change to how his zoning works just makes it ridiculous. He gets so much more meter now because of it and that meter gives him so many options by the time we do finally get in on him: he can roll out of the corner, he can push block our pressure or he can air escape our combos. If he has bats up he gets to use all that meter he gained on pressure, and he almost always has bats up.

 

[HappyPow]

Batman is feeling like his worst match up the more I play it. The stupid change to how his zoning works just makes it ridiculous. He gets so much more meter now because of it and that meter gives him so many options by the time we do finally get in on him: he can roll out of the corner, he can push block our pressure or he can air escape our combos. If he has bats up he gets to use all that meter he gained on pressure, and he almost always has bats up.

True I felt the same while I was playing @SylverRye LoL He raped me. But I must admit that it feels good to know they took away the throw trait tech
Indeed it is hard for the flash but his D2 is actually super good vs the bat. RMS allows you to go under the batarangs. Having a low starter is great vs parry. I keep thinking that it is either a 5-5 either a 6-4 Bat but not worse because everytime I think about that MU I'm like "we can roll" but when I play... I just forget that mechanic Would be good to have the opinion of other players ^^
@Killer Xinok

 

[Zenrage]

True I felt the same while I was playing @SylverRye LoL He raped me. But I must admit that it feels good to know they took away the throw trait tech
Indeed it is hard for the flash but his D2 is actually super good vs the bat. RMS allows you to go under the batarangs. Having a low starter is great vs parry. I keep thinking that it is either a 5-5 either a 6-4 Bat but not worse because everytime I think about that MU I'm like "we can roll" but when I play... I just forget that mechanic Would be good to have the opinion of other players ^^
@Killer Xinok

His bats seem to shut down a lot of the tools we would have for the match up: can set up his jump ins and can make RMS between batarangs pretty risky. And I just always seem to have a meter deficit. If I try to walk him to the corner, phasing through batarangs to get meter, he gets his bats up. If I push block, I just lost a bar and he's back to zoning. If I roll in, I don't have meter to combo. All the while he always seems to be sitting on meter to roll out of the corner or pressure me back to midscreen, dealing chip and then right back to the zoning. Meh.

 

[SylverRye]

True I felt the same while I was playing @SylverRye LoL He raped me. But I must admit that it feels good to know they took away the throw trait tech
Indeed it is hard for the flash but his D2 is actually super good vs the bat. RMS allows you to go under the batarangs. Having a low starter is great vs parry. I keep thinking that it is either a 5-5 either a 6-4 Bat but not worse because everytime I think about that MU I'm like "we can roll" but when I play... I just forget that mechanic Would be good to have the opinion of other players ^^
@Killer Xinok

Yeah batman beats him for sure. Lets play again soon! I deff think aquaman is WAYYYYYY harder for flash though. Thats prob his worst mu lol

 

[DeftMonk]

Yeah batman beats him for sure. Lets play again soon! I deff think aquaman is WAYYYYYY harder for flash though. Thats prob his worst mu lol

For batman I started labbing something that probably wont ever be useful but in case anyone else was interested just thought Id put it here. I recorded my ass throwing batarangs full screen for a long ass time and would get in on him by RMS f bb RMS inbetween every bat. Its pretty fucking hard but you gain screen position faster than walking /crouch and build meter at same time. Plus you are constantly in rms so it adds to the mind games of rms 1 and after respected rms f bb d1d2 etc.

I am no Happypow/zyphox by any means so apologies if this is a dumb idea lol. I dropped flash within first few days because d1d2 kept giving me RMS but after last patch I am back on the boat.

 

[doomfarmer]

Anyone know strategy for wonder woman? Personally think she might be his worst match up. Great wake ups, lasso, shield, D1 just make it a really tough time

Yeah this one is brutal. The only way I have any success sometimes against her is to play lame as fuck. Basically when the match starts backdash and try to stay outside of her shield throw range as much as you can. You want to constantly RMS cancel over and over to give her the threat of a lightning charge whiff punish, plus you'll build some meter. When she does something you can check, do lightning charge and get your knockdown. From there you can bait her wakeups and do MB b3 or just jump over her on wakeup to bait the whiff. That should be another knockdown for you. Basically the only time you can pressure her is on knockdown. If she's standing you gotta play lame keep away. Awful matchup.

 

[SMH]

What about Flash - Capitan Cold matchup?
Yesterday played with a good player for Сaptain Cold, and was very much limited in his movements due to MB ice puddle. It only remained to save a meter and see how easily it gets a full charge trait, but F3 knocks out his wakeup ice wall. But nevertheless the final score was equal. 5-5 or Capitan favor?

 

[Error404]

What about Flash - Capitan Cold matchup?
Yesterday played with a good player for Сaptain Cold, and was very much limited in his movements due to MB ice puddle. It only remained to save a meter and see how easily it gets a full charge trait, but F3 knocks out his wakeup ice wall. But nevertheless the final score was equal. 5-5 or Capitan favor?

Definetly not 5-5 imo . Cold is advantaged at nearly every point in the screen and even in close range mb puddle is hell for flash.

 

[doomfarmer]

Made a few recent adjustments. If you guys have more input please speak up so we can make this as accurate as possible. I know things will likely change again soon post-balance patch but i'm always around to update as often as I can.

 

[God Confirm]

Made a few recent adjustments. If you guys have more input please speak up so we can make this as accurate as possible. I know things will likely change again soon post-balance patch but i'm always around to update as often as I can.

imo

he beats Atrocitus 6-4, he can't use the cat to stay safe vs Flash which is basically the strength of the character.

he doesn't lose to Deadshot. Deadshot keeps him out, but up close Flash out mixes him and out damages him big time, and its really no harder for Flash to get in than it is for most the cast without a dedicated zoning tool. Flash has a great MB roll so its even easier for him than some.

I think he cleans up Joker quite nicely and absolutely wins vs Brainiac. Not sure how Brainiac is meant to beat him.


that's probably half of what i disagree with but we'll start with that for now

 

[Zenrage]

imo

he beats Atrocitus 6-4, he can't use the cat to stay safe vs Flash which is basically the strength of the character.

he doesn't lose to Deadshot. Deadshot keeps him out, but up close Flash out mixes him and out damages him big time, and its really no harder for Flash to get in than it is for most the cast without a dedicated zoning tool. Flash has a great MB roll so its even easier for him than some.

I think he cleans up Joker quite nicely and absolutely wins vs Brainiac. Not sure how Brainiac is meant to beat him.


that's probably half of what i disagree with but we'll start with that for now

I don't imagine that Flash will still get the free launcher from BF1 after the patch for the Atrocitus match up. I doubt it's working as intended. Even then you still have to block the mix up. Also the active frame and reach of BF2 in neutral completely shuts down Flash's approach.

I agree Flash doesn't lose to Deadshot.

 

[doomfarmer]

Alright I'm with you guys on the Deadshot matchup being even. I had it set at 5-5 early on but bumped it down at some point. Let's bring that back up.

Wb-chan I think the reason you gave that he wins the atrocitus matchup is the reason I have it at 5-5. A lot of characters lose to him atm, but the fact that we have the bf1 trick as well as an awesome d2 to blow up that punchy wakeup he does so much is what gives us enough tools to keep in even. Like zenrage said I think we still have to hold his mixup. Yeah we have one as well but he can start his stuff going at much longer distances. We can dish out safe pressure with rms and atro can go safe with the blood spit move, whatever that this is that has pushback on it. Keeps him safe as well. I dunno, any other reasons you think Flash wins that one?

I'd also like to talk about Fate more. I still feel like it's in Fate's favor. Slightly. Just enough for it to be 4-6. He's got great zoning and great keepout. Placing his orb in the right spot can be a serious obstacle and his glyph has enough pushback that you can't punish it. Plus it sets you back to full screen where you have to eat his zoning again. I know you can bait his wakeups and jump over him or whiff punish him but the same can be said about Aquaman. Again I think those strategies are more "how you play the matchup" and not "why it's an even matchup". I want to be convinced otherwise though, because this obviously could just be lack of matchup experience on my part.

I hope @HoneyBee can chime in on all these numbers at some point.

 

[doomfarmer]

Alright few more changes. I've reduced his number of bad matchups and added a few winning ones. He's now mostly 5-5s across the board. There are a handful of matchups that between TYM and the flash discord I see a lot of debate over, so i'm going to put an asterisk next to the ones that I hope we can figure out together. Thanks guys.

 

[Gafar_NN]

Blue Beatle is 7-3 for flash (bb favor)

 

[God Confirm]

lol

 

[RagingRicans]

Blue Beatle is 7-3 for flash (bb favor)

Nah

 

[Gafar_NN]

Nah

Hah

 

[LEGI0N47]

Yeah this one is brutal. The only way I have any success sometimes against her is to play lame as fuck. Basically when the match starts backdash and try to stay outside of her shield throw range as much as you can. You want to constantly RMS cancel over and over to give her the threat of a lightning charge whiff punish, plus you'll build some meter. When she does something you can check, do lightning charge and get your knockdown. From there you can bait her wakeups and do MB b3 or just jump over her on wakeup to bait the whiff. That should be another knockdown for you. Basically the only time you can pressure her is on knockdown. If she's standing you gotta play lame keep away. Awful matchup.

I'm not so sure on that strategy because that's what WW wants. To chip you and build meter with the shield toss or instant air toss (which are both mids) at a range Flash can't do anything about. Well you can phase a max range one and read closer IA's but either way WW wants to turtle this MU IMO. Executed correctly it's super lame and hard on the Flash so why would the Flash also want to turtle? I understand solid neutral but I read that as stay far away.

You're right on knockdown is the ideal thing to achieve. I also find it hard to deal with him in my face once he gets there. I need to play the MU more myself.

 

[doomfarmer]

I'm not so sure on that strategy because that's what WW wants. To chip you and build meter with the shield toss or instant air toss (which are both mids) at a range Flash can't do anything about. Well you can phase a max range one and read closer IA's but either way WW wants to turtle this MU IMO. Executed correctly it's super lame and hard on the Flash so why would the Flash also want to turtle? I understand solid neutral but I read that as stay far away.

You're right on knockdown is the ideal thing to achieve. I also find it hard to deal with him in my face once he gets there. I need to play the MU more myself.

I hear you man. I could be completely wrong i'm just saying how I personally am able to play the MU. When I say turtle I really mean you HAVE to stay outside her shield range. Like just outside of it so she whiffs it. If you do rms just outside her shield you can lightning charge her as the shield returns to her for a knockdown. That's when you go in and try to bait her wakeups. I agree though if WW chooses to just keep backing up and keeping you out instead of trying to hit you there's almost nothing you can do. I don't know if we'll ever have a good answer for this matchup.

 

[Zenrage]

I hear you man. I could be completely wrong i'm just saying how I personally am able to play the MU. When I say turtle I really mean you HAVE to stay outside her shield range. Like just outside of it so she whiffs it. If you do rms just outside her shield you can lightning charge her as the shield returns to her for a knockdown. That's when you go in and try to bait her wakeups. I agree though if WW chooses to just keep backing up and keeping you out instead of trying to hit you there's almost nothing you can do. I don't know if we'll ever have a good answer for this matchup.

The match up is probably better played within BF2 range. BF2 can punish a blocked shield toss, and if you can duck a whip whenever you can also punish it with BF2, but obviously better players aren't going to be throwing out punishable moves within that range. Just always block low after the first hit to anticipate either whip cancels or MB shield toss to duck the returning and punish.

 

[doomfarmer]

@HoneyBee posted his current Flash MU chart on twitter today. I'll post everything below so we can talk about it, compare it with the chart we've worked on, etc.

Original tweet; https://twitter.com/HoneyBeeCMNDR/status/888020829119946752

(???) means not enough experience but number is how HB thinks it might be

Aquaman 3-7 or 8-2
Atrocitus 4-6
Bane 4-6 or 5-5
Batman 4-6
Black Adam 4-6
Black Canary 5-5 (???)
Blue Beetle 5-5 (???)
Brainiac 5-5 (???)
Captain Cold 5-5 (???)
Catwoman 4-6
Cheetah 5-5
Cyborg 6-4 (???)
Darkseid 5-5
Deadshot 6-4
Doctor Fate 4-6
Firestorm 5-5 (???)
Flash 7-3 in my favor
Gorilla Grodd 5-5 (???)
Green Arrow 4-6 (???)
Green Lantern 5-5
Harley Quinn 5-5
Joker 5-5 (???)
Poison Ivy 5-5
Red Hood 4-6 or 5-5
Robin 5-5
Scarecrow 4-6
Sub-Zero (???)
Supergirl 5-5 (???)
Superman 4-6 or 3-7
Swamp Thing 6-4 (???)
Wonder Woman 3-7

 

[Zenrage]

What I think about his chart:

Aquaman is probably 3-7. Nothing new, his reach is ridiculous, his new frame trap is ridiculous and the fact that he can D2 after trident rush is ridiculous. As bad as it is, I don't think it's 2-8.

Atrocitus is probably 4-6. I know we have the BF1 trick for a free launcher, but I can't see that staying after the patch if they are aware of it. If it does stay I'll think it will be 5-5 at best because of the other tools he has for the match up. He has reach, a great back dash, and his BF2 breath's active frames/recovery all making the neutral a nightmare, and we still have to actually block his mix ups to take advantage of the FoF trick.

Bane is probably 5-5. People like saying it's in our favor, carrying over from IGAU, but we lost LC which did great in the match up, as it was a quick two hitting, launcher. Honeybee probably plays against Biohazard a lot so I figure he has a good grasp on it, but I definitely don't think we lose the match up.

Batman is probably 4-6. I know there has been discussion that it could be 5-5, but I'm in the 4-6 camp. Meter is huge in this match up. We need meter to get in, push block bats, and combo. Even if we phase batarangs and let Bats back himself to the corner, he builds more meter than us and gets more time for trait. The biggest mistake I see Batman players doing, is being impatient if the Flash is just phasing batarangs and going in themselves before they're cornered. If he is determined to lame it up, and wait for us to approach, he has the advantage. He might not have the best wake ups, but between slide, back dash and parry he has the tools to deal with our oki.

Black Adam is probably 5-5. I disagree with the people saying Flash wins the match up, but I also disagree with Honeybee saying we lose the match up. It was interesting though to see that Black Adam was Sonic Fox's choice after losing two straight with Red Hood at EVO. It would be interesting to hear why he feels Flash loses the match up.

Green Arrow is probably 4-6. I don't think it's 3-7, as bad as the Aquaman match up. It was 5-5 in IGAU and the main reason I think it's a losing match up now is because we don't have Lightning Charge to be able to combo punish his DB1, and Green Arrow is also better in this game having new tools and combo capabilities.

Darkseid is probably 5-5. I don't agree with the idea that we win the match up that has been floating around here recently. If the Darkseid actually plays the match up and doesn't go for any unsafe lasers or teleports, the tools Flash has for the match up are negated. Darkseid has mix ups of his own and damage as well, just like Flash. Feels very even to me.

Dr. Fate is probably 4-6. I know there's been discussion about it recently here. I don't agree with the people saying Flash has issues zoners. He will get in eventually. It's interesting that he put Deadshot as 6-4 but I can see it in the future. The reason I think this match up is bad though is because of his MB orb primarily, with his F2 and DB2 as well. His F2 is great space denial and his DB2 is great at creating space. Behind the MB orb he can do whatever he wants and in trait is chip damage is pretty significant if he can trap us behind an orb where we will not be able to duck his projectile.

Superman is probably 5-5 or 4-6 at the worst, definitely not 3-7. I bounce between 5-5 and 4-6. Everyone has their own guessing games after breath pressure but I feel the risk reward is in Superman's favor in the Flash match up. We can't back dash follow up F23 pressure, we can only D2, 112 or FoF, which can be punished by either a slight delay or a neutral jump, both being safe options for Supes even if we don't press buttons. Other than that, the neutral is in his favor.

Wonder Woman is probably 4-6. It's a tough one for sure, but I don't think it's 3-7. We can punish Shield Toss, both grounded and aerial, with BF2 if we're within range and her whip special if we duck it and are within range for BF2 so it's just super footsie intensive. We need to try and walk her to the corner. She has good wake ups so the oki game is tough, but we just have to really capitalize on reversal pressure when we get in.

There's other stuff but those are what stand out based on what we've been discussing in this thread in the past.

 

[Youphemism]

Played a little of the Flash vs Dr Fate matchup and I never want to play it again lol. What are you guys doing about glyph? Seems to do it all to stop Flash in his tracks from being safe with pushback to anti airing as well but I'm probably missing something.