kantboy-2
Ripper
Ha!your comment of institutional racism being imaginary is several powers more erroneous than your early assessment of Tremor in MKX.
Ha!your comment of institutional racism being imaginary is several powers more erroneous than your early assessment of Tremor in MKX.
Again, Black people are not a monolith. In the South, Black people do indeed swing conservative on many issues. But they don't swing so far right as to vote Republican because they know that the party is openly hostile to them in a myriad of policy positions. Right as we speak, polling places in mostly Black areas have been shut down in Kentucky in a blatant attempt to suppress the vote just as been happening across the South for 5 or so years now. Black people in other metropolitan areas do not support right-wing policies as a general rule, which is why the Republican Party has given up even trying to convince them to vote for their candidates in Presidential elections.Some surveys have shown that African-Americans are one of the most socially conservative groups in America, even more conservative than the average white. If Republicans cared to reach out to black communities, I have no doubt they would acquire more votes. Democrats, on the other hand, are actively campaigning in black communities, as they should. Unfortunately, self-serving democratic politicians have falsely convinced many African-Americans that racism is the cause of all problems in America. They have taken the black vote for granted, and when they sense they may not get the vote, they lash back with racially-charged comments such as "you ain't block unless you vote for me."
I believe you, but you are, again, referring to historical racism, which no sensible person is denying. For example, redlining has been illegal for more than 50 years.
I am interested in the articles and the facts. However, I am not interested is playing identity politics and connecting single every issue to racial injustice. I judge people individually and by the content of their character. While black people have unquestionably suffered more hardships than any group throughout the history of America, any black person is as good as any white, Asian, Latino, or Native-American person. If blacks are given the opportunity to succeed, they can with hard work and perseverance, as seen with many, many successful African-Americans, including the 44th president of the United States.
I would encourage you to read one of Thomas Sowell's books or watch one of his interviews. I am no conservative so I do not agree with everything that he says, but he offers a plethora of curious facts for what he says and believes.
The far left, and even some liberals, believe that Trump is a Russian agent who is serving Putin. I am not interested in either the far left or the far right as both engage in identity politics, which I think is very dangerous.You mentioned President Obama - the only President whom a large segment of the American population believes is a Muslim (not that it matters if he were) and is not an actual American citizen. The main proponent of the latter lie? The current President of the United States, who has made it one of his main missions to undo everything that Obama did in office, whether good or bad. The Iran Nuclear Deal, the Paris Climate Accords, the Trans-Pacific-Partnership (which Trump was actually correct about), and Obamacare are all examples of this. It is not a stretch to presume that Obama's election and re-election directly led Republican voters to vote for Donald Trump; he has enjoyed the largest margins of support from his voter base of any Republican since the 2016 primaries. Not to mention all the instances of racist iconography that was created by extreme far-right voters depicting Obama as a monkey, or hanging from a noose, or targeting his wife Michelle, referring to the most educated First Lady in American history as a mere 'baby-mama'.
As an educator, I agree. Unfortunately, schools in poor cities receive less funding because of low property taxes and hence less money is collected.This isn't merely anecdote - this is a trend across the nation. Schools in poor areas get less funding from taxpayers, thus granting students a much lower standard of education because they often don't even offer Advanced Placement courses, and if they do, it's not as many as richer schools. The students in the poorer schools (mostly Black and Latino) then are held to a lower standard with many more students per class - making the teacher's job much more difficult - and if encouraged to go to college at all, often do not have college programs at the school to assist them with the process.
Yet, those schools always have a strong police presence and metal detectors.
As I already mentioned a handful of pages back, I lived in several countries throughout my life and the fact is that America is the land of opportunity. There is no need to discuss the details again, but my family and I went from being on welfare 20 years ago to enjoying a middle-class life. You also worked hard in school, took advantage of opportunities, and managed to succeed. I would tell this story instead of the "everything about America is racist" one.My point in all this? Systemic racism is not in the past, nor is it lefty propaganda. It is Black peoples' lived experience, especially those that are killed or brutalized by police. Any suggestion otherwise is itself nationalistic prattle that is borne out of American mythology, and not history or fact.
Isn't this just a gross over-simplification of how social mobility works? I am the first in my family with higher education (MSc) - my parents did not finish our equivalent of high school but remained working class throughout their lives. As an adult, I had the option to take loans and go to a good school any time I felt like it, but my surroundings and peers made a damn fine job of hiding this option from me. I was just lucky enough to have a conversation with the right people over vodka telling me that I could redeem my poor high school grades with a introductory year at the university, and if I managed to pull that off I would have access to all the MSc programs of that institution. My parents had no clue about this, my high school had no clue about this, my friends had no clue about this. Interestingly, after getting my degree in computer science and now mingling with people that get good pay, I also find out about all these other key habits that enable making a well-above average living that none of my friends or their parents ever had a clue about because they were occupied working night shifts as nurses or breaking their backs in quarries. I sincerely believe people need to be humble about what tools they were given in life when comparing themselves to others (me included, I consider myself extremely lucky - I won the lotto).land of opportunity --> middle-class life
I am not certain what you mean. I was briefly recounting my story as an immigrant who experienced some social mobility. I excluded all the details because I am not writing an autobiography and/or a guide on how to attain upward social mobility.Isn't this just a gross over-simplification of how social mobility works?
There are a million factors to consider, one of which may or may not be race, so I cannot answer your question. Besides, from what Mrapchem has posted, he is significantly more successful than I am. I never took any AP classes in high school. LOL. I graduated a little bit late from college at the age of 27.I just want to say this is easily the most well-articulated and informative debate I've EVER seen come about on this forum.
@M2Dave Here's a hypothetical question that goes to @mrapchem 's overall point: in your travels in life and going from poverty to relative comfort, do you think you would've had the same level of success if you were black?
That's a reasonable assessment. Economic disparity has always been and will always be the biggest root under the tree, even more so than institutional racism.I think if there is any "gross over-simplification" in this thread, it is that all inequities in America can only be attributed to racism and discrimination.
Yeah, I might've misinterpreted it as an attempt at some kind of anecdotal evidence?? Not my intention to stir shit.I was briefly recounting my story as an immigrant who experienced some social mobility.
I lived a year in the rural midwest, and damn if I didn't see some J.G. Ballard levels of economical segregation when roaming about. Like, gated communities on hills surrounded by trailer parks. Of course there's shit like that all over the world, not just in the US.inequities in America
It certainly can be done, but to me the question is are these success stories the "normal" or default, or are they the outlier? How much Socioeconomic mobility is there in the US, how does it compare to other countries, and what is it looking like over time?My mom grew up so fucking poor that she shared one pair of jeans with two sisters. She got good grades in high school, wasn't a dumb fuck, got a masters degree, 30 years later has a comfortable living. Not everyone has the intelligence, support system, or drive to rise above their circumstances but it can be done.
I think partially but theres a couple things here. Not everyone is as smart or driven as each other. Everyone has to go through high school, if you get decent grades, you have a shot at college, especially for minorities due to unique opportunities to help them financially (not arguing against this, its a good thing, and crucial for the aforementioned Native Americans from earlier in this thread). As Dave pointed out, career choice. People are getting fucking useless degrees when if they would go into technology, engineering, or health sciences, there would be a plethora of jobs. I think getting decent grades in HS, graduating HS, not going for a stupid ass degree and wasting your money in college OR just going into a trade because there are plenty of meaningful jobs otherwise.... and the big one: my mom didn't get knocked up. She didn't have a child before she was financially stable. My dad didn't have a kid till he could afford the financial burden. I think the historically high single motherhood (USA has the highest in the world) rates nation wide is what keeps people from moving up. Accepting that enormous financial burden before ready is insane.It certainly can be done, but to me the question is are these success stories the "normal" or default, or are they the outlier? How much Socioeconomic mobility is there in the US, how does it compare to other countries, and what is it looking like over time?
I think income inequality plays a large part in decreasing socioeconomic mobility, and in turn I think racism and institutional racism plays a large part in income inequality.
All good things. Working hard and making good decisions is always optimal. However, I think there are plenty examples where doing those things isn't enough, and also plenty of examples where the wealth your family currently has plays as much or an even bigger role than those things.TL;DR:
- Get at least decent grades
- Go to school or receive training for a real job that actually exists
- Wrap your shit or don't let a degenerate nut in you. And if pro choice that makes it even easier.
Of course man. I'm speaking from my experiences and what I witnessed growing up. As I'm sure everyone else is. Those things just exponentially increase your shot imo. The sad truth is not everyone hits the genetic lottery so sometimes its easier said than done. I think it depends on your age too.All good things. Working hard and making good decisions is always optimal. However, I think there are plenty examples where doing those things isn't enough, and also plenty of examples where the wealth your family currently has plays as much or an even bigger role than those things.
Allow me to be very clear - MSNBC/CNN and the Democratic Party absolutely do not represent the far-left. They are centrist, which in America, really means center right, because over time, both the Democrats and Republicans have shifted to the right. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is an example of a far-left candidate and she, along with all the other lefties in independent media not only know that Trump is not a Putin puppet (he attacked Syria, which is a major Russian ally), but we saw the entire Russiagate ordeal as a massive waste of time and political capital. It is obvious that Trump and Putin didn't collaborate in order to give Trump the election in 2016; Trump definitely encouraged Russia to dig up dirt on his opponent, but the Russian government did so completely on its own. America has done far worse for other sovereign nations - we topple their elected leaders and install our own puppet dictators, so the meddling that Russia engaged in is child's play in comparison.The far left, and even some liberals, believe that Trump is a Russian agent who is serving Putin. I am not interested in either the far left or the far right as both engage in identity politics, which I think is very dangerous.
As far as Trump's base is concerned, conservatives were rejuvenated after losing two general elections so they came out and voted just as liberals were rejuvenated after losing two general elections to George W. Bush so they too came out and voted for Obama. What does this have to do with racism?
Also, Trump, having promised to repeal or alter many of Obama's policies throughout his campaign, is appeasing his constituency. I fail to see what this has to do with racism. This is politics 101.
As an educator, I agree. Unfortunately, schools in poor cities receive less funding because of low property taxes and hence less money is collected.
Even in schools in affluent neighborhoods, police have a presence and an "active shooter" drill that is practiced throughout the school year with and without students. During an in-service day, administrators simulated various scenarios, one of which included a retired police officer entering the building and shooting teachers with nerf guns in a school that is 90%+ white. Such is the time that we live in.
As I already mentioned a handful of pages back, I lived in several countries throughout my life and the fact is that America is the land of opportunity. There is no need to discuss the details again, but my family and I went from being on welfare 20 years ago to enjoying a middle-class life. You also worked hard in school, took advantage of opportunities, and managed to succeed. I would tell this story instead of the "everything about America is racist" one.
You read through all 100+ pages of the justice dept. reports and felt it was countered by a couple of Youtube clips?I have seen the reports, but I have also seen black conservatives like Larry Elder and Candace Owens provide opposing evidence, which is all they seem to do on YouTube. LOL.
Are you asking if it's normal for someone who works hard and makes good decisions to be rewarded with success? In my opinion, yes, that is normal.It certainly can be done, but to me the question is are these success stories the "normal" or default, or are they the outlier? How much Socioeconomic mobility is there in the US, how does it compare to other countries, and what is it looking like over time?
I think income inequality plays a large part in decreasing socioeconomic mobility, and in turn I think racism and institutional racism plays a large part in income inequality.
And I think it's quite obvious that this is not what he meantAre you asking if it's normal for someone who works hard and makes good decisions to be rewarded with success? In my opinion, yes, that is normal.
What I'm saying is that most people tend to view their own experiences as the default. Basically "I worked hard and made good choices, and I turned out successful, therefore if everybody simply worked hard and made good choices, they'd also be successful". I don't think this is always the case. There are plenty of people who are in poverty despite working hard and despite trying to make good choices.Are you asking if it's normal for someone who works hard and makes good decisions to be rewarded with success? In my opinion, yes, that is normal.
And even aside from the anecdotal evidence, there's plenty of mass-collected nationwide data that shows that people in certain categories (women, minorities), etc. often earn less even for doing the same job as their majority counterparts.What I'm saying is that most people tend to view their own experiences as the default. Basically "I worked hard and made good choices, and I turned out successful, therefore if everybody simply worked hard and made good choices, they'd also be successful". I don't think this is always the case. There are plenty of people who are in poverty despite working hard and despite trying to make good choices.
This isn't to try and excuse people from working hard and taking personal responsibility for their actions. Again, those things are very important. I just think there are other factors that play a part in income inequality, which in turn effects things like socioeconomic mobility.
Wait but your original question was whether "I worked hard and made good choices, and I turned out successful" was the norm, or the outlier, was it not? My response was that I think it's the norm. Do you agree?What I'm saying is that most people tend to view their own experiences as the default. Basically "I worked hard and made good choices, and I turned out successful, therefore if everybody simply worked hard and made good choices, they'd also be successful". I don't think this is always the case. There are plenty of people who are in poverty despite working hard and despite trying to make good choices.
This isn't to try and excuse people from working hard and taking personal responsibility for their actions. Again, those things are very important. I just think there are other factors that play a part in income inequality, which in turn effects things like socioeconomic mobility.
And I'm pretty sure everyone here is in agreement that what you described is wrong and should be phased out of society. This comes back to an earlier post I made in this thread: the next generation. We have the power, through our children, to help ensure that future generations do shit right. Y'all better be raising your kids real good!And even aside from the anecdotal evidence, there's plenty of mass-collected nationwide data that shows that people in certain categories (women, minorities), etc. often earn less even for doing the same job as their majority counterparts.
At this point, anyone who doesn't acknowledge it is just willfully ignoring the facts.
I think for a lot of people it's the norm, but for too many other people it's not the norm. This is where things like white privilege and family wealth come in.Wait but your original question was whether "I worked hard and made good choices, and I turned out successful" was the norm, or the outlier, was it not? My response was that I think it's the norm. Do you agree?
I think it also goes a step further into looking at our current social institutions and evaluating whether they're producing the outcomes we want. Maybe that means taking a more libertarian approach and cutting back on government programs that don't work. Or maybe it means taking a more hands on approach and adjusting or refining a government program so that it works like we intend it to. Maybe a mix of both strategies depending on the particular problem we're trying to address.We have the power, through our children, to help ensure that future generations do shit right. Y'all better be raising your kids real good!