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Fatal Blows Are Not Needed In This Game (Proposed Changes)

kcd117

Noob
I don't like the armor on most, and I don't like the dmg some of them do.

Fatal blows are not equally as good, they shouldn't work all the same.

Some are fine. Kano's FB could stay exactly as it is rn for example. It serves the purpose of a combo filler and a punish to poorly spaced projectiles. It doesn't keep you from playing the game like Erron's, it doesn't require you to play extra careful and leaves him in a position to delete you like Jax' does when he hits you.

FBs like Erron's should do 20% at best, and have no armor at all. It is already a 10 frame fullscreen projectile, punishes pretty much every breath your opponent takes, it is already good enough for this reason alone, no need to hit for 1/3 of your life and have armor.

A fatal blow like Jax' should also do a maximum of 20% dmg, and have projectile armor only. It is literally the best move in the game to make a comeback due to the oki it gives you after you hit it, it heats up his arms, travels 3/4 of the screen hella fast... why does it have to delete you and be invulnerable to normals as well??

Idk, I think fatal blows are a good addition to the game in terms of a comeback mechanic that is actually usable unlike 90% of the x-rays. But NRS really missed the mark when they universalized their properties. Imo they should be more unique, some should have armor, some should not, some should have projectile invincibility, some should not, some should do 33% dmg, some should do 25%, some 20%, etc...

Edit: another idea that I know is easily implementable bc it was in injustice, make them do less dmg when their armor is hit. In injustice 2 an MBB3 had armor and did more dmg, if you hit the opponent once when they were performing it the armor would be consumed and it would do the dmg of a regular B3. I'd say reduce their dmg by 30% if the armor is touched, but I'd rather them to take a look at every FB in the game and adjust their properties accordingly.
 
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Ayx

Omnipresent
It's kinda hard. They can't make the move completely useless, but then again it's a free move so it can't be too strong either. I think the QTE minigame behind Fatal Blows are extremely dumb and unnecessary. (and I say this as someone who usually wins their QTEs) but I guess it gives something for them to do while watching a 30 second animation.

30%-33% w/o being combo'd into is borderline fraud. The whole "should cost resources" thing is not what they were aiming for when creating this tool and it's kinda obvious. However if it's a jail out of free card, then the nerf should be:

nerf Fatal Blow (raw) damage to 28%-30% max.
Cooldown is doubled, making having another shot at it extremely difficult to turtle that long when under 30%.
As it's free to use. Increase scaling by at least 3% less than it already does. People (for example Sub Zero) shouldn't be getting a 40%+ combo w/ one Ice Ball guess.
 

Tundra81

Premium
Premium Supporter
Late to the party here and it's already been said but you should only get one chance at FB. If it whiffs or is blocked tough shit, you don't get another chance to use it. It's definitely a frustrating mechanic but it works both ways. I've won a ton of matches with it and lost just as many to it.

On another note saw this a little while back, Jax players lul.
 

DrFolmer

AKA Uncle Kano
Since we already kinda have a Tekken feature, why not make it go away on whiff/block? At least for the current round. So lets say it's round one, im at 30 % with Jax and the opponent has 60%. I wanna do a comeback so I hit him with the fatal knowing I can dash up for a throw and take the round. If the player blocks it (or I whiff it), it should go away for the rest of the round. A lot of the time you dont get to recover it, but some characters like Erron, Cetrion etc kinda get to recharge it again due to their spacing focused playstyles.

It's just tricky because FB Cancelling is one of Johnny's saving graces, this would mean goodbye to that feature as well.
 

RoboCop

The future of law enforcement.
Premium Supporter
They’re just a terrible mechanic, game-design-wise. When certain characters have access, like Jax and EB, it just totally shuts down the match. You can’t press a button, you just have to turtle up until they waste it, only for it to come back a few seconds later. At least Jax’s is punishable, the fact that EB’s is not unless you neutral crouch point blank is total nonsense.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
So this happened playing in KL last night. First time I've truly raged in a little while.

-Set tied 1-1, final round of set.
-Jax just gets FB, both of us about 30% health. I'm cautious for a few seconds.
- I jumped back at range whiffing air1 (on purpose) and he FB, I blocked it and full combo punished him.
-My optimal BNB does 263, so he's still alive. Does roll away, so we reset.
-After a few more seconds of neutral play, I go for stagger, he blocks, he does low poke, I block, I go for D1-Wall BUT WAIT, HIS FB HAD REGENERATED SO HE DID LOW POKE ON BLOCK INTO FB AND HIT ME.
-I lose. After having successfully blocked and punished a FB, only to be hit by the second one that was mashed during negative frames.


Turned it off in pure rage. I hadn't been this upset since like mid-May Scorpion teleport rage.
 
So this happened playing in KL last night. First time I've truly raged in a little while.

-Set tied 1-1, final round of set.
-Jax just gets FB, both of us about 30% health. I'm cautious for a few seconds.
- I jumped back at range whiffing air1 (on purpose) and he FB, I blocked it and full combo punished him.
-My optimal BNB does 263, so he's still alive. Does roll away, so we reset.
-After a few more seconds of neutral play, I go for stagger, he blocks, he does low poke, I block, I go for D1-Wall BUT WAIT, HIS FB HAD REGENERATED SO HE DID LOW POKE ON BLOCK INTO FB AND HIT ME.
-I lose. After having successfully blocked and punished a FB, only to be hit by the second one that was mashed during negative frames.


Turned it off in pure rage. I hadn't been this upset since like mid-May Scorpion teleport rage.
I couldn’t agree with this more. FB was designed the way it was so scrubs aren’t just open season for experienced players. NRS didn’t want casuals to drop MK11 like they did mkx because they were getting mercilessly bodied online. This mechanic makes you play cautiously against even the worst players, built in respect buffer to carry shit players under 30%. The one thing I like about FB is the unbreakable aspect, in endgame being able to hit confirm a combo into FB for an unbreakable kill shot is a valid and respectable mechanic IMO. I think doing FB as a combo extension for unbreakable damage is fine, randomly mashing it mid pressure or in neutral and then having it regen again 7 seconds later needs to go. At least as a combo extension, they still need to open you up traditionally, and you need to make a real mistake. The unbreakable combo extension should be the comeback factor of FB’s not panic mashing it.
 

RoboCop

The future of law enforcement.
Premium Supporter
I couldn’t agree with this more. FB was designed the way it was so scrubs aren’t just open season for experienced players.
I don't know if this is correct. The mechanic is so badly designed that I literally can't figure out what purpose it's supposed to serve. If it's as a comeback mechanic for scrubs, it fails since those same scrubs are more likely to eat a random FB than a high-level player.

To me, it feels like a lazy idea based on the fact that most fighting games have some kind of comeback mechanic, so they just dropped this turd in the game...because.
 
I don't know if this is correct. The mechanic is so badly designed that I literally can't figure out what purpose it's supposed to serve. If it's as a comeback mechanic for scrubs, it fails since those same scrubs are more likely to eat a random FB than a high-level player.

To me, it feels like a lazy idea based on the fact that most fighting games have some kind of comeback mechanic, so they just dropped this turd in the game...because.
Well, if you think about errons FB, for example, Once he gets under 30% how do you play? You basically sit and duck until he does it, because you can get killed for doing anything else. It’s a personal safety bubble in endgame. Any erron player of any skill can sit full screen and pop that off on you if you don’t respect the living hell out it. FB dictates the pace of endgame no matter how good you are.
 

RoboCop

The future of law enforcement.
Premium Supporter
Well, if you think about errons FB, for example, Once he gets under 30% how do you play? You basically sit and duck until he does it, because you can get killed for doing anything else. It’s a personal safety bubble in endgame. Any erron player of any skill can sit full screen and pop that off on you if you don’t respect the living hell out it. FB dictates the pace of endgame no matter how good you are.
Right, but I'm saying that just benefits the high-level players even more. Low-level players aren't known for their patience, nor are they known for enjoying zoning. So this single mechanic requires them to play patiently against an instant, armored, full-screen projectile that does over 30% damage. There's no better way to get a scrub to drop the game.
 

GLoRToR

You're my fan if you can't stop shitposting me.
Simply, because of krushing blows!

Now I know, y'all Johnny players gonna tell me his are ass, and they are, but what I'm proposing is that if NRS gives every character useful KBs and fix some of the ridiculous triggers off of some of them, would we really need fatal blows? I feel like if we would center our gameplan around getting KBs in combos, or out of them, then that would be the only comeback mechanic we would really need. Especially if you cash in on the throw KBs, which every character should have, but I also would propose that they should do less damage.

What do you all think about this?
I don't mind fatal blows as a mechanic, but we need to decide if we want Special Move Fatal Blows like Kabal and Erron, or Normals Fatal Blows like pretty much everyone else. If we're sticking to specials I want Jade's to teleport behind the opponent and whack them in the nut with the staff like ye olden days.
I wouldn't mind them being entirely gone either, tbh. I'm not one to recklessly press buttons so I very rarely get hit by one so yeah.

And yes, Krushing Blows do need fixing too. Some characters get 30% krushing blows into 50% combos with the condition "inhale while you press a button" while Jade's are trash and deal 5% extra damage at best, for example.
 

thlityoursloat

kick kick
So this happened playing in KL last night. First time I've truly raged in a little while.

-Set tied 1-1, final round of set.
-Jax just gets FB, both of us about 30% health. I'm cautious for a few seconds.
- I jumped back at range whiffing air1 (on purpose) and he FB, I blocked it and full combo punished him.
-My optimal BNB does 263, so he's still alive. Does roll away, so we reset.
-After a few more seconds of neutral play, I go for stagger, he blocks, he does low poke, I block, I go for D1-Wall BUT WAIT, HIS FB HAD REGENERATED SO HE DID LOW POKE ON BLOCK INTO FB AND HIT ME.
-I lose. After having successfully blocked and punished a FB, only to be hit by the second one that was mashed during negative frames.


Turned it off in pure rage. I hadn't been this upset since like mid-May Scorpion teleport rage.
Can we just agree that this game isn't even worth touching until FBs get severely nerfed or deleted?
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
I disagree. While I'm not a fan of armored FBs either, that would just make the disparity between them even greater.

Erron would have the best FB by an even greater margin for example.
Hmmm Can you explain? I'm thinking Erron Black already has arguably the best (next to Kabal and Jax), and that's because it's so fast and reaches full screen and he can throw it out in nearly any gap and take a hit safely because of armor then blow you up easily.

If he had no armor, it would be much easier to stuff a yolo FB
 

Xzyj

Noob
I don't mind fatal blows as a mechanic, but we need to decide if we want Special Move Fatal Blows like Kabal and Erron, or Normals Fatal Blows like pretty much everyone else. If we're sticking to specials I want Jade's to teleport behind the opponent and whack them in the nut with the staff like ye olden days.
I wouldn't mind them being entirely gone either, tbh. I'm not one to recklessly press buttons so I very rarely get hit by one so yeah.

And yes, Krushing Blows do need fixing too. Some characters get 30% krushing blows into 50% combos with the condition "inhale while you press a button" while Jade's are trash and deal 5% extra damage at best, for example.
every thread you appear in you're downplaying Jade, stop
 
If the word "respect" doesn't work for you, I'll change it to "play smart" : bait and punish if possible.
You said that you shouldn't have to stop your offense because of the threat of FB. I think you are wrong. If it's the best strategy, do it. It's a clear momentum shift and one you have to accept. You proved your offensive abilities and it's then time to demonstrate your defensive capacities. That's how I see it anyway.
I always play smart. But playing smart means I have to stop what's working and play hard defense so all my hard work doesn't go out the window. It's nothing more than a way for the loser to have a chance. He gets rewarded for playing bad. Damn right it's a momentum shift. If certain variations aren't allowed in ranked then I see no problem with removing fatal blows from ranked either. Players who are confident enough don't need them anyway.
 

seanpon

Noob
I don't like the armor on most, and I don't like the dmg some of them do.

Fatal blows are not equally as good, they shouldn't work all the same.

Some are fine. Kano's FB could stay exactly as it is rn for example. It serves the purpose of a combo filler and a punish to poorly spaced projectiles. It doesn't keep you from playing the game like Erron's, it doesn't require you to play extra careful and leaves him in a position to delete you like Jax' does when he hits you.

FBs like Erron's should do 20% at best, and have no armor at all. It is already a 10 frame fullscreen projectile, punishes pretty much every breath your opponent takes, it is already good enough for this reason alone, no need to hit for 1/3 of your life and have armor.

A fatal blow like Jax' should also do a maximum of 20% dmg, and have projectile armor only. It is literally the best move in the game to make a comeback due to the oki it gives you after you hit it, it heats up his arms, travels 3/4 of the screen hella fast... why does it have to delete you and be invulnerable to normals as well??

Idk, I think fatal blows are a good addition to the game in terms of a comeback mechanic that is actually usable unlike 90% of the x-rays. But NRS really missed the mark when they universalized their properties. Imo they should be more unique, some should have armor, some should not, some should have projectile invincibility, some should not, some should do 33% dmg, some should do 25%, some 20%, etc...

Edit: another idea that I know is easily implementable bc it was in injustice, make them do less dmg when their armor is hit. In injustice 2 an MBB3 had armor and did more dmg, if you hit the opponent once when they were performing it the armor would be consumed and it would do the dmg of a regular B3. I'd say reduce their dmg by 30% if the armor is touched, but I'd rather them to take a look at every FB in the game and adjust their properties accordingly.
Fatal blows like Erron's and Jax's once again proves how inept NRS is at designing their own games. Even Kindergartners know how cheap Jax's fatal blow is considering how fast and far it travels and the fact that it gives you so much Oki. NRS has to have morons to think fatal blows like jax and erron's are ok, whoever designed these fatal blows must have really wanted people to hate MK11
 

seanpon

Noob
I don't mind fatal blows as a mechanic, but we need to decide if we want Special Move Fatal Blows like Kabal and Erron, or Normals Fatal Blows like pretty much everyone else. If we're sticking to specials I want Jade's to teleport behind the opponent and whack them in the nut with the staff like ye olden days.
I wouldn't mind them being entirely gone either, tbh. I'm not one to recklessly press buttons so I very rarely get hit by one so yeah.

And yes, Krushing Blows do need fixing too. Some characters get 30% krushing blows into 50% combos with the condition "inhale while you press a button" while Jade's are trash and deal 5% extra damage at best, for example.
dude not everything in this game revolves around jade... lol. Your making us look bad
 

Afumba

Noob
And previously you might have Xray and your opponent might not? One person still had the advantage. How is that any more fair than in MK11?

Now it's just based on health level rather than your meter gained.



The cost is the FB itself. You land it and it's gone, it ain't coming back. So you got your guaranteed ~32%, but the next round you can't rely on that as your "I win" button. So not only is there a cost, there's also the same risk/reward as the oldschool xray.

And the fact that you're only one combo away from dying. Any decent player can pull off a 25-30% combo in their sleep given the opportunity. Sure there might be a few more buttons to press, but execution is rarely the issue.

The risk/reward has changed from being about meter management in the moment (use meter for an xray or keep it for enhanced specials), to FB management, use it now to win this round, or leave it for the next.

Some of them definitely need to be looked at & tweaked. Changing it so there is a meter cost probably wouldn't be a bad option, but they're not going to drop them, or completely change them to be what an Xray was.
You seem to not understand the difference between something just given to a person for losing(FB) and something you have to build towards (Xray). If you have Xray before the opponent that means either you saved/build meter better or your opponent used his meter for EX/breaker more than you. The FB on the other hand is given to the person who played worse this round first, always. So there was at least a justifiable reason beyond playing bad to why someone has Xray first. There isnt for FB and you are not limited in your AMP/breaker either. So yes, Xray were definitively more fair and earned than FBs.

I would agree with your cost comment if FB was something you had from the start but not if its given for low health. As you said the moment you get it you are probably dead the next combo anyway but now you can end your opponent who has 60++% health in one combo too. If its the last round with both FB still in play how is it fair to put the person who has twice your health in the same spot as you just because you reached a low health treshold first. It isnt. Unless you random it you dont have a risk and your reward is through the roof. And we are still talking about something that you get for being in the lead of losing the round. So FB being its own cost is laughable at best. Even if i agree with you that it is his own cost (which i dont) its not enough. It should have a real cost beyond that.

I also know that they are here to stay and i never said i want them to be Xrays. As stated i hated Xrays as well. But knowing they wont be removed i want a cost that limits the usage of them. Having them cost 2 full offensive Bars for example would remove the FB thread everytime an AMP move is used and reduce the damage of FB combo or have them not be usable in juggles or give them to people from the start or give them different damage numbers for raw/in combo. Anything but how it is now. At least for me.

Anyways to each their own. You like the mechanic and how they implemented them? Happy for you. I am indifferent about FB but i have a problem with how they implemented them. I think its bad.
 
Ok Im going to tell you why I dont think fatal blows will go away.
They're not going away, ever. They will be tweaked, they may even change to use meter, but they are never, ever going away. And it's not because of microtransactions.


So FB being its own cost is laughable at best
How so? You're saying that with it someone can potentially get a 60% combo and take someone out who has twice the life lead. Yet at the same time there is no cost, even though without it they'd never be able to do the same. If they've already played it round1, then they're at a loss because the'll never get that opportunity again. They quite literally could have cost themselves the game because they used it early at the cost of using their FB.

I understand what you're saying about it being given to you rather than earned, but as discussed, it's a one off thing.

With all that said, i still like the idea of it staying as is for the first attempt, then you lose (not use, lose) meter at each subsequent attempt. It won't change the FB meta initially, but it will stop people throwing them out multiple times if they keep missing them.