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FEEDBACK TIME: By Wed Oct 10th I will send a video to Ed Boon's twitter

shaowebb

Get your guns on. Sheriff is back.
Great stuff. Keep it coming guys! Especially on Clash and such. I promise I'll push HARD for in depth character trailers we can breakdown so that they can get accurate feedback and generate more hype.
 

Rathalos

Play Monster Hunter!
To be honest I have kinda warmed to the clash mechanic its not super complicated or random, its just kinda odd for a fighting game.
It costs 2 bars to initiate, then you can wager 2 more, the opponent who can bet up to 3 bars and win. its basically just combo breakers that you can sink more meter into to get 20% health back, or punish someone for breaking and forcing them to take even more damage.

The main 3 problems with it.

First the wager is hidden, this I feel is a bad idea, they shouldn't do it this way, instead there should be two bars in the middle of the screen representing each player, and every time you push x you put one bar of meter into your bar and it grows, so you can see how much your opponent spends and you can outbid them.

Two, the cinematic is too long, far too long. There needs to be a tournament mode in the options menu that shortens the clash and the stage transitions. Maybe change the clash to look like a regular combo breaker, but the screen flash's blue and freezes for 4 seconds, and during those 4 seconds you have to think as fast as possible on how much meter to spend.

Three and the most important IMO, meter needs to be useful for other things then just the clash.
The biggest problem I have with breakers in MK9 is how dominate they are, and its not because there strong, but because x-rays and 90% of EX's attacks suck. The only good x-rays are reptiles and kung laos, and the only good EX attacks are the ones that give armor.

Right now the meter game looks better then MK9 though as there is more to do with it.

Roman cancel 2 bars
Heavy attack cancel 2 bars
EX special 1 bar
EX string 1 bar
Clash 2 bars
Super 4 bars

But besides that EX attacks and strings need to be very powerful, they need to be how you do damage, a good example is smokes EX smoke bomb, it does 10% unscaled damage. They need to either add lots of extra damage or let them extend combos. IMO something like meterless combo damage should be around 30%, and if you use 4 bars you could do somewhere around 70-80% damage(that seems high, but you have 2 health bars so basically 200% health).
 

Rathalos

Play Monster Hunter!
To further explain how the clash mechanic works(or how I understand it to work).

There was a post by colt on the forum before TYM that explained it a bit, but it was lost, I think I basically remember it.

Say there is an attacker and a defender, the defender is the one that activates the clash.
The defender has to waste 2 bars to start it, and these two bars do not go towards the amount bet, so if both players have 4 bars, the defender is always at a disadvantage, as if they spend the max amount of meter, the defender will always lose and the attacker will still have 1 bar left over.

A0/D0 No one spends any bars, works just like a combo breaker, position is reset and combo stops.
A1/D1 Same but both players lose a bar of meter
A0/D1 Combo breaks position is reset Defender gains 10% health back
A0/D2 Defender gains 20% health back
A1/D2 Defender gains 10% health back as he only wins by one bar
A1/D0 Combo still breaks and position is reset, but the defender takes an extra 10% damage
A2/D0 Defender takes 20% damage
A3/D0 Defender takes 30% damage
A3/D1 Defender takes 20% damage as he loses by 2 bars
A3/D2 Defender takes 10% damage

There is also a knockdown component, the player who loses the wager is knocked down. If you tie with 1/1 or 2/2 no one is knocked down.
 

IrishMantis

Most humble shit talker ever!!!
To further explain how the clash mechanic works(or how I understand it to work).

There was a post by colt on the forum before TYM that explained it a bit, but it was lost, I think I basically remember it.

Say there is an attacker and a defender, the defender is the one that activates the clash.
The defender has to waste 2 bars to start it, and these two bars do not go towards the amount bet, so if both players have 4 bars, the defender is always at a disadvantage, as if they spend the max amount of meter, the defender will always lose and the attacker will still have 1 bar left over.

A0/D0 No one spends any bars, works just like a combo breaker, position is reset and combo stops.
A1/D1 Same but both players lose a bar of meter
A0/D1 Combo breaks position is reset Defender gains 10% health back
A0/D2 Defender gains 20% health back
A1/D2 Defender gains 10% health back as he only wins by one bar
A1/D0 Combo still breaks and position is reset, but the defender takes an extra 10% damage
A2/D0 Defender takes 20% damage
A3/D0 Defender takes 30% damage
A3/D1 Defender takes 20% damage as he loses by 2 bars
A3/D2 Defender takes 10% damage

There is also a knockdown component, the player who loses the wager is knocked down. If you tie with 1/1 or 2/2 no one is knocked down.
Very informative Breakdown, And i can see this requiring alot of skill, the higher level play will be you know when to just take it, or activate it, or how much you want take from it, predicting the char combo damage, i hope they keep this,,, the only thing is WE get it, but how will other people??
 

Rathalos

Play Monster Hunter!
Very informative Breakdown, And i can see this requiring alot of skill, the higher level play will be you know when to just take it, or activate it, or how much you want take from it, predicting the char combo damage, i hope they keep this,,, the only thing is WE get it, but how will other people??
Super casual players who will only play the story and a bit of online and get there ass kicked probably won't understand it, but they don't need to. Casual fighting game fans might be slightly confused the first couple times it happens, but by the end of there first arcade ladder they should have it down, its not exactly rocket science, though I'm sure there will be some outliers who can barely function as human beings.

Honestly the game just needs a good tutorial mode that goes over all the mechanics, hopefully one that is actually tied into the story mode so everyone does it.
 

shaowebb

Get your guns on. Sheriff is back.
Great breakdown of Clash Rathalos.

On the flipside of this topic, I keep feeling like its a pretty expensive and long mechanic though that's hard to predict during a match due to the blind wager aspect. Generally, comeback mechanics are something that are instant and you have to be able to react after activating them to capitalize off of them to get anything. Breakers require you to act to convert the opening into anything, X-factor requires you to actually manage to hit someone during it to get any of those stat bonuses to help, Mega Crashes in TvC seperated you two and required you to setup some offense in the breathing space they gave lest you end up right back where you started and back in trouble, Just Guards/Counters in other games require you to react and capitolize off the opening they give you on people.

EVERY major comeback mechanic in any other fighter is instant, and requires the player to react to the opening they create to turn that tool into something useful, but Clash does not. Its long, it isn't setup so you have to convert it into something, its a blind wager generally not favoring who does it that you can't strategize for very easily, its expensive, and it favors the person on offense way too much to really be something the defensive party can use easily against them to stage a comeback moment. It also heavily favors high meter build characters on offense and zoners since those characters generally have meter advantage and screen advantage at full screen.

It just comes off as so extremely situational and interruptive and I don't feel casuals will adapt to it easily due to this. If they could use its cinematic elsewhere somehow I'd be okay I guess, but I just don't feel strongly enough that it adds anything that really amounts to a comeback tool to the game.


EDIT: Adam Urbano is on deck for our feedback guys. Thought I'd share that someone at NRS is aware of this video and at least someone there WILL see it now.
@Urbanjabroni Just to let you know I am compiling all kinds of feedback on Injustice for NRS from fans. Video Letter will be sent Wednesday.



I look forward to it. :)
 

Rathalos

Play Monster Hunter!
Yes the blind part and the fact there long(interruptive) is very bad, however if they fix those two things I don't have too much problems with it as whole.

Clash being situational and favoring the attacking player is kinda why I like it actually. Its not something you want to do when you are on the ropes all the time, like an X-factor or Ultras, or Combo breakers, those things are always good and have no real drawbacks(well ultras kinda do in super specific circumstances). In fact I wouldn't even call this a true blue comeback mechanic, its more like a way to potentially balance meter management out, like a meter deterrent, and at first I didn't like this, but that's because I was comparing it too much to MK9 breakers.

Right now the strategy of the clash mechanic doesn't come from actually using it, but from the threat of it, it forces both players to have to think very hard on how there going to spend there meter and if there going to even use the clash or not. It will be very good for mind games, specifically how you use it will vary greatly depending on the amount of health everyone has, the amount of meter, if you want to gain meter and save it to scare your opponent, or use the meter for straight damage, or save your meter to overpowered your opponents clash. The entire pace of the match will be dictated to how much meter everyone has.

This all however depends on how the other meter using abilities work, there needs to be a good push and pull balance between offensive and defensive uses. In MK9 the meter was heavily focused on the defensive aspect, the offensive options just were not good enough for most characters so you would always prioritize breakers, Injustice needs to find a good middle ground where ex attacks, roman cancels and super attacks are always a legitimate tactic and not a waste of meter.

As for the part about it favoring faster meter building characters, I think they need to balance the characters meter building power individually. They sorta dabbled in it with MK9, Quan Chi for some random reason built meter faster then every character. All specials in that game on whiff would build meter equally, 17 or 27 uses would build one bar of meter, depending on the attack, but Quan Chi had an attack that in 12 uses would give him meter. So simply put fast spamable fireballs would give less meter then a dragon punch and so on(should have done this with kabals gas blast and Nomad dash).

All that said though, I'm really only playing devils advocate, if they heavily change the system, or ditch it, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. But ya, with some minor tweaks it could be an interesting mechanic if pulled off right.

It was somewhat hard for me to articulate what I'm trying to say as I'm kinda busying working on something, so I may come back later and describe it a little better.
 

Lumpymoomilk

Online Punching Bag
I'm assuming this game was supposed to be a comic book character game with fighting mechanics, not a fighting game that happens to have comic book characters in it. Maybe that's why I'm cool with these gimmicks, cinematic attacks, stage changes, interactive environments ect.
 

Prinz

watch?v=a8PEVV6tt14
Wonder Woman switches automatically to lasso stance if she gets hit in sword stance. If this has a purpose let NRS explain, if not than it should be removed, since Nightwing doesn't have the same issue with his stances.

Also the starting animation of supers make them useless as offensive tools since they can be blocked right after the animation ends, only useful as counters or in-combo. Maybe make them have start-up like MK x-rays and if they hit, than the animation starts, or if the animation has begun the opponent should freeze so the super will connect.
 

Rathalos

Play Monster Hunter!
Wonder Woman switches automatically to lasso stance if she gets hit in sword stance. If this has a purpose let NRS explain, if not than it should be removed, since Nightwing doesn't have the same issue with his stances.

Also the starting animation of supers make them useless as offensive tools since they can be blocked right after the animation ends, only useful as counters or in-combo. Maybe make them have start-up like MK x-rays and if they hit, than the animation starts, or if the animation has begun the opponent should freeze so the super will connect.
Actually I'm pretty sure he does have the same problem. I can't imagine its intended, its not exactly hard to switch between stances, so its not really a form of punishment.
 
SRK has been praising the game, read the thread. The only bitching I see is just some, skepticism but that's not to a great extent, and it's warranted.

Injustice has the biggest thread in the General Fighting Game section out of all the to be released FGs on there.

http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/injustice-gods-among-us-new-game-by-netherrealm-studios.161289/

70k+ views and 50+ pages of discussion, Injustice is the biggest thread there. Every time there is an Injustice post, the majority of the opinion is vastly positive, aside from the few neckbeard haters that hate for no apparent reason. Generally the FGC is liking it. The combo system from people who've played it they like, they say it flows together well, that each hit feels as if it were meant to be as opposed to MK9.

Screw GameFaqs, and NeoGaf too, those people discuss dumbshit, but on a gameplay level people aside from the average joe/casual are liking it dude.
 

Prinz

watch?v=a8PEVV6tt14
Actually I'm pretty sure he does have the same problem. I can't imagine its intended, its not exactly hard to switch between stances, so its not really a form of punishment.
The Russians said Nightwing doesn't have it.
 

shaowebb

Get your guns on. Sheriff is back.
SRK has been praising the game, read the thread. The only bitching I see is just some, skepticism but that's not to a great extent, and it's warranted.

Injustice has the biggest thread in the General Fighting Game section out of all the to be released FGs on there.

http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/injustice-gods-among-us-new-game-by-netherrealm-studios.161289/

70k+ views and 50+ pages of discussion, Injustice is the biggest thread there. Every time there is an Injustice post, the majority of the opinion is vastly positive, aside from the few neckbeard haters that hate for no apparent reason. Generally the FGC is liking it. The combo system from people who've played it they like, they say it flows together well, that each hit feels as if it were meant to be as opposed to MK9.

Screw GameFaqs, and NeoGaf too, those people discuss dumbshit, but on a gameplay level people aside from the average joe/casual are liking it dude.
Thank you for this. I will be reading and screenshotting a lot of stuff for this so I will pour through that. I hadn't checked back on shoryuken in a few months so I'm glad to see it picked up over there. I can definitely say that GAF is pretty "meh" about the game though. I'm not going to focus on that though. I plan on focusing hard on all these mechanics.

BTW great stuff Rathalos on Clash. I like back and forthing with you and playing devils advocate on both sides of any argument and it seems you do to. That post is one that sums up a lot of how Clash comes across in both positive and negative terms
-meter deterrent (good)
-mind game tool that is useful based on screen position, health, and character (interesting and good)
-interruptive and long (bad)
-not a true comeback mechanic

I want to go into a little discussion at this point with comeback mechanics in the video and mention that good ones are about letting the player create a moment. A moment they rallied back by using their comeback mechanic or defensive option when they were in a bad situation to aid them. All of the good mechanics like this aren't interruptive to gameplay and tend to demand the player still react and use skill even with the mechanic to capitalize from its effects. Everything from breakers to rolls are tools that help create moments, but Clash tends to just be a cinematic and with it being blind there isn't really anything much you can do to strategize and out play folks to create any sort of "moment" type feel or emotional impact from this tool. I'm not gonna push for a bunch of tools to be shoved into the game, I just want to bring up how comeback mechanics work in the games that have done well with them and how they enhance the players ability to create memorable moments and how Clash is currently lacking that factor. They can take that however they wish .
 

insignis

Noob
1)Flash trait slowing time must be redone somehow because right now it gives free block strings of whatever you want and opponent can do nothing but block
2)Grundy must become faster. right now he dashes like an obese kid jumps and all attacks are too slow - he will be raped by any character. especially zoners
3)b3 (present: must be charged to make an arena transition or a bounce off the wall) should become unblockable otherwise it looks useless to me.
 

shaowebb

Get your guns on. Sheriff is back.
1)Flash trait slowing time must be redone somehow because right now it gives free block strings of whatever you want and opponent can do nothing but block
2)Grundy must become faster. right now he dashes like an obese kid jumps and all attacks are too slow - he will be raped by any character. especially zoners
3)b3 (present: must be charged to make an arena transition or a bounce off the wall) should become unblockable otherwise it looks useless to me.
I dunno...an unblockable move that can only be done on offense in the corner? I know it has to be charged making it pretty well unusable in blockstrings, but what about guys like Cyborg who can pop a missile over you head then go for a standing move? Wouldn't it make him get free unblockables? Im not certain if this is possible, but I wanted to play devil's advocate on this.

Also at the urging of the folks here I've decided to just err on the side of discretion so we don't get "kano-d" and instead of urging for a ton of stuff involving character balance I am going to urge for a TON of in depth videos, character breakdowns, matches from QA and combo exhibitions to be shown so we can send them more feedback in the future.

This will NOT be my last video. :)

EDIT: I changed my list to show that I will be holding off and character talk in favor of trying to convince them we need more info so we can give more feedback.
 

insignis

Noob
I dunno...an unblockable move that can only be done on offense in the corner? I know it has to be charged making it pretty well unusable in blockstrings, but what about guys like Cyborg who can pop a missile over you head then go for a standing move? Wouldn't it make him get free unblockables?
the same is with Ermac, Cage and Sub Zero who have charging moves which are unblockable only at FULL charge, no disbalance. in today's build the time you spend to fully charge the move looks quite similar.
to avoid "free unblockable" thing developers can let player stay down like in MK.

anyway I guess if developers are really in touch with competitve players they already understand that at the moment this move is useless and even turtle can block it
 

Prinz

watch?v=a8PEVV6tt14
In this trailer they stated that Wonder Woman would have the ability to deflect anything with her bracelet. Is it still in or is it gone?
 

Rathalos

Play Monster Hunter!
Ok I'm going to complain about something very shallow.

Flash's animations, there bad, really bad, goofy as shit and I hate them.

MK9 had some stiff animations here and there because they mokap shit that probably doesn't need to be mokaped, biggest offenders being Cage and Mileena, but on the whole I think the game looked great and a HUGE improvement over all the PS2 games and MK vs DC, those games look like ass and animate like ass.

So far everyone in Injustice looks and animates great, especially Grundy and Harley, there is still some stiffness when it comes to juggles and laying on the floor and the jumping, but its not too bad.

Flash on the other hand is just gross, its not even that the animation is bad, its just stupid looking. His walking animation, his idle stance, his double kick, most of his normals, his tatsu, and even all of his specials. Everything about him looks like an awkward nerd in a slap fight, none of it has any real sense of speed.
I don't know how much they rely on Mokap, but it seems like a lot, if there is one character they should break that trend with, its the flash, his animations shouldn't look human, they should look fantastical and have super exaggerated effects, like his tatsu should be covered in lightning effects.

Its probably not something there going to change at this point though.
 
I understand voicing concerns about clash, meters, etc. But talking about the viability of characters? Really guys? 3/4 of the cast hasn't even been released yet. How the hell can anyone know if any attack/character is over/under powered? This is absurd.

Remember the Mk demo? Or early videos released? Animations were unfinished or shared, damage scaling was way off, combos were done that upon release were not even possible.

People need to calm down a bit.

Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2
 

Briggs8417

Salt Proprietor of TYM
My only real complaint is the clash system, I don't really understand it too well but I just don't like the idea of burning meter to break and not getting a break. I think everything else is fine and CAN'T WAIT FOR THIS GAME TO COME OUT.

P.S.
Joker for Prez
 

shaowebb

Get your guns on. Sheriff is back.
I'm nearly done quoting all the reactions to things and setting up for recording audio on this guys. I've gathered all the clash reactions on the board I can find for both sides of the argument including a montage of reactions after the Moscow tourney. Stage interactions and stage transitions I only have a couple of people talking on though so unless anyone want to chime in anything now in the next hour or so I'll just sort of be forced to summarize all the varying opinions I've seen here or elsewhere and mention that stage interactions seem to be coming off positive, but with skepticism and that people still hope for vanilla stages that are skeptics or the ability to turn them off. I'm trying to showcase everyone's opinions on this to be fair to everyone here.

Stage transitions have pretty much the same arguments from the quotes I've gotten. Hit me with whatever you got on your mind good or bad on these two things and I'll try to get it in the video. I'll take a break now to let folks post for a bit.
 
For stages, all we want is an option to turn off stage transitions and interactions. I don't like how cyborg shoots a missile on the ground and flash can use the debris as projectiles. Zoning and the wall just feel less of a threat with stage interactions giving mobility.

Hopefully not everyone has a projectile.

And tell them to add an announcer. I know they don't want one but I feel the game would benefit with one than without one. It'd be a good way to add another character who isn't playable. I'd prefer Joker as announcer than an actual playable character; we got enough batman characters.
 

Hanzer0

Wanna order chinese later?
stage transitions are fine with being activated by the aggressor. If they got an offense going (combo) they should be able to decide if they want to move the fight to a more favorable location. It works and the cinematics aren't too long or drawn out either. I wonder if they've put thought into who starts where after a stage transition i.e. aggressor starts near interactable or other way around. I agree there needs to be something in between rounds. Not a cinematic, but just like in MK where loser gets up and winner does a little animation. It looked good in mk.

These are all visual things as I haven't played the game yet.

edit: oh i noticed the frame data at the pause menu, but will we see block/hit advantage and other things like cancel advantage in the practice mode?